The Last Day

[Bible2]

bibletruth469 said in post 99:

Much of these statements are false. For one, the last part of this summary, there is no such thing as an obedient church.

Actually, there is (Hebrews 5:9).

bibletruth469 said in post 99:

All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God according to the scripture .

That's right (Romans 3:23).

bibletruth469 said in post 99:

One can not lose his/ her salvation .

Actually, one can (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).

 

[Old Timer]

Actually, the Bible does teach that. For just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17).

To me that's like saying that there are two ways of salvation, Christ who is the life, the true vine as you have pointed out, and another tree of Israel?

My convictions differ in that Christ alone is the vine and life. The only way. Regardless of whether a person is a Jew or a Gentile.

For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

Again, my convictions would only differ in that regardless of being a Jew or a Gentile, the only way of salvation is through Jesus Christ. The true vine, and also the root and the offspring of David.

Similarly, all those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7,8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28) and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

The promised seed is Isaac, who is a type of Christ, not Jacob.

Jacob is Israel, blinded in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Your commentary is wonderful Bible2, our convictions differ slightly I think and that in itself is normal as far as I'm concerned. Thanks in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Old Timer]

Note that not all Jews are cut off, because there are believing Jews as well as believing Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:13). So only "some" (in the sense of not all) Jews are cut off from the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17a), because of their unbelief in Jesus (Romans 11:20) and his saving, New Covenant passover death on the Cross for our sins (1 Corinthians 5:7b, Matthew 26:28). Compare the Old Covenant cutting off of only some Israelites from Israel, if they failed to keep the Old Covenant passover (Numbers 9:13).

I agree that not all Jews are cut off, and that's because it doesn't depend upon being an Israelite, it depends upon whether or not a person trusts in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins.

Any person since the gospel was first sent out from Jerusalem is now saved on the basis of trusting in Jesus.

Also, Matthew 23:38 refers to the spiritual desolation of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37) insofar as it rejects Jesus (1 John 5:12b, cf. Galatians 4:25), whereas Matthew 23:39 refers to the future salvation of all the unbelieving elect Jews in Jerusalem at Jesus' 2nd coming, when they will see him in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29).

I also agree that all Israel shall be saved when the deliverer comes. Although right now that nation as a government rejects Christ as their King.

Also, Matthew 23:38, like Matthew 27:51, didn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem had become spiritually desolate. For it remained holy even after Jesus' death and resurrection. That's why the church continued to worship God there (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17). What the rending of the veil in Matthew 27:51 pictured was the opening of the holiest place in heaven to Christians (Hebrews 10:19-22, Hebrews 9:24) by the abolishing of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-27, Hebrews 10:9b) and the establishment of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:50-51).

The gospel went out to Israel first, and after their rulers continued in rejecting Christ, they were ultimately cut off. There's plenty of hard evidence of that and we know of its destruction in 70 AD.

The rending of the veil in Matthew 27:51 didn't mean that God no longer dwelt in the 2nd temple (as in Matthew 23:21). That's why (again) the church continued to worship God in the 2nd temple, even after Jesus' death and resurrection (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

Again, the gospel of the grace of God was offered to Israel first, even after they ultimately had him crucified.

Amazing Grace for sure, although they ultimately were cut off from that root, which is Jesus Christ.

 

[Old Timer]

By "heaven" do you mean the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven), to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) and will reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then, after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

If the church of God is the bride of Christ, which I am convinced that it is, then we have a type of that in the OT.

It goes back to Abraham and his only son Isaac. Isaac met his bride in the field and took her into his mothers tent. Paul teaches us that the mother of us all is the Jerusalem which is above, Mount Sion. Doesn't it make sense that this is where the Lord will take his bride where she shall become the Lamb's wife?

It makes sense when you realize the purpose for the meeting.

I agree and I believe that purpose is to present the church to himself without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.

They could prove vital for some believers.

I.e. the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

I don't see how a born again believer could believe the things you're speaking of here. God being defeated by Satan? God has broken his promises?

I can't see that for any person who has the Spirit of Christ within.

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

To me it's how could anyone but the Lord pull off the rapture? I was just talking about this with another person. How can anyone but the Lord raise the dead in Christ first and then have the entire body of Christ meet him in the air?

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16) so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

I completely agree that any believer may at any time be faced with the possibility of laying down their life, dying etc.

If we believe that the church is the Lamb's wife to be, those of whom it is said to be already dead and hidden in Christ with God, then I don't see their being taken through the time of Jacob's trouble, the time of testing which shall come upon the whole world.

 

[Old Timer]

And even though Israel is cut off and blinded in part, Paul teaches that God is able to graft them back in again. I believe this will be when that nation ultimately does come to repentance and calls upon the name of the Lord (Jesus Christ) and are then saved.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Speaking of Moses and Elijah who I do believe are the two future witnesses of Revelation, how were they raised?

They were raised bodily.

Actually, Elijah was not raised as to his body, because his body never has died, yet. Elijah was raptured to heaven unchanged in body.

Moses and Elijah are both in their same Adam flesh bodies, but while Elijah never has died in his body, Moses did die, was buried, and God did raise his body from the dead to unite it with his soul and take him to heaven, but his body is not transformed. His resurrection is the same as Lazarus' and others who died and were raised in their Adam flesh bodies and who died again.

Moses is in heaven with Elijah and the angels and Enoch, who is transformed in body and rules with the angels there.

Paul was left for dead outside the city of his stoning and went to Paradise, in the third heaven, but he said he did not know if he was in the body or out of it, so he may have been dead in body, and resurrected at that time, to die again, as many have been.

For sure and for certain Elijah and Moses will die after their 3 1/2 years of preaching in the streets of Jerusalem in the Great Tribulation, as eyewitnesses of Christ/Messiah's incarnation, life, death, resurrection, ascension, and Glory, but when they are resurrected after 3 1/2 days, they are transformed and ascend to heaven, for the glory, never to die in flesh again.

 

[bibletruth469]

I would add that scripture does show the church of God being completed, and that he shall present it to Himself a glorious church without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Isn't that what the marriage of the Lamb to his wife is all about? As for Israel, Paul tells us that they are blinded in part until the 'fulness' of the Gentiles be come in. That's when I believe the church will be complete, when the 'fulness' of the Gentiles come in.

I agree with you . The church will be raptured and we will all receive glorious bodies fit to live with Christ ,our savior , forever.

Yes, the church will be complete once the fulness of the Gentiles happens . Once that last gentile believer becomes saved, the rapture will take place and God will call His church home. It is all very exciting!

 

[tonyRebornInChrist]

Actually, there is (Hebrews 5:9).



That's right (Romans 3:23).



Actually, one can (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).

Bible2,

There are 3 distinct groups which the scriptures address throughout the Bible.

1. Jews
2. Christians
3. Gentiles

And lets also remember Bible2 that all the Bible is for you, but it does not all apply to you (2Tim 2:15)

Eternal salvation/security is biblical and sound doctrine.

A saved Christian is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ(Rom 3:28, 5:1, 10:9)

Once we are saved we, at that point are sealed.

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV)

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Once we are sealed we are eternally secure. (example: the 144,000 sealed Jews during the tribulation)

When God puts his seal on you, its a 'done deal'!

You've been purchased.

Actually, one can (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29)

Resting on the book of Hebrews for Christian doctrine is dangerous, Bible2. The book of Hebrews is not addressed to Christians but to the......Hebrews. The unsaved Jews of the last days (Heb 1:2).

Now bare in mind Bible2 that there will be no Christians in the time of 'Jacobs(Israel) Trouble' (1Cor 15:51-58, 1Thes 4:13-18, 2Thes 2:7)

But in the 7 year tribulation, we can see a distinct change. Firstly the church is never mentioned during the period of seals, trumpets and vials. If Christians were to go through the time of the great tribulation then the biblical teaching of eternal security is false as any one who worships the beast or takes his mark is damned to hell (Rev 14:9-11)

Its faith and works during the 7 years (the Church/Body of Christ is removed thus entering into a new faith and works based salvation)

Revelation 14:12 (KJV)

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Mat 24:13 is in reference to the Jewish populace during Jacobs(Israel)Trouble, and not Christians/Church.

We can see that when we rightly divide the Bible as the word of God tells as to (2Tim2:15) there are indeed different dispensations.

We(Christians) are sealed until the day of redemption(Eph 4:30), i.e The pretrib rapture or death.

Jacobs(Israels)Trouble or Daniels 70th week is to bring the Jews back into line and will also include the unbelieving Gentiles. The saints are tribulation saints who get saved during that period.

The Bible(KJV) teaches a pretrib rapture.

God Bless

 

[tonyRebornInChrist]

I agree with you . The church will be raptured and we will all receive glorious bodies fit to live with Christ ,our savior , forever.

Yes, the church will be complete once the fulness of the Gentiles happens . Once that last gentile believer becomes saved, the rapture will take place and God will call His church home. It is all very exciting!

For the lord himself shall descend from heaven

God Bless you bibletruth

 

[Old Timer]

Actually, Elijah was not raised as to his body, because his body never has died, yet. Elijah was raptured to heaven unchanged in body.

Moses and Elijah are both in their same Adam flesh bodies, but while Elijah never has died in his body, Moses did die, was buried, and God did raise his body from the dead to unite it with his soul and take him to heaven, but his body is not transformed. His resurrection is the same as Lazarus' and others who died and were raised in their Adam flesh bodies and who died again.

Moses is in heaven with Elijah and the angels and Enoch, who is transformed in body and rules with the angels there.

Paul was left for dead outside the city of his stoning and went to Paradise, in the third heaven, but he said he did not know if he was in the body or out of it, so he may have been dead in body, and resurrected at that time, to die again, as many have been.

For sure and for certain Elijah and Moses will die after their 3 1/2 years of preaching in the streets of Jerusalem in the Great Tribulation, as eyewitnesses of Christ/Messiah's incarnation, life, death, resurrection, ascension, and Glory, but when they are resurrected after 3 1/2 days, they are transformed and ascend to heaven, for the glory, never to die in flesh again.

Thank you yeshuasavedme. I should have said they 'are' raised bodily instead of they were raised. I was actually speaking of the future when they will be raised after the 3 1/2 days.

 

[coraline]

The "last day" was the last day of the Old Covenant.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The "last day" was the last day of the Old Covenant.

Where is that in the Word of God?
Chapter and verse, lay it all out a to b to c, or else just go away; you are really spouting nonsense here, with not one iota of biblical context or truth.

 

[Bible2]

Old Timer said in post 102:

To me that's like saying that there are two ways of salvation, Christ who is the life, the true vine as you have pointed out, and another tree of Israel?

No, there's only one way of salvation (John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12; 2 John 1:9).

John 15:5a refers to the body of Christ, of which all believing Jews and Gentiles are a part (1 Corinthians 12:13). The connection between them being part of the vine of the body of Christ, and them also being part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), is that the salvation which all believers have in Christ comes through the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

*******

Old Timer said in post 104:

If we believe that the church is the Lamb's wife to be, those of whom it is said to be already dead and hidden in Christ with God, then I don't see their being taken through the time of Jacob's trouble, the time of testing which shall come upon the whole world.

The time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including Gentile believers (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

 

[Bible2]

tonyRebornInChrist said in post 108:

Eternal salvation/security is biblical and sound doctrine.

Actually, the Bible doesn't teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin that they might commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) is performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation, and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There is no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). There is no assurance that they won't choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

tonyRebornInChrist said in post 108:

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV)

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Ephesians 1:13-14, like 2 Corinthians 1:22 and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of the Spirit which believers have received now is like a down payment until their future, bodily redemption into immortality at Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption isn't assured for every believer, just as, for example, a down payment on a house doesn't always assure that the future, purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit doesn't take away believers' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

tonyRebornInChrist said in post 108:

The book of Hebrews is not addressed to Christians but to the......Hebrews.

Some Christians think that Hebrews 10:26-29 isn't for Christians. But the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" saved people. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Saved people need to gather together and exhort each other so that no saved person will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that truly saved people, people who have truly been sanctified by Jesus' sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these saved people are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood and doing despite to the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of believers that are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood doesn't remit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

One way that a saved person could come to desire to commit sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable, and so fulfilling (in the short term), that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures believers that there is no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they sin without repentance.

tonyRebornInChrist said in post 108:

The unsaved Jews of the last days (Heb 1:2).

The last days began in the first century AD with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

tonyRebornInChrist said in post 108:

Firstly the church is never mentioned during the period of seals, trumpets and vials.

No significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason that the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

The church, in the general sense, will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

tonyRebornInChrist said in post 108:

Its faith and works during the 7 years (the Church/Body of Christ is removed thus entering into a new faith and works based salvation)

That isn't new. For initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

 

[coraline]

Where is that in the Word of God?
Chapter and verse, lay it all out a to b to c, or else just go away; you are really spouting nonsense here, with not one iota of biblical context or truth.

"Else just go away?"
Why are you so afraid to consider proper Biblical exegesis as opposed to your eisegesis?

Daniel 12:13 (NKJV) "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."​

The statements of verses 1, 7, 11, and 12 tie the resurrection to the time immediately following the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
What Daniel had written was well ingrained into the thinking of the Jews. We see from Jesus' discussion with Martha that Martha had no doubt as to when the resurrection would be.

John 11:23-24 (NKJV) Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."​

Jesus taught that the resurrection would happen on the last day:

John 6:39-40 (NKJV) "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."​

John 6:44 (NKJV) "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.​

John 6:54 (NKJV) "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.​

When is the last day? To the Jews, time was divided into two great periods, the Mosaic Age and the Messianic Age. The Messiah was viewed as one who would bring in a new world. The period of the Messiah was, therefore, correctly characterized by the Synagogue as "the world to come." All through the New Testament, we see two ages in contrast: "This age" and the "age to come."

1 Peter 1:20 (NKJV) He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you​

Jesus came during the last days of the age that was the Old Covenant age, the Jewish age. That age came to an end with the destruction of the temple in AD 70.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (NKJV) God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;​

Jesus was speaking in the last days. What last days? The last days of the Bible's "this age" -- the Old Covenant age. ~ from Berean Bible Church

 

[yeshuasavedme]

"Else just go away?

Yes, you are filled with nonsensical errors that are silly even to deal with, they are so far off Scripture.

Jesus was speaking in the last days. What last days? The last days of the Bible's "this age" -- the Old Covenant age. ~ from Berean Bible Church

That is total unbiblical doctrine. You cannot find a chapter and verse for it.

The Scripture teaches us about the week of millennial days. Jesus came in the end of the fourth millennial day, which the first and second days were the beginning of the week of, and the third and fourth were the mid week of, and the fifth and sixth were the end of the week of, and the seventh is the last day of.

The last day of the week begins with the great tribulation, but the Church will be removed from the midst of the earth, as that day starts with the darkness of the evening, which itself is a short evening, indeed, for the dawning of that Day itself is the return of Christ in Glory to reign over the earth for its very last day, as the shining Light in His Glory over Jerusalem for the entire thousand year Sabbath of earth's peace.

 

[coraline]

Yes, you are filled with nonsensical errors that are silly even to deal with, they are so far off Scripture.


That is total unbiblical doctrine. You cannot find a chapter and verse for it.

The Scripture teaches us about the week of millennial days. Jesus came in the end of the fourth millennial day, which the first and second days were the beginning of the week of, and the third and fourth were the mid week of, and the fifth and sixth were the end of the week of, and the seventh is the last day of.

The last day of the week begins with the great tribulation, but the Church will be removed from the midst of the earth, as that day starts with the darkness of the evening, which itself is a short evening, indeed, for the dawning of that Day itself is the return of Christ in Glory to reign over the earth for its very last day, as the shining Light in His Glory over Jerusalem for the entire thousand year Sabbath of earth's peace.

Suit yourself.

I'm gong to argue with you on a day off from work.

Bye bye now.

 

[parousia70]

The Scripture teaches us about the week of millennial days.

That is total unbiblical doctrine. You cannot find a chapter and verse for it.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

That is total unbiblical doctrine. You cannot find a chapter and verse for it.

Yes, I can, and so could you if you had a mind to discover the treasures of wisdom in the Word of God.

The Living Oracles are the Schoolmaster which teach us the doctrine of the millennial week, for one, and the prophets confirm and add to the doctrine.

Otherwise, the ancient writings which are included as Scripture in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church have more instruction on that Day.

The end of the seven thousand year week of days is typed in that Great Day, the Eighth Day, which is the New Beginning rehearsed on the eighth day after Tabernacles begins. For that reason of Adam no longer multiplying by the seed in his loins, circumcision was given as a sign to wear in the flesh of all male seed of Abraham, from Isaac, on, on the eighth day after birth signifying the cutting off of the Adam on the eighth millennial day, from multiplying.

Also, the sign of the sun being made as a Menorrah and as a tabernacle where the Glory of God dwells -yes, Scripture says so, in the Hebrew and in the Greek translation and in the Latin- and set in the heavens to rule over the day and night on the fourth day of creation week is a sign to type Christ, the Light and Glory seen, of the Father, come in flesh of a tabernacle made for His dwelling on the fourth millennial day.

Also, in Ezekiel's record the river coming out from the threshold of the temple measured by the angel becomes so wide after the four thousand cubits [each standing for the millennial days] that it is so wide one cannot cross over, signifying the Living Water/the Word of God, coming in flesh of second man after four thousand years, with the "Grace" released for man as the Word made flesh.
There is much more, but a student of the Word would search to discover the wisdom God has in it.

 

[parousia70]

Yes, I can, and so could you if you had a mind to discover the treasures of wisdom in the Word of God.

The Living Oracles are the Schoolmaster which teach us the doctrine of the millennial week, for one, and the prophets confirm and add to the doctrine.

Otherwise, the ancient writings which are included as Scripture in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church have more instruction on that Day.

The end of the seven thousand year week of days is typed in that Great Day, the Eighth Day, which is the New Beginning rehearsed on the eighth day after Tabernacles begins. For that reason of Adam no longer multiplying by the seed in his loins, circumcision was given as a sign to wear in the flesh of all male seed of Abraham, from Isaac, on, on the eighth day after birth signifying the cutting off of the Adam on the eighth millennial day, from multiplying.

Also, the sign of the sun being made as a Menorrah and as a tabernacle where the Glory of God dwells -yes, Scripture says so, in the Hebrew and in the Greek translation and in the Latin- and set in the heavens to rule over the day and night on the fourth day of creation week is a sign to type Christ, the Light and Glory seen, of the Father, come in flesh of a tabernacle made for His dwelling on the fourth millennial day.

Also, in Ezekiel's record the river coming out from the threshold of the temple measured by the angel becomes so wide after the four thousand cubits [each standing for the millennial days] that it is so wide one cannot cross over, signifying the Living Water/the Word of God, coming in flesh of second man after four thousand years, with the "Grace" released for man as the Word made flesh.
There is much more, but a student of the Word would search to discover the wisdom God has in it.

Proving my point... you can't find chapter and verse for it, otherwise you'd have cited it.