The Last Day

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 223:

So keep waiting on Jerusalem down here...but you're in for a BIG SURPRISE!!!

God still has regard for the land of Israel (Deuteronomy 32:43,49b), and Jerusalem especially (Isaiah 62:6-7, Psalms 122:6). Even during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-18), Jerusalem will still be considered by God to be the holy city (Revelation 11:2, Luke 21:24), the holy mountain (Daniel 11:45, Daniel 9:16). And after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming, it will be to the Mount of Olives just east of the walled Old City of Jerusalem that Jesus will descend (Zechariah 14:4-21, Acts 1:11-12). And then Jesus will rule the whole earth from the earthly Jerusalem during the millennium (Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-21, Revelation 20:4-6).

ebedmelech said in post 223:

It is you who listen to "nonsense"...thinking God is obligated to a covenant that is obsolete...thinking Jesus is coming down to rule for a thousand years when He is at the right hand of God right now.

The millennium will be under the New Covenant not the Old Covenant. Both covenants were made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). In the future the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21) and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12) which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will become part of the church at that time, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Bible2]

bibletruth469 said in post 231:

Christ will come back a second time in a very literal way, just like His first coming was in a literal way.

Amen.

Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b) in that just as at the end of his first coming he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

 

[bibletruth469]

Except of course for "Shortly, at hand, soon, about to take place, in a very very little while, without delay, etc".... those terms can never be "Literal" to the Dispy Correct. The CHURCH always has been Israel, and the Believing remnant of Israel has ALWAYS been THE CHURCH. It's the Dispies who "replace" one for the other, ignoring the fact that they are one in the same and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN. Jesus, and His JEWISH FOLLOWERS are the CHURCH (with gentiles grafted in of course) Jesus is also REIGNING KING OF ISRAEL. There is NO SEPARATION. Jesus Christ, Head of the Church/King of Israel. Since There is NO ISRAEL APART FROM CHRIST. and Since THERE IS NO CHURCH APART FROM CHRIST Therefore THERE IS NO ISRAEL APART FROM THE CHURCH

You are twisting words around. The Jewish people are a different group of people than the church of Jesus Christ. They will still keep their heritage. That's where you get a messianic Jew. Read Romans 11 closely.

The Gentile people are also a different group. To simplify things, once a Jew or gentile comes to a saving faith of Jesus Christ , they become part of the church of God and will be able to receive those blessings. One of them, will be the rapture which will occur and the true church, will partake of that blessing.

 

[ebedmelech]

God still has regard for the land of Israel (Deuteronomy 32:43,49b), and Jerusalem especially (Isaiah 62:6-7, Psalms 122:6). Even during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-18), Jerusalem will still be considered by God to be the holy city (Revelation 11:2, Luke 21:24), the holy mountain (Daniel 11:45, Daniel 9:16). And after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming, it will be to the Mount of Olives just east of the walled Old City of Jerusalem that Jesus will descend (Zechariah 14:4-21, Acts 1:11-12). And then Jesus will rule the whole earth from the earthly Jerusalem during the millennium (Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-21, Revelation 20:4-6).

No God doesn't. When you read scripture rightly, you understand that Israel was a *type* of heaven. All you have to do is understand Galatians 4:21-31 as Paul tells your this..and tells you Mt Sinai is Hagar. Scripture is consistent.

The millennium will be under the New Covenant not the Old Covenant. Both covenants were made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

Pretty much WRONG. You take all that God says.

*In Ephesians 2 Paul tells us Christ ABOLISHED the Old Covenant in His flesh. May you refrain from ever thinking God is honoring an obsolete covenant.

*In Hosea 2 God says He will call them a people who are not a people...(Gentiles).

*In Romans 2:28, 29 Pau says who the true Jew is.

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). In the future the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21) and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12) which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will become part of the church at that time, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

You're loaded with partial truths because you don't carry out what scripture consistently says. This is why you're jumping around with passages you assume teach what you say. Anytime you want to take each of your references and walk through them...I'm game.

 

[iamlamad]

Except you missed the boat. Paul's teaching here starts in Romans 9 when he says they are NOT all Israel who are descended from Israel.

It's also interesting you don't mention in Romans 11 where it says that the Jews and Gentiles are "one olive tree" grafted TOGETHER.

This is the error of futurism with their "two people of God" idea...it's quite erroneous. There's only one people of God...BOTTOM LINE!!!

Now they want to send money to herd Jews back to Israel to be slaughtered by some fictitious antichrist!

It won't happen!

You can live with the ostriches if you wish, classic ostrich syndrome with head buried in the Sand. ISRAEL EXISTS as a nation. There is then TWO Israel's, one is the Israel of God made up of those that accept Jesus as their Savior. The other is the NATION of Israel. Do you imagine God does not KNOW there is a NATION of Israel today?

The truth is, God made PROMISES to Abraham that He will not break. There is a FUTURE for Israel as a nation. JESUS will one day descend there. He will establish the Millennial Reign of Christ there. And although you find it hard to believe, will convince some of the Jews or Hebrews (all tribes) that HE IS THEIR MESSIAH. As we read in fairy tales, "and they lived happily ever after!

What you MISS is that the church is as a PARENTHESIS with an opening bracket and an ENDING bracket: that one day the door of the church (the born again experience) will CLOSE. And when time arrives at that ending parenthesis bracket, the age of the church, and the possibility of being born again will END. It will be the day that the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in. It will be the day those under the altar at the 5th seal have been waiting for, the FINAL martyr of the church age. This world will switch from the age of the church to the 70th week of Daniel. EVERYTHING will change. Half of the world will disappear, when Jesus takes His Bride out, because He will also take all children from the planet, even from families that know NOTHING about Christ. And because the Holy Spirit will go with the Bride, nothing will seem the same. Within weeks, the BEAST of Rev. 13 will be on every TV station with what will seem like answers.

I understand this is a part of the bible you just cannot believe - so ignore these scriptures, or twist them to mean something you CAN believe. You KNOW in your heart, that much of the scripture you SAY fits 70 AD really does not fit unless you change what it says. If you leave it as literal, it simply won't fit your theory. Since you cannot believe it, you are FORCED to change it from its literal meaning into something else that you can believe. All I can say is, this is VERY DANGEROUS. You will find out soon enough.

You would have to find an OLD map - say a 1920 map - not to see ISRAEL
on it.

LAMAD

 

[parousia70]

You can live with the ostriches if you wish, classic ostrich syndrome with head buried in the Sand. ISRAEL EXISTS as a nation.

Todays Israel exists as A Nation without ANY covenant relationship with God. A Nation of MULTI ETHNIC SECULARISTS with ZERO relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew people.

Do you imagine God does not KNOW there is a NATION of Israel today?

The UN Created Todays Israel, and I KNOW God does NOT give the name "Israel" to THAT band of Christ rejecting MULTI ETHNIC secularists who have zero relationship to the pre desolation Covenant people.

God made PROMISES to Abraham that He will not break.

and He Hasn't. but when you imagine that the Heirs to those promises are a bunch of MULTI ETHNIC SECULAR CHRITS REJECTORS with no relationship to Abraham AT ALL, then it is you with the ostrich syndrome my friend.

What you MISS is that the church is as a PARENTHESIS with an opening bracket and an ENDING bracket: that one day the door of the church (the born again experience) will CLOSE. And when time arrives at that ending parenthesis bracket, the age of the church, and the possibility of being born again will END.
LAMAD

My Bible says Christ receives His Glory IN THE CHURCH throughout ALL AGES. (Eph 3:21)

I know you have difficulty with that part of the Bible, and prefer to stick your head in the sand.

 

[ebedmelech]

Great, then tell us what future scripture you base His coming on. Thanks.

Try John 14:3 for one:
3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Also 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which is erroneously believed to be a "pre trib" rapture, but it's the resurrection when Jesus comes.

So you believe that Christ came in AD70 according to Matt 24 and you believe that Matt 25 is a future coming of Christ?

He came in judgment of Israel/Jerusalem. Read Matthew 24...was not Jerusalem surrounded by armies and destroyed and NOT ONE STONE remained of the temple?

And you base your belief that Christ is coming again on Matthew 25 right?

That's right! Matthew 25:31, 32:
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
There you have it! No "pretrib" rapture...resurrection and judgment...The last "day of the Lord"!

 

[iamlamad]

Todays Israel exists as A Nation without ANY covenant relationship with God. A Nation of MULTI ETHNIC SECULARISTS with ZERO relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew people.

Oh! So now you finally admit there IS an "Israel" outside of the church. You have done well to admit that.

Will you admit that Israel becoming a nation once again with their ancient language is a MIRACLE? Well, it was, whether or not you believe it. In all the history of this planet such a thing has never happened before.

Will you admit that the war fought with Israel's neighbors on all sides, as soon as Israel put up their flag, was won supernaturally by God? Well, it was, whether or not you believe it.

Do you believe that Israel becoming a nation is a direct fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy of the valley of dry bones? Well, it is whether or not you believe it.

God said He would make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for the world. And today it is. God still has unfulfilled promises to Israel, and will certainly fulfill them!

The UN Created Todays Israel, and I KNOW God does NOT give the name "Israel" to THAT band of Christ rejecting MULTI ETHNIC secularists who have zero relationship to the pre desolation Covenant people.

and He Hasn't. but when you imagine that the Heirs to those promises are a bunch of MULTI ETHNIC SECULAR CHRITS REJECTORS with no relationship to Abraham AT ALL, then it is you with the ostrich syndrome my friend.

What were YOU before you accepted Jesus? What were ANY of us before we accepted Jesus? Many In Israel today are descendants of Jacob. THEY are whom God made promises to. If you wish to call them names; if it makes you feel better, go ahead: but the truth remains, they are ISRAEL. In case you forgot, you are only grafted in as a wild branch. JESUS was a Jew! Our own salvation came from the Jews. And today there are many in Israel that love God and pray to Him daily. They are blinded as to Jesus as their Messiah, but the day will come when they will SEE Jesus face to face, and will then morn.

Did you just FORGET that Jesus told the disciples they would be judges over the 12 tribes of Israel? Do you imagine God took that promise back? If not, then WHEN will this become reality?

My Bible says Christ receives His Glory IN THE CHURCH throughout ALL AGES. (Eph 3:21)

I know you have difficulty with that part of the Bible, and prefer to stick your head in the sand.

It seems you have trouble UNDERSTANDING, Ephesians 3:21 is Paul giving PRAISE to God. OF COURSE God receives praise.

One CANNOT believe some of the Word of God and ignore the rest. I am a Gentile believer; one who is grafted in. I have NO PROBLEM with this part of the Bible, but neither do I ignore the rest of scripture. God said He is not done with Israel, and I believe Him.

LAMAD

 

[parousia70]

Oh! So now you finally admit there IS an "Israel" outside of the church. You have done well to admit that.

Israel is a name given by God through COVENANT. The MULTI ETHNIC SECULAR CHRIST REJECTORS who occupy the patch of Dirt in Palestine that they call "Israel" through UN Fiat, do so without any covenental authority from God.

So I guess I should re phrase - There is no COVENENTED Israel APART FROM CHRIST.

There are PLENTY of non covenented peoples who call themselves Israel, such as the Mormons of Salt Lake City, who have as much BIBLICAL right to that name as the MULTI ETHNIC CHRIST REJECTING SECULARISTS in palestine who claim the name as well.

Will you admit that Israel becoming a nation once again with their ancient language is a MIRACLE?

It was a UN Fiat, not a Miracle.

Will you admit that the war fought with Israel's neighbors on all sides, as soon as Israel put up their flag, was won supernaturally by God?

It was won through superior firepower supplied by the UN - Unless you are calling the UN God?

Do you believe that Israel becoming a nation is a direct fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy of the valley of dry bones?

No

Well, it is whether or not you believe it.

Prove it.

God said He would make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for the world. And today it is.

Not really... Israel is highly favored in the "eyes of the world" today... a few nations don't see eye to eye with them politically, but it is a far cry from a burdensome stone for the whole world.... you'll have to do better than that friend.

Many In Israel today are descendants of Jacob.

Prove it.

In case you forgot, you are only grafted in as a wild branch. JESUS was a Jew! Our own salvation came from the Jews.

wait... so you claim the Church IS Israel?

And today there are many in Israel that love God and pray to Him daily.

Prayers God ignores, for the ONLY WAY to the Father is THROUGH the son.

Those who say there is a way to the Father APART from the Son are apostate... Contrary to your assertions, God does NOT favor one stripe of Christ rejectors over another my friend.

 

[iamlamad]

Israel is a name given by God through COVENANT. The MULTI ETHNIC SECULAR CHRIST REJECTORS who occupy the patch of Dirt in Palestine that they call "Israel" through UN Fiat, do so without any covenental authority from God.

So I guess I should re phrase - There is no COVENENTED Israel APART FROM CHRIST.

There are PLENTY of non covenented peoples who call themselves Israel, such as the Mormons of Salt Lake City, who have as much BIBLICAL right to that name as the MULTI ETHNIC CHRIST REJECTING SECULARISTS in palestine who claim the name as well.

It was a UN Fiat, not a Miracle.

It was won through superior firepower supplied by the UN - Unless you are calling the UN God?

No

Prove it.

Not really... Israel is highly favored in the "eyes of the world" today... a few nations don't see eye to eye with them politically, but it is a far cry from a burdensome stone for the whole world.... you'll have to do better than that friend.

Prove it.

wait... so you claim the Church IS Israel?

Prayers God ignores, for the ONLY WAY to the Father is THROUGH the son.

Those who say there is a way to the Father APART from the Son are apostate... Contrary to your assertions, God does NOT favor one stripe of Christ rejectors over another my friend.

How strange you hate Israel, when Christ CAME from Israel. And when God tells us to pray for the PEACE of Jerusalem. And when we are suppose to LOVE our fellow man.

You need to do a little brushing up on the Old Testament:

Genesis 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Genesis 17
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Genesis 28
13 And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: “I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants.


Leviticus 26:44-45


44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the Lord their God.
45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:
I am the Lord.’”



Jeremiah 31
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.


The last time I looked, we STILL HAVE the sun for daylight, and we still have moonlight!

Jeremiah 16
14 “Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “that it shall no more be said, ‘The Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 15 but, ‘The Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.’ For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers.


HOW did Israel become a nation again? IT WAS GOD.




Ezekiel 36:24-2824 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.

28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

WHOSE land is it? God said it was THEIR OWN land.


Ezekiel 37:12
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.


Note that God calls it ISRAEL!



Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Joel 3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

Zech 12
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.


13:9
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Zech 14
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.



Ezek 48 entire chapter.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Here "holy city" is speaking of Jerusalem. One day God will bring EVERLASTING righteousness to Jerusalem. And one day, the Most Holy will be anointed there, in Jerusalem. And you seem to think that God has forgotten Israel!


It is very clear, God disagrees with you! I will believe God rather than man. God is NOT FINISHED with Israel. He made a promise to Abraham, and He will fulfill that promise even to those who have rejected Him. One day they will turn to Him.

By the way, Israel will come back to God THROUGH the SON. But first God must take them through the fire.

LAMAD

 

[Old Timer]

Try John 14:3 for one:
3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Also 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which is erroneously believed to be a "pre trib" rapture, but it's the resurrection when Jesus comes.

There are quite a few verses which speak of the coming of Christ. I'll add 2 Thess 2 where the man of sin is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming and Revelation 19 where it speaks of his coming and the defeat of the beast and the false prophet.

He came in judgment of Israel/Jerusalem. Read Matthew 24...was not Jerusalem surrounded by armies and destroyed and NOT ONE STONE remained of the temple?

Absolutely, although this wasn't a coming of Christ as described in Matthew 24, unless you'd like to explain when all of the events actually took place.

That's right! Matthew 25:31, 32:
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
There you have it! No "pretrib" rapture...resurrection and judgment...The last "day of the Lord"!

Just Christ coming and those on his right hand entering into the kingdom of God prepared from the foundation of the world.

 

[Old Timer]

How strange you hate Israel, when Christ CAME from Israel.

Of course the enemy hates Israel, and of course their plans are to wipe Israel off of the map.

Would you expect the enemy to love Israel?

Just being rhetorical, great reading your posts!

 

[Old Timer]

Luke 22 also speaks of the Kingdom of God and it's a nice connection with Matthew 25.

And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: for I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: for I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Until the Kingdom of God shall come..

Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Do you know when the Apostles will sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel? That's right, when Christ comes and then sits upon the throne of His glory, as Matthew 19 describes here..

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

When will the Lord Jesus Christ sit upon the throne of His glory?

When He comes in His glory as Matthew 25 teaches us.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

It's like connect the dots.

 

[ebedmelech]

There are quite a few verses which speak of the coming of Christ. I'll add 2 Thess 2 where the man of sin is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming and Revelation 19 where it speaks of his coming and the defeat of the beast and the false prophet.

Indeed. Something Paul clearly told THEM in Thessalonica to expect...not us:
2 Thessalonians 2:5:
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

Absolutely, although this wasn't a coming of Christ as described in Matthew 24, unless you'd like to explain when all of the events actually took place.

Let's not forget Luke's account in Luke 21:20-28 makes it very clear this was 70 AD. Just as Matthew, he point's out Jesus is quoting from Isaiah 13:9-11, where Jesus uses the apocalyptic language of judgment. This is language all through the OT prophets when God is prophesying judgment.

If you have never read Josephus history of the Jewish wars, you should. He was an eyewitness and he writes of the war with Rome as the city was surrounded and the temple destroyed.

Just Christ coming and those on his right hand entering into the kingdom of God prepared from the foundation of the world.

No. What you're not taking into account is this is THE RESURRECTION that does the separation. Revelation 20 makes that clear.

 

[Old Timer]

Indeed. Something Paul clearly told THEM in Thessalonica to expect...not us:
2 Thessalonians 2:5:
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

So you're saying that the Day of the Lord as described by the Apostle Paul in 2 Thess 2 has already come?

Paul warns the Christian church against those who say exactly what you're saying here... that that Day has already come.

Who should we believe, the living and powerful truth of the scriptures or somebody like yourself who insists that it's all in the past?

 

[Old Timer]

How about the Day of Jesus Christ?

Is that the same thing as the Day of the Lord?

Jesus is both Lord and Christ, isn't He?

 

[Old Timer]

No. What you're not taking into account is this is THE RESURRECTION that does the separation. Revelation 20 makes that clear.

The resurrection of the dead happens at Christ's coming (see 1 Cor 15) which you agree is future according to Matthew 25, so obviously it hasn't happened.. not yet.

Paul also warns the Christian church about those who say that the resurrection is past, that their words eat like a cancer and that they shipwreck the faith of some.

To me that's the dividing line.. those who actually believe that the word of God is living and powerful and able to speak clearly with respect to the things which are as well as to the things which shall be hereafter.

Those who insist that it's a history lesson written to the first century church (which rarely had copies of the scriptures), obviously can't see the living and powerful nature of the scriptures.

 

[ebedmelech]

The resurrection of the dead happens at Christ's coming (see 1 Cor 15) which you agree is future according to Matthew 25, so obviously it hasn't happened.. not yet.

Very familiar with 1 Corinthians 15 particularly verse 24 which says:
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

So what's your point?

Paul also warns the Christian church about those who say that the resurrection is past, that their words eat like a cancer and that they shipwreck the faith of some.
To me that's the dividing line.. those who actually believe that the word of God is living and powerful and able to speak clearly with respect to the things which are as well as to the things which shall be hereafter.

Those who insist that it's a history lesson written to the first century church (which rarely had copies of the scriptures), obviously can't see the living and powerful nature of the scriptures.

Yes...but they were saying it IN THAT TIME...so again what's your point? I'm saying the resurrection is one event that will resurrect both the saints and the unbelievers...as Jesus said 4 times in John 6.

There's no point to your argument. Paul even testifies who it was saying the resurrection had happened back in that time in 2 Timothy 2:16-18:
16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

I'm not saying the resurrection has happened.

 

[Old Timer]

Very familiar with 1 Corinthians 15 particularly verse 24 which says:
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

So what's your point?

You referenced Rev 20 with respect to the resurrection of the dead and I simply pointed out that the resurrection of the dead could not have happened yet because Christ has not yet come.

Yes...but they were saying it IN THAT TIME...so again what's your point? I'm saying the resurrection is one event that will resurrect both the saints and the unbelievers...as Jesus said 4 times in John 6.

The point is that the word of God is living and powerful, not some stagnant history lesson for the first century church alone. All you are doing is insisting that the word of God is not for us and only for a first century church which didn't even have the written word of God most of the time.

There's no point to your argument. Paul even testifies who it was saying the resurrection had happened back in that time in 2 Timothy 2:16-18:
16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

I'm not saying the resurrection has happened.

Wonderful, then Christ hasn't come either, and that Day is approaching, it's not in the past.

 

[ebedmelech]

You referenced Rev 20 with respect to the resurrection of the dead and I simply pointed out that the resurrection of the dead could not have happened yet because Christ has not yet come.

Of course I referenced it with respect to resurredtion, but I never said the resurrection happened.

The point is that the word of God is living and powerful, not some stagnant history lesson for the first century church alone. All you are doing is insisting that the word of God is not for us and only for a first century church which didn't even have the written word of God most of the time.

Okay...that's a given...but what's your point? When one can see a prophecy that was historically fulfilled, it gives testimony that God's word is sure, and can be trusted...that in itself is quite powerful. The Psalm says the "heavens declare the glory of God...", it's been doing that quite a long time. I mention this just as a point that you're not logical in your argument. For instance, that God brought Israel out of Egypt serves as a historical testimony of fact!

Wonderful, then Christ hasn't come either, and that Day is approaching, it's not in the past.

Here's where mincing words without context becomes the issue. Was it not Jesus that said in Matthew 23:37-39:
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

The "house" left desolate is temple, as Jesus said this in the temple. It is as He leaves the temple that Matthew 24 comes into play, because Jesus has told THEM not one stone of the temple would be left upon another. WE KNOW that happened in 70 AD...it is NOT a future event. Jesus even gave the disciples the signs they would expect to tell them to leave Jerusalem!

What's remarkable is that you read of these things, see they have happened, yet ignore that they are fulfilled.