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The Lake Of Fire
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Are you a flame of fire for God, Jude? Does your heart not burn within you upon hearing the word?
It's the language of passion, Jude. The Lake of Fire is the image, the poetic apocalyptic metaphor of God's burning love for His creation.
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Yes everlasting (ainios) punishment for those who rejected Him in the time given them- one human lifetime!
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Well mixing up teh different judgments (the bema for believers and the thronos for the lost) only makes you look even less knowledgeable about Scripture.
1 Cor. 3 is for believers to judge their WORKS done in the Lords name. The thronos at the end of time is to judge people and execute their sentence for rejecting Christ! One is for works and one is for people.
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Well as the lake of fire and heaven were unknown concepts until God introduced thm around the time of David, it is not the entirety. God destroys this present creation and recreates it after he casts the lost into the lake of fire!
Once again the most common word used by Greeks and written in greek both in koine and modern greek for eternal-everlasting- forever is aionios! When not modified by a statement that limits it time span- scholars world wide for millenia have interpreted it as eternal!
Depends what you are looking for when you talk about first fruits.
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Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:
1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:
1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
It is the sins of "wood, hay & stubble" that are to be burned away:
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
Whereas silver represents the redemption of Christ & those of silver are those who have faith in it, wood, hay & stubble have no silver in them, hence such have no faith.
The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.
Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."
Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.
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Do you know the foundation for the adjective aionios?
It is the noun aion/eon.
You think an adjective holds greater scope than the noun upon which it rests.
Sorry no cigar for you!
Furthermore, there are precisely two passages of Scripture using the word aidios, both rooted in the Aidios One.
"This IS aionios zoe that we may know You..."
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Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:
Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:
How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.
ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:
could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?
12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
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There is zero indication in the canon that there is repentance once an unbeliever dies! By implication there is strong evidence there isn't!
Luke 16:
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
And aionios is translated by all except paraphrasers as eternal. Once again you have the greek speaking world against you and nearly all Greek scholars against you that aionios kolasis is only temporary!
In order to promote heresy- you have trashed the rules by which we understand words and sentences.
And no I do not limit the Holy One of Israel! He limited HImself when He declared His etwrnal judgments both good and bad. You have trashed His holiness and Word as written by your promotion of false doctrine!
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1 Cor 3 starts with all mankind and then limits it to believers only! That is known by the phrase "now if any man build upon this" This lets us know that one is saved!
And if one is cast into prison until they pay the penalty- that was a life sentence. YOu could not work off your debt in prison in Jesus' day. If one were to pay their devbt off, they became an indentured servant! So you are misunderstanding gehenna!
Once again I have read the so called proofs and 213 aquestions w/o answers and found them lacking for their taking passages out of context.
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And again! I have repeatedly told you aionios can be a limited duration if modifed. All the examples you gave on your other site are passages that describe limited durations! It is you and your other fellows that have decided that aionios also must be of limited duration in the lake of fire and can only mean eternal when referring to heaven! YOu stand in stark opposition to th evast super majority of the greek speaking world and greek translating world! And like a Russellite or Mormon you have believed the originator of this fallacy that there is some vast super conspiracy that has blinded the 99+% of the believing world into thinking that aionios when it comes to punishment means eternal !
Sorry, still waiting for a verse that shows there is repentance in the lake of fire!
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Once again you fail grammar!
If aionios modified aion- then no it may not be greater than the noun! But when it is used to modify words like ZOE or KOLASIS it is setting the duration of both!
Yes aionios ZOE is based on knowing Jesus and the Father.
Aionios Kolasis is based on rejecting Christ and the Father!
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Well I wonder wehy He did not use aiodios to describe life in heaven if it is a superior word? Maybe you should instruct God on His poor choices!
Aidios is used exactly twice! Once to describe Gods Powers and the other to describe the chains of darkness binding the angels who fell in Genesis 6.
If the angels are going to be restored as the fallacious hypothesis you and others hold to- why does God need to have eternal chains of darkness binding them?
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Strong evidence? Luke 16? Nah.
Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:
"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)
The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :
Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things
"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.
When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?
The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.
" “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "
" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"
The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.
In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.
Tom Talbott said:
"As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."
How to Read the Bible from a Universalist Perspective
We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:
Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.
Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35
Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
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Huh? How does that address or refute anything i posted:
Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:
1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:
1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
It is the sins of "wood, hay & stubble" that are to be burned away:
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
Whereas silver represents the redemption of Christ & those of silver are those who have faith in it, wood, hay & stubble have no silver in them, hence such have no faith.
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Jesus could have said it was a "life sentence." But instead he said they will be there "until" the condition is met. Considering He didn't use the language which you opine, when He easily could have done so, i'd say He doesn't support your doctrine. In fact His language implies He doesn't:
The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.
Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."
Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.
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