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The Lake Of Fire
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Dear Lost: If that is "good enough" for you rest safe and secure from all alarm.
Do you know how many books there are in the Bible (including Apocrypha)?
Skip them all and keep your eyes closed.
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Do not confuse every fire with the lake of r fire.
Teh lake of fire is an eternal punishment for people. Not a judge of works or a trier of souls! It is the eternal destination for the lost souls who rejected Christ!
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The Hell of Heaven -Jan Antonsson-
I woke abruptly from an alcohol-induced haze; liquid courage enough to ram my car into a freeway abutment. Multi-hued flames surrounded me, invaded me, but there was no pain. Ribbons of color danced around and in me. Suspended in, buoyed by flame, I attempted a step. Like walking on a cushion of air, there was no sense of movement. Profound beauty mingled with terror and anguish. I wondered at the absence of demons and the screams of tormented souls. “No one will believe me,” I thought, trying to believe it myself.
“Welcome, Driscoll,” a voice whispered. “We’ve been waiting for you. Your place is prepared.”
Terrified, I cried out, “Where am I, who are you?”
“In hell, of course.” I am the hell which you so dreaded. How does it feel?”
“Um, well, it isn’t exactly as I’d imagined it. This isn’t what the preacher described last Sunday.”
“No, it’s not. He is ignorant and blind. He lied to you, though he doesn’t really know it. He only echoed his professors in seminary.”
If this is hell, are you the devil?
As beautiful as a well-tuned bell, a deep, joyful chuckle vibrated within and around me.
“No, I’m afraid you have the wrong guy, my friend.”
“Who then?”
“Do you remember the text your pastor harped on for so long last Sunday?”
“You mean the ‘lake of fire’ text?”
“The very one. That lake is not a place. It is Me.”
“Not sure I’m following you.”
“I AM the One you call God. I am the Creator and the Destroyer of all that is unhealthy and destructive within you. Hell is coming home to Me, to dwell in the fire that is Me, the all-consuming fire.”
I shuddered, terrified suddenly of this Voice. Would hell be less terrifying?
“Are you sending me to hell?”
“Well, my beloved friend, you are in hell already. Don’t you see the fire?”
“Well, yes, but it doesn’t hurt.”
Again, His chuckle reverberated within me.
“Most get it wrong, I’m afraid. They mean well, but they interpret the writings of the prophets and the words of my Son in a way that gives them power over others. Think of it this way. Didn’t the terror of hell keep you on the straight and narrow for a long time?”
“Yes.”
“Priests and preachers, popes and prelates all discovered that their flocks were more compliant when they believed that their particular church was the only path to Me. If they kept them terrified of an eternal torment, they sinned less and kept the church coffers full.”
“So, no hell?”
“Not exactly. Remember the Lake of Fire. But there is definitely no eternal hell…”
“You mean I won’t burn forever?”
“Let me ask you a question. Did the police in Portland where you lived shoot people if they were five miles an hour over the speed limit?”
“No.”
“Why then would I send a beloved child of mine to suffer in torment for eternity for a sin? Your courts tried to keep the punishment somewhat in balance with the crime, right?”
“Yes, I suppose so, though many times justice depended on the color of skin or the wealth of the person accused.”
“Yes, yes, but I’m not talking about that kind of inequality. I’m talking about justice based on the balance of crime and punishment.”
“You mean the punishment fits the crime?”
“Exactly. You were gay, right?”
“Yes.”
“So, if homosexuality is a missing of the mark, what you call a sin, for each homosexual act or thought, how long should I punish you to make justice balance?”
“I have no idea.”
“Come on, give me a number—five years, 50, 50,000, 50 million?”
“Well, to make it interesting, let’s say 50 million.”
“Fair enough. So let’s say there are 10,000 events for which I punish you for 50 million times each. That totals 500 billion years. Is that eternity?”
“Not even close.”
“So we can say that all of your sins of that kind don’t total eternity. How about if we throw in all the rest of your sins?”
“I don’t know how many that would be.”
“Would it equal eternity, if we could put a number to it?”
“Well, probably not…no, it couldn’t, because eternity is infinite and my sins are not.”
“Exactly!” I heard the smile in His voice. “Now let’s talk about purpose. Why would I want to punish you at all?”
“Well, You’re a holy and just God. You have to punish those who disobey you?”
“That makes me so sad. If one of your children wrote on the wall with a crayon, would you hold her hand to the burner of the stove?”
“No, of course not! I’d be a monster.”
“Why would you think you’re better than Me?”
I was thunderstruck. Why indeed? How could I, a mere mortal think I was more compassionate than the God of love? I fell on my face. “Do to me according to Your will and Your goodness,” I wept. My body trembled with heart-wrenching sobs as the realization of His love surged over and within me. I drowned in His love, knew His infinite compassion and mercy. It felt as if I were disintegrating into my component atoms, dissolving in the chrysalis of Him, being reorganized from a crawling caterpillar into a creature designed to fly. Oddly, there was no pain, only joy and blessed relief. The fire didn’t fade, but now my spirit danced in harmony with it. I had no sense of passing time. Finally, I felt arms around me, folding me against a mighty chest. I heard His heartbeat, felt His warmth.
“Welcome home, my beloved son. I’ve longed for this moment from all eternity past. It’s so good to have you here.”
Then I was at peace. I am still at peace, content to dwell within His everlasting arms. He is that for which I searched, longed for in all the twinings of body that never satisfied. As the poet said,
Naught satisfies thee,
Which satisfies not Me.
I woke abruptly from an alcohol-induced haze; liquid courage enough to ram my car into a freeway abutment. Multi-hued flames surrounded me, invaded me, but there was no pain. Ribbons of color danced around and in me. Suspended in, buoyed by flame, I attempted a step. Like walking on a cushion of air, there was no sense of movement. Profound beauty mingled with terror and anguish. I wondered at the absence of demons and the screams of tormented souls. “No one will believe me,” I thought, trying to believe it myself.
“Welcome, Driscoll,” a voice whispered. “We’ve been waiting for you. Your place is prepared.”
Terrified, I cried out, “Where am I, who are you?”
“In hell, of course.” I am the hell which you so dreaded. How does it feel?”
“Um, well, it isn’t exactly as I’d imagined it. This isn’t what the preacher described last Sunday.”
“No, it’s not. He is ignorant and blind. He lied to you, though he doesn’t really know it. He only echoed his professors in seminary.”
If this is hell, are you the devil?
As beautiful as a well-tuned bell, a deep, joyful chuckle vibrated within and around me.
“No, I’m afraid you have the wrong guy, my friend.”
“Who then?”
“Do you remember the text your pastor harped on for so long last Sunday?”
“You mean the ‘lake of fire’ text?”
“The very one. That lake is not a place. It is Me.”
“Not sure I’m following you.”
“I AM the One you call God. I am the Creator and the Destroyer of all that is unhealthy and destructive within you. Hell is coming home to Me, to dwell in the fire that is Me, the all-consuming fire.”
I shuddered, terrified suddenly of this Voice. Would hell be less terrifying?
“Are you sending me to hell?”
“Well, my beloved friend, you are in hell already. Don’t you see the fire?”
“Well, yes, but it doesn’t hurt.”
Again, His chuckle reverberated within me.
“Most get it wrong, I’m afraid. They mean well, but they interpret the writings of the prophets and the words of my Son in a way that gives them power over others. Think of it this way. Didn’t the terror of hell keep you on the straight and narrow for a long time?”
“Yes.”
“Priests and preachers, popes and prelates all discovered that their flocks were more compliant when they believed that their particular church was the only path to Me. If they kept them terrified of an eternal torment, they sinned less and kept the church coffers full.”
“So, no hell?”
“Not exactly. Remember the Lake of Fire. But there is definitely no eternal hell…”
“You mean I won’t burn forever?”
“Let me ask you a question. Did the police in Portland where you lived shoot people if they were five miles an hour over the speed limit?”
“No.”
“Why then would I send a beloved child of mine to suffer in torment for eternity for a sin? Your courts tried to keep the punishment somewhat in balance with the crime, right?”
“Yes, I suppose so, though many times justice depended on the color of skin or the wealth of the person accused.”
“Yes, yes, but I’m not talking about that kind of inequality. I’m talking about justice based on the balance of crime and punishment.”
“You mean the punishment fits the crime?”
“Exactly. You were gay, right?”
“Yes.”
“So, if homosexuality is a missing of the mark, what you call a sin, for each homosexual act or thought, how long should I punish you to make justice balance?”
“I have no idea.”
“Come on, give me a number—five years, 50, 50,000, 50 million?”
“Well, to make it interesting, let’s say 50 million.”
“Fair enough. So let’s say there are 10,000 events for which I punish you for 50 million times each. That totals 500 billion years. Is that eternity?”
“Not even close.”
“So we can say that all of your sins of that kind don’t total eternity. How about if we throw in all the rest of your sins?”
“I don’t know how many that would be.”
“Would it equal eternity, if we could put a number to it?”
“Well, probably not…no, it couldn’t, because eternity is infinite and my sins are not.”
“Exactly!” I heard the smile in His voice. “Now let’s talk about purpose. Why would I want to punish you at all?”
“Well, You’re a holy and just God. You have to punish those who disobey you?”
“That makes me so sad. If one of your children wrote on the wall with a crayon, would you hold her hand to the burner of the stove?”
“No, of course not! I’d be a monster.”
“Why would you think you’re better than Me?”
I was thunderstruck. Why indeed? How could I, a mere mortal think I was more compassionate than the God of love? I fell on my face. “Do to me according to Your will and Your goodness,” I wept. My body trembled with heart-wrenching sobs as the realization of His love surged over and within me. I drowned in His love, knew His infinite compassion and mercy. It felt as if I were disintegrating into my component atoms, dissolving in the chrysalis of Him, being reorganized from a crawling caterpillar into a creature designed to fly. Oddly, there was no pain, only joy and blessed relief. The fire didn’t fade, but now my spirit danced in harmony with it. I had no sense of passing time. Finally, I felt arms around me, folding me against a mighty chest. I heard His heartbeat, felt His warmth.
“Welcome home, my beloved son. I’ve longed for this moment from all eternity past. It’s so good to have you here.”
Then I was at peace. I am still at peace, content to dwell within His everlasting arms. He is that for which I searched, longed for in all the twinings of body that never satisfied. As the poet said,
Naught satisfies thee,
Which satisfies not Me.
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mmksparbud
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Deu_4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deu_9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
It is not the wicked that will be dwelling in the devouring fire:
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; We will be able to stand in the presence of a Holy God and not be destroyed:
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
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It is amazing the things you can learn on Christian Boards!
F.L. has been in discussion with a wee lad who posts the Lord is not literally fire & suggests I know not what “literally” means.
My response=
“Our God is [a] fire.” He is literally in essence fire! He is LOVE literally. He is Spirit literally. He is Light literally. He is Fire literally. He is Saviour literally.
lit·er·al·ly=
In a literal manner or sense; exactly.
Synonyms=
Exactly, precisely, actually, really, truly;
Used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true.
Dear lad:
Are you suggesting the essence of our God is not literal? Perhaps His amazing love is not literal? You think He is a potential Saviour, and certainly must not in essence be Saviour, oh no, our God the Saviour of all mankind is not literal!
Our God is literally in actuality, exactly & precisely in essence,>>>>>>>
LOVE>>>SPIRIT>>>LIGHT>>>SAVIOUR>>>FIRE
F.L. has been in discussion with a wee lad who posts the Lord is not literally fire & suggests I know not what “literally” means.
My response=
“Our God is [a] fire.” He is literally in essence fire! He is LOVE literally. He is Spirit literally. He is Light literally. He is Fire literally. He is Saviour literally.
lit·er·al·ly=
In a literal manner or sense; exactly.
Synonyms=
Exactly, precisely, actually, really, truly;
Used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true.
Dear lad:
Are you suggesting the essence of our God is not literal? Perhaps His amazing love is not literal? You think He is a potential Saviour, and certainly must not in essence be Saviour, oh no, our God the Saviour of all mankind is not literal!
Our God is literally in actuality, exactly & precisely in essence,>>>>>>>
LOVE>>>SPIRIT>>>LIGHT>>>SAVIOUR>>>FIRE
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- Jul 2, 2018
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I remember you bringing this up before.
At that time my understanding of it was that it was only believers whose works were being tested to determine what rewards they may have earned in their Christian walk. I can see it being connected to the bigger picture now. Could you elaborate on how you see this working? Assuming you have had more time to reflect on it. I notice now that it begins with "Every man's work shall be made manifest..." as opposed to only believers.
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The Hell of Heaven -Jan Antonsson-
I woke abruptly from an alcohol-induced haze; liquid courage enough to ram my car into a freeway abutment. Multi-hued flames surrounded me, invaded me, but there was no pain. Ribbons of color danced around and in me. Suspended in, buoyed by flame, I attempted a step. Like walking on a cushion of air, there was no sense of movement. Profound beauty mingled with terror and anguish. I wondered at the absence of demons and the screams of tormented souls. “No one will believe me,” I thought, trying to believe it myself.
“Welcome, Driscoll,” a voice whispered. “We’ve been waiting for you. Your place is prepared.”
Terrified, I cried out, “Where am I, who are you?”
“In hell, of course.” I am the hell which you so dreaded. How does it feel?”
“Um, well, it isn’t exactly as I’d imagined it. This isn’t what the preacher described last Sunday.”
“No, it’s not. He is ignorant and blind. He lied to you, though he doesn’t really know it. He only echoed his professors in seminary.”
If this is hell, are you the devil?
As beautiful as a well-tuned bell, a deep, joyful chuckle vibrated within and around me.
“No, I’m afraid you have the wrong guy, my friend.”
“Who then?”
“Do you remember the text your pastor harped on for so long last Sunday?”
“You mean the ‘lake of fire’ text?”
“The very one. That lake is not a place. It is Me.”
“Not sure I’m following you.”
“I AM the One you call God. I am the Creator and the Destroyer of all that is unhealthy and destructive within you. Hell is coming home to Me, to dwell in the fire that is Me, the all-consuming fire.”
I shuddered, terrified suddenly of this Voice. Would hell be less terrifying?
“Are you sending me to hell?”
“Well, my beloved friend, you are in hell already. Don’t you see the fire?”
“Well, yes, but it doesn’t hurt.”
Again, His chuckle reverberated within me.
“Most get it wrong, I’m afraid. They mean well, but they interpret the writings of the prophets and the words of my Son in a way that gives them power over others. Think of it this way. Didn’t the terror of hell keep you on the straight and narrow for a long time?”
“Yes.”
“Priests and preachers, popes and prelates all discovered that their flocks were more compliant when they believed that their particular church was the only path to Me. If they kept them terrified of an eternal torment, they sinned less and kept the church coffers full.”
“So, no hell?”
“Not exactly. Remember the Lake of Fire. But there is definitely no eternal hell…”
“You mean I won’t burn forever?”
“Let me ask you a question. Did the police in Portland where you lived shoot people if they were five miles an hour over the speed limit?”
“No.”
“Why then would I send a beloved child of mine to suffer in torment for eternity for a sin? Your courts tried to keep the punishment somewhat in balance with the crime, right?”
“Yes, I suppose so, though many times justice depended on the color of skin or the wealth of the person accused.”
“Yes, yes, but I’m not talking about that kind of inequality. I’m talking about justice based on the balance of crime and punishment.”
“You mean the punishment fits the crime?”
“Exactly. You were gay, right?”
“Yes.”
“So, if homosexuality is a missing of the mark, what you call a sin, for each homosexual act or thought, how long should I punish you to make justice balance?”
“I have no idea.”
“Come on, give me a number—five years, 50, 50,000, 50 million?”
“Well, to make it interesting, let’s say 50 million.”
“Fair enough. So let’s say there are 10,000 events for which I punish you for 50 million times each. That totals 500 billion years. Is that eternity?”
“Not even close.”
“So we can say that all of your sins of that kind don’t total eternity. How about if we throw in all the rest of your sins?”
“I don’t know how many that would be.”
“Would it equal eternity, if we could put a number to it?”
“Well, probably not…no, it couldn’t, because eternity is infinite and my sins are not.”
“Exactly!” I heard the smile in His voice. “Now let’s talk about purpose. Why would I want to punish you at all?”
“Well, You’re a holy and just God. You have to punish those who disobey you?”
“That makes me so sad. If one of your children wrote on the wall with a crayon, would you hold her hand to the burner of the stove?”
“No, of course not! I’d be a monster.”
“Why would you think you’re better than Me?”
I was thunderstruck. Why indeed? How could I, a mere mortal think I was more compassionate than the God of love? I fell on my face. “Do to me according to Your will and Your goodness,” I wept. My body trembled with heart-wrenching sobs as the realization of His love surged over and within me. I drowned in His love, knew His infinite compassion and mercy. It felt as if I were disintegrating into my component atoms, dissolving in the chrysalis of Him, being reorganized from a crawling caterpillar into a creature designed to fly. Oddly, there was no pain, only joy and blessed relief. The fire didn’t fade, but now my spirit danced in harmony with it. I had no sense of passing time. Finally, I felt arms around me, folding me against a mighty chest. I heard His heartbeat, felt His warmth.
“Welcome home, my beloved son. I’ve longed for this moment from all eternity past. It’s so good to have you here.”
Then I was at peace. I am still at peace, content to dwell within His everlasting arms. He is that for which I searched, longed for in all the twinings of body that never satisfied. As the poet said,
Naught satisfies thee,
Which satisfies not Me.
I woke abruptly from an alcohol-induced haze; liquid courage enough to ram my car into a freeway abutment. Multi-hued flames surrounded me, invaded me, but there was no pain. Ribbons of color danced around and in me. Suspended in, buoyed by flame, I attempted a step. Like walking on a cushion of air, there was no sense of movement. Profound beauty mingled with terror and anguish. I wondered at the absence of demons and the screams of tormented souls. “No one will believe me,” I thought, trying to believe it myself.
“Welcome, Driscoll,” a voice whispered. “We’ve been waiting for you. Your place is prepared.”
Terrified, I cried out, “Where am I, who are you?”
“In hell, of course.” I am the hell which you so dreaded. How does it feel?”
“Um, well, it isn’t exactly as I’d imagined it. This isn’t what the preacher described last Sunday.”
“No, it’s not. He is ignorant and blind. He lied to you, though he doesn’t really know it. He only echoed his professors in seminary.”
If this is hell, are you the devil?
As beautiful as a well-tuned bell, a deep, joyful chuckle vibrated within and around me.
“No, I’m afraid you have the wrong guy, my friend.”
“Who then?”
“Do you remember the text your pastor harped on for so long last Sunday?”
“You mean the ‘lake of fire’ text?”
“The very one. That lake is not a place. It is Me.”
“Not sure I’m following you.”
“I AM the One you call God. I am the Creator and the Destroyer of all that is unhealthy and destructive within you. Hell is coming home to Me, to dwell in the fire that is Me, the all-consuming fire.”
I shuddered, terrified suddenly of this Voice. Would hell be less terrifying?
“Are you sending me to hell?”
“Well, my beloved friend, you are in hell already. Don’t you see the fire?”
“Well, yes, but it doesn’t hurt.”
Again, His chuckle reverberated within me.
“Most get it wrong, I’m afraid. They mean well, but they interpret the writings of the prophets and the words of my Son in a way that gives them power over others. Think of it this way. Didn’t the terror of hell keep you on the straight and narrow for a long time?”
“Yes.”
“Priests and preachers, popes and prelates all discovered that their flocks were more compliant when they believed that their particular church was the only path to Me. If they kept them terrified of an eternal torment, they sinned less and kept the church coffers full.”
“So, no hell?”
“Not exactly. Remember the Lake of Fire. But there is definitely no eternal hell…”
“You mean I won’t burn forever?”
“Let me ask you a question. Did the police in Portland where you lived shoot people if they were five miles an hour over the speed limit?”
“No.”
“Why then would I send a beloved child of mine to suffer in torment for eternity for a sin? Your courts tried to keep the punishment somewhat in balance with the crime, right?”
“Yes, I suppose so, though many times justice depended on the color of skin or the wealth of the person accused.”
“Yes, yes, but I’m not talking about that kind of inequality. I’m talking about justice based on the balance of crime and punishment.”
“You mean the punishment fits the crime?”
“Exactly. You were gay, right?”
“Yes.”
“So, if homosexuality is a missing of the mark, what you call a sin, for each homosexual act or thought, how long should I punish you to make justice balance?”
“I have no idea.”
“Come on, give me a number—five years, 50, 50,000, 50 million?”
“Well, to make it interesting, let’s say 50 million.”
“Fair enough. So let’s say there are 10,000 events for which I punish you for 50 million times each. That totals 500 billion years. Is that eternity?”
“Not even close.”
“So we can say that all of your sins of that kind don’t total eternity. How about if we throw in all the rest of your sins?”
“I don’t know how many that would be.”
“Would it equal eternity, if we could put a number to it?”
“Well, probably not…no, it couldn’t, because eternity is infinite and my sins are not.”
“Exactly!” I heard the smile in His voice. “Now let’s talk about purpose. Why would I want to punish you at all?”
“Well, You’re a holy and just God. You have to punish those who disobey you?”
“That makes me so sad. If one of your children wrote on the wall with a crayon, would you hold her hand to the burner of the stove?”
“No, of course not! I’d be a monster.”
“Why would you think you’re better than Me?”
I was thunderstruck. Why indeed? How could I, a mere mortal think I was more compassionate than the God of love? I fell on my face. “Do to me according to Your will and Your goodness,” I wept. My body trembled with heart-wrenching sobs as the realization of His love surged over and within me. I drowned in His love, knew His infinite compassion and mercy. It felt as if I were disintegrating into my component atoms, dissolving in the chrysalis of Him, being reorganized from a crawling caterpillar into a creature designed to fly. Oddly, there was no pain, only joy and blessed relief. The fire didn’t fade, but now my spirit danced in harmony with it. I had no sense of passing time. Finally, I felt arms around me, folding me against a mighty chest. I heard His heartbeat, felt His warmth.
“Welcome home, my beloved son. I’ve longed for this moment from all eternity past. It’s so good to have you here.”
Then I was at peace. I am still at peace, content to dwell within His everlasting arms. He is that for which I searched, longed for in all the twinings of body that never satisfied. As the poet said,
Naught satisfies thee,
Which satisfies not Me.
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Lazarus Short
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Steven, I have had, and am having, a growing sense of FIRE - not "Hellfire," but the Fire of God. Think of Eden, the place with the Tree of Life. To reach it, we must get past the flaming swords, and we can't do it as our present flesh and blood. Ever notice that blood is not mentioned in the Bible until after sin entered? Then, at the very end, it is not mentioned again. Just an aside.
Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed by fire and sulfur...cleansed, shall we say? Later, God states that He will restore their fortunes. Restore? Yes, for they were/are cleansed in God's fire.
We see fire again at the bush in Midian, and where the fire is, is holy ground...so it is God's fire. Note that the bush is not consumed.
Much later, Jesus states His wish that a certain fire was already kindled in the Earth. Could that be the Lake of Fire? Yes, I think so.
We see this fire in operation in the text you commented on. We see that it is WORKS which are burned up, while the people with whom those works are associated with are saved BY FIRE. They do suffer loss, having little to no rewards (gold, silver and precious stones) left to them, but it is a good loss: they lose chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble. Bad stuff is gone and people are purified!
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christiansoccerplayer
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The Bema/Judgement Seat of Christ is to reward or not reward believers for their works done while on Earth. Their sins were forgiven when they accepted Christ as Lord and Savior before death. 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. The Lake of Fire is eternal torment for the beast, the false prophet, Satan, his demons (Matthew 25:41) and for anyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life (Revelation 20:15). It is eternal death (eternal separation from God); they will be there forever and ever. It is not some kind of purgatory. I am sure all this has been covered in this thread but figured I'd repeat it.
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Our God is a consuming Fire
Fire Is A Beneficent Agent
How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…
“Life”…Isa. 4:5
“Purification”…Matt. 3:3
“Atonement”…Lev. 16:27
“Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10
And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.
And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God’s fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.
Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, “aflame to the very tips of our fingers.” And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.
Fire Is The Sign Of God’s Being
And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.
Fire is the sign, not of God’s wrath, but of His being.
When God comes to Ezekiel there is a “fire unfolding itself” (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and “the appearance of fire.” (Ezek. 8:2)
Christ’s eyes are a flame of “fire” (Rev. 1:14).
The seven lamps of “fire” are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said “to go before God,” His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God’s ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4…Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.
Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome
It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes–call it, if you please, a paradox–in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, “Thy God is a consuming Fire,” and “Thy God is a merciful God” (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)–words full of significance.
So Isaiah tells us of God’s cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)–suggestive words. And, so again, “By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh.” (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by “fire.” (Mal. 3:2).
Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?
Let us note, also, how often “fire” is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in “fire:” God answers Gideon by “fire;” and David by “fire.” (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by “fire;” and in “fire” Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of “fire.” So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by “fire.” (Psl. 18:6-8)
And by the pillar of “fire” God gave His law. And in “fire” the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."
Fire Is The Portion Of All
These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that “fire,” like judgment, so far from being the sinner’s portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God’s judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is “already kindled,” always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. “I am come to send fire on the earth,” for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the “fire is to try every man’s work.” He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned “so as by fire,” by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.
The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, “He that is near Me is near fire,” expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work “like a refiner’s fire.” And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that “our God is a consuming Fire,” i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but “Our God is a consuming Fire”–a consuming Fire, “by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed.”
When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that “coals of fire” go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are “coals of fire” to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious “fires” of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner’s doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these “fires” not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise–
"Behold, I make all things new."
-Christ Triumphant-
Fire Is A Beneficent Agent
How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…
“Life”…Isa. 4:5
“Purification”…Matt. 3:3
“Atonement”…Lev. 16:27
“Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10
And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.
And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God’s fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.
Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, “aflame to the very tips of our fingers.” And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.
Fire Is The Sign Of God’s Being
And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.
Fire is the sign, not of God’s wrath, but of His being.
When God comes to Ezekiel there is a “fire unfolding itself” (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and “the appearance of fire.” (Ezek. 8:2)
Christ’s eyes are a flame of “fire” (Rev. 1:14).
The seven lamps of “fire” are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said “to go before God,” His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God’s ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4…Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.
Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome
It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes–call it, if you please, a paradox–in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, “Thy God is a consuming Fire,” and “Thy God is a merciful God” (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)–words full of significance.
So Isaiah tells us of God’s cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)–suggestive words. And, so again, “By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh.” (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by “fire.” (Mal. 3:2).
Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?
Let us note, also, how often “fire” is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in “fire:” God answers Gideon by “fire;” and David by “fire.” (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by “fire;” and in “fire” Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of “fire.” So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by “fire.” (Psl. 18:6-8)
And by the pillar of “fire” God gave His law. And in “fire” the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."
Fire Is The Portion Of All
These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that “fire,” like judgment, so far from being the sinner’s portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God’s judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is “already kindled,” always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. “I am come to send fire on the earth,” for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the “fire is to try every man’s work.” He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned “so as by fire,” by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.
The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, “He that is near Me is near fire,” expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work “like a refiner’s fire.” And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that “our God is a consuming Fire,” i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but “Our God is a consuming Fire”–a consuming Fire, “by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed.”
When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that “coals of fire” go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are “coals of fire” to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious “fires” of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner’s doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these “fires” not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise–
"Behold, I make all things new."
-Christ Triumphant-
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Have any of us ever wondered why ONLY the overcomer is not "hurt" by the Lake of Fire?
I believe the reason is that they have been hurt over and over again by His mighty dealings in their triune beings leaving nothing to hurt further. Let us continue to go out to meet Him, the Consuming Fire!
Sulphur Refining of Gold
God is the God of purification
I believe the reason is that they have been hurt over and over again by His mighty dealings in their triune beings leaving nothing to hurt further. Let us continue to go out to meet Him, the Consuming Fire!
Sulphur Refining of Gold
God is the God of purification
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"I think we need to relinquish the persistent misunderstanding that the LOF in any way represents retributive punishment. It’s there to assist people who haven’t been able to overcome their sins in Christ - sin grips them like a mortgage. It may feel like punishment, because those strongholds of satan are being destroyed, and (like being born again) we’ll come face to face with the truth. I imagine the devil will be tormented for ages because he’s built his entire false identity on rejecting God, and will vainly try to hang on to that. My, what justice it will be to see him truly repent and emerge as an angel restored by such scandalously amazing grace. Gloria in excelsis Deo!
Another thing about the pernicious nature of ECT is that it makes it impossible to truly love God. Even the greatest of saints who is an ECTer serves in some way for ‘ten shekels and a shirt’ - how can you love with a gun at your head? At best it’s a case of Stockholm Syndrome, identifying with one’s oppressor! We see this a lot - Christians praying harder, missioning harder, fasting harder, gospeling harder - like they’re trying to avoid the ‘cut’ for the football team. But is that the way, is that the narrow path, or just a lot of gonging and clanging, and rattling of chains to prove their freedom?
So I believe the LOF actually represents HOPE and assurance for all of us (we all struggle with thorns in the flesh): God’s not going to let sin rule! The cross was the guarantee of His covenant of UR, the LOF is its final delivery mechanism. Consider that none but one is worthy to even open the Book of Life. How many names do you think are found in it at that time, and how many will need full baptism of fire? So…first one in’s a rotten egg!
Forgive me if I’m not expressing my view in a systematic way, I hope you find it somewhat coherent. Do you think it’s possible to love God and hold to ECT? -Ben Clemens-
Another thing about the pernicious nature of ECT is that it makes it impossible to truly love God. Even the greatest of saints who is an ECTer serves in some way for ‘ten shekels and a shirt’ - how can you love with a gun at your head? At best it’s a case of Stockholm Syndrome, identifying with one’s oppressor! We see this a lot - Christians praying harder, missioning harder, fasting harder, gospeling harder - like they’re trying to avoid the ‘cut’ for the football team. But is that the way, is that the narrow path, or just a lot of gonging and clanging, and rattling of chains to prove their freedom?
So I believe the LOF actually represents HOPE and assurance for all of us (we all struggle with thorns in the flesh): God’s not going to let sin rule! The cross was the guarantee of His covenant of UR, the LOF is its final delivery mechanism. Consider that none but one is worthy to even open the Book of Life. How many names do you think are found in it at that time, and how many will need full baptism of fire? So…first one in’s a rotten egg!
Forgive me if I’m not expressing my view in a systematic way, I hope you find it somewhat coherent. Do you think it’s possible to love God and hold to ECT? -Ben Clemens-
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Jonathan Mitchell (The Lake of Fire)
The Location of the Lake of Fire - Jonathan Mitchell's Writings
The Location of the Lake of Fire - Jonathan Mitchell's Writings
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John Gavazzoni -The Lake of Fire-
Greater Emmanuel International - Serious Seminal Samplings - 2004 - John Gavazzoni
Death & Hell shall be cast into the Lake
Greater Emmanuel International - Serious Seminal Samplings - 2004 - John Gavazzoni
Death & Hell shall be cast into the Lake
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Our Father is determined. The Lake of Fire, and our God as consuming fire, etc., represent symbolically just that; Father's determination, but adding "passionately" to "determined."
Apart from any academic approach to determining what the Bible means to convey when representing God as fire, from the earliest time when the Lord convinced me of the Restitution of the all what I heard from "fire" was passion.
E. Stanley Jones in his book, "The Unshakeable Kingdom and the Unchanging Person" he translates the O.T. verse that says, "I, the Lord, am a jealous God," as passionate God.
There are folks within the U.R. community, who seem to feel that a nice God, benignly nice, is the only God who fits with the truth of U.R. I dare to say one thing I have discovered=
Nice in no way describes our God and Father
Apart from any academic approach to determining what the Bible means to convey when representing God as fire, from the earliest time when the Lord convinced me of the Restitution of the all what I heard from "fire" was passion.
E. Stanley Jones in his book, "The Unshakeable Kingdom and the Unchanging Person" he translates the O.T. verse that says, "I, the Lord, am a jealous God," as passionate God.
There are folks within the U.R. community, who seem to feel that a nice God, benignly nice, is the only God who fits with the truth of U.R. I dare to say one thing I have discovered=
Nice in no way describes our God and Father
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