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The Lake Of Fire

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Hades is not the Lake of Fire, it is a completely different place.

Plainly, yet this fact seems to elude most Christians, who are determined to see Hades as at best a remand facility for those en route to the big house of the LoF, to do hard time.

It's a wonderful image isn't it? The wicked languishing in a place of torment merely to give them a foretaste of an infinite exquisite agony, to occur after a forgone judgement without prospect of success or appeal. It sure ticks all the boxes - justice, love, hope, beauty, holiness, truth...

Or what about the idea that God wakes up the dead just to sentence them to death again? Wouldn't they have been eternally dead but for the intervention? Did they really need to be told they'd earned 'the biggest sleep'?

Bit loony really. It's increasingly hard for me to shake the persistent implication that these ppl are a bit off their rockers.
 
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FineLinen

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Jesus preached to the souls in Torment THROUGH Noah.

You poor laddy: where you come up with some of your stuff, I will never know.

Surely Eric (wheelies for Jesus), or got questions know the difference of "souls in torment" & "dead"?

You evidently do NOT!

“We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored.”

The risen Christ preaches to the dead

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

Disobedient= apeitheo=

Not to allow one’s self to be persuaded.

To refuse or withhold belief & obedience.

To refuse belief and obedience.

Not to comply with.

Live= zao=

To be alive with resurrection life.
 
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nolidad

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The brand new creation is not only coming, it is being birthed within those whose beings are made alive to the unprecedented glory today.

The lost are only lost until they are found!

Ninety-Nine (99) is NOT enough.

gxhjub39te551.jpg

Correct. But as Jesus said- not all are of HIs sheep.

YOu need to show how the goats who get tossed into teh lake of fire get to become His sheep! Thdt is still the question you must answer!

Also still waiting for you rtranslations to show honor!
 
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FineLinen

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Correct. But as Jesus said- not all are of HIs sheep.

Big Guy: The sheep are His, the goats are His. All animals are His, every last one on the thousand hills,(which also are His).

Welcome to the God of UN (limited)!

The lost are only lost until they are found!

Ninety-Nine (99) is NOT enough.

gxhjub39te551.jpg
 
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FineLinen

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God is Father

I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things shall be subject to Him and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor 15:24-28).

For me, this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside of the love of God at the end of time, it means that one man has defeated the love of God—and that is impossible.

Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of our God. If God was no more than a King or judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if His enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out.

But God is not only king and Judge, God is Father—He is indeed Father more than anything else.

No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all of his family back home again. –Dr. William Barclay-
 
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Major1

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You poor laddy: where you come up with some of your stuff, I will never know.

Surely Eric (wheelies for Jesus), or got questions know the difference of "souls in torment" & "dead"?

You evidently do NOT!

“We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored.”

The risen Christ preaches to the dead

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

Disobedient= apeitheo=

Not to allow one’s self to be persuaded.

To refuse or withhold belief & obedience.

To refuse belief and obedience.

Not to comply with.

Live= zao=

To be alive with resurrection life.

Dear "Moonbeam"...…..have you already forgotten your own words of...…...

Mr. Finlinen states in post #880 that...…….
"There is no Scripture that will answer what you ask. "

Mr. Finlinen has just admitted what I and everyone else who read the Bible know.....
"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! HE SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

WHY are we still debating something that you have already admitted can not be debated as there are NO Scripture that say what you believe??????
 
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Major1

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God is Father

I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things shall be subject to Him and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor 15:24-28).

For me, this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside of the love of God at the end of time, it means that one man has defeated the love of God—and that is impossible.

Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of our God. If God was no more than a King or judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if His enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out.

But God is not only king and Judge, God is Father—He is indeed Father more than anything else.

No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all of his family back home again. –Dr. William Barclay-

Those words apply only to THOSE WHO ACCEPT AND BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Your theology simply astounds me "Moonbeam". Listen carefully.....
We are NOT ALL God's children. All men will NOT be God's children.

You are correct and I believe it as well that God both created and loves – in a way most unfathomable – everyone who ever lived. He wove us together in our mother's womb and numbered our every hair.

But God the Father has only one begotten Son. The rest of us, in order to become one of God's children, must be adopted – in, by and through – the One Who is the Son: Jesus Christ. Those who are not adopted are not children of God. Christ and Christ alone is "the way, the truth and the life" as HE Himself said in John 14:6. When you read that Scripture, do you just ignore it or have you erased it from your Bible?????

SO then the Bible, not our thoughts or our wishes or OUR theology but the Bible says that to become a child of God, we must ask God – through Christ – to adopt us. We mustn't just believe upon Him – for "Even the demons believe that" (see James 2:19) – but, rather, we must also accept Him. We must follow Jesus, the one true God, as our only God.

Read this carefully brother in John 1:12...…..
"But to all who believed him and accepted Him (Jesus), he gave the right to become children of God."

How can you or anyone else read that and still believe in Universalism??????
 
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FineLinen

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WHY are we still debating something that you have already admitted can not be debated as there are NO Scripture that say what you believe??????

Big Guy: How long have I been with you & you still do not grasp that I do NOT debate.

I state, with the knowledge that only the Living God can open blind eyes and deaf ears by the power of ephphatha.

I would encourage you to find the avenue on which He still treads. If you cannot find it, fear not, He knows where you are!
 
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FineLinen

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Dear Dr. Barclay: Please be advised we are not the offspring of Adam 1. We do not choose to be of his seed.

Dear Lord of Glory, & Author of all that is, are You certain we have been made prisoners of futility "not willingly" but by reason of Him who made it so?

Why? ?
 
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FineLinen

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"Encompromising trust in the love of God inspires us to thank God for the spiritual darkness that envelops us, for the loss of income, for the nagging arthritis that is so painful, and to pray from the heart, “Abba, into your hands I entrust my body, mind, and spirit and this entire day—morning, afternoon, evening, and night. Whatever you want of me, I want of me, falling into you and trusting in you in the midst of my life. Into Your heart I entrust my heart, feeble, distracted, insecure, uncertain. Abba, unto you I abandon myself in Jesus our Lord. Amen.” -Brennan Manning-
 
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nolidad

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Big Guy: The sheep are His, the goats are His. All animals are His, every last one on the thousand hills,(which also are His).

Welcome to the God of UN (limited)!

The lost are only lost until they are found!

Ninety-Nine (99) is NOT enough.

gxhjub39te551.jpg

That is not what teh God of the Bible has taught! Maybe the god made in you rimage- But not the eternal Almighty God!
 
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Major1

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Big Guy: How long have I been with you & you still do not grasp that I do NOT debate.

I state, with the knowledge that only the Living God can open blind eyes and deaf ears by the power of ephphatha.

I would encourage you to find the avenue on which He still treads. If you cannot find it, fear not, He knows where you are!

You are correct. There is really no debate at all is there as you have already said...…….
""THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! HE SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".
 
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Major1

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"Encompromising trust in the love of God inspires us to thank God for the spiritual darkness that envelops us, for the loss of income, for the nagging arthritis that is so painful, and to pray from the heart, “Abba, into your hands I entrust my body, mind, and spirit and this entire day—morning, afternoon, evening, and night. Whatever you want of me, I want of me, falling into you and trusting in you in the midst of my life. Into Your heart I entrust my heart, feeble, distracted, insecure, uncertain. Abba, unto you I abandon myself in Jesus our Lord. Amen.” -Brennan Manning-
""THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! HE SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".
 
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Major1

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Dear Dr. Barclay: Please be advised we are not the offspring of Adam 1. We do not choose to be of his seed.

Dear Lord of Glory, & Author of all that is, are You certain we have been made prisoners of futility "not willingly" but by reason of Him who made it so?

Why? ?


Deut. 29:29.....
29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."
 
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FineLinen

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Deut. 29:29.....
29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."

Attempt to follow along Big Guy.

We have been made suject to futility, "not by any choice of our own."

The subjection of the entire seed of Adam 1 is NOT by his choice.

NOT!

BUT...BUT....BUT

By reason of HIM who made it so.

AND...AND...AND

The reason =

"The whole of created life shall be delivered/ set free..."
 
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FineLinen

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The 2nd death & hurt

There is a strange and wonderful statement found in Rev. 2:11.

"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches; He that overcomes shall not be HURT of the second death."

It does not say that the overcomer experiences nothing of the second death, that he does not pass through it, or that its work is not wrought in his life; but the thought is that he will not be "hurt" by it.

It is possible to pass through the most terrible experience and not be hurt by it?

"And these three men Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. Then Nebuchnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spoke, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they HAVE NO HURT; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God" (Dan. 3:23-25). Oh, to know that we can pass through the darkest night or the hottest fire and not be hurt by it if Jesus goes with us! How heartening and assuring to read such promises as these: "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow you: and when you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon you" (Isa. 43:2).

The word "hurt" is from the Greek ADIKEO meaning to be unjust, do wrong, injure or offend.

Armed with this understanding we may paraphrase Rev. 2:11

"He that overcomes shall not be done an injustice, wronged, injured or offended by the second death."

The great difference between the unbeliever and the child of God is that the unbeliever is taken hand and foot and "cast" into the lake of fire, fighting, kicking, screaming, cursing, and resisting all the way, while the child of God willingly and obediently walks into the fiery processings of God hand in hand with his blessed Redeemer.

And, one way or the other, ALL MEN MUST DIE UNTO SIN.

When the natural man becomes the spiritual man, the great change is described by the Holy Spirit as a passing from death unto life. Before the transistion occurred, the practical difficulty was this, how to get into harmony with the new environment of the Kingdom of God?

But no sooner do we enter into the Kingdom of God than the problem is reversed.

The question now is, how to get out of harmony with the old environment of the flesh, the world, and the devil? The moment the new CHRIST life is begun there comes a great anxiety to break with the old, for the regenerated spirit has nothing in common with the old.

The former way of life now becomes embarrassing. Because of "sin in our members" it refuses to be dismissed from our consciousness. It competes doggedly with the new nature of the Christ. And in a hundred ways the former traditions, the memories and passions of the past, the fixed associations and habits of the earlier life, now press in to draw us to walk after the flesh, complicating the new walk. The complex and bewildered soul, in fact, finds itself confronted by two contrasting faculties, the flesh and the spirit, each with urgent but yet incompatible claims. It is a dual consciousness of a double world, a world whose inhabitants are deadly enemies, and engaged in perpetual civil war!

The position is perplexing.

It is clear that no man can attempt to live both lives. No man can walk both after the flesh and after the spirit anymore than one can walk down two roads at the same time. His testimony will agree with the apostle who wrote: "For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it. I have the intention and urge to do what is right, but no power to carry it out; for I fail to practice the good deeds I desire to do, but the evil deeds I do not desire to do are what I am ever doing. Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I doing it it is not myself that acts - but the sin (principle) which dwells within me. So I find it to be a law of my being that when I want to do what is right and good, evil is ever present with me and I am subject to its insistent demands. For I endorse and delight in the Law of God in my inmost self - with my new nature. But I discern in my bodily members - in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh - a different law at war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner to the law of sin that dwells in my bodily organs - in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh. O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will release and deliver me from the shackles of this body of death?" (Rom. 7:18-24, Amplified). -J. Preston Eby-
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
The word "hurt" is from the Greek ADIKEO meaning to be unjust, do wrong, injure or offend.
Armed with this understanding we may paraphrase Rev. 2:11
"He that overcomes shall not be done an injustice, wronged, injured or offended by the second death."
Clever heterodox ploy when scripture doesn't support one's narrative just make up your own definitions for words.
Greek has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who better than the native Greek speaking translators of the EOB know the correct translation of the Greek NT?.

Revelation 2:11 Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.”
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Re 2:10–11). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone has doubts/questions about the EOB version I suggest they read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.


 
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Plainly, yet this fact seems to elude most Christians, who are determined to see Hades as at best a remand facility for those en route to the big house of the LoF, to do hard time.

It's a wonderful image isn't it? The wicked languishing in a place of torment merely to give them a foretaste of an infinite exquisite agony, to occur after a forgone judgement without prospect of success or appeal. It sure ticks all the boxes - justice, love, hope, beauty, holiness, truth...

Or what about the idea that God wakes up the dead just to sentence them to death again? Wouldn't they have been eternally dead but for the intervention? Did they really need to be told they'd earned 'the biggest sleep'?

Bit loony really. It's increasingly hard for me to shake the persistent implication that these ppl are a bit off their rockers.

The distinction is lost in some translations and it is an extremely important distinction. The Rich Man is suffering in a flame in Hades, yet nowhere else in Scripture is Hades associated with fire. It is associated with God's wrath.

22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1 (Deut. 32:22 KJV)

These are the only two passages that have something burning in Hades. This passage from Deuteronomy is about God's anger burning against Israel for turning away from Him. God said His anger would burn to the lowest Hades. Jesus speaks of the Rich Man who clearly represents the leadership of Israel suffering a burning in Hades. The connection couldn't be more clear, yet it doesn't fit the eternal torment narrative so it just gets dismissed.

I think many miss how the ETC doctrine impugns God's character. God said the soul that sins shall die. If the punishment is Eternal Conscious Torment it would mean that God lied. The Scriptures tell us that God doesn't lie.
 
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Major1

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Attempt to follow along Big Guy.

We have been made suject to futility, "not by any choice of our own."

The subjection of the entire seed of Adam 1 is NOT by his choice.

NOT!

BUT...BUT....BUT

By reason of HIM who made it so.

AND...AND...AND

The reason =

"The whole of created life shall be delivered/ set free..."

Yes.....the whole world which chooses the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. As for the others, you have already told us that...…...
There is really no debate at all is there as you have already said...…….
""THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! HE SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".
 
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FineLinen

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Yes.....the whole world which chooses the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

Dear Megas: It is not I who declares the whole creation shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption. I will of course continue to do so as long as Abba gives me the ability to proclaim the Glad News!

Please turn to Romans chapter 8, for the author.

"For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope, because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now."
 
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