The Lake of Fire

[Rescued1]

I have noticed lately that discussions on the Lake of Fire is favoring those who think that the punishment is greater than the crime and that the Lake of Fire is actually a Lake of Love and people will get converted in the Lake of Love then they will be let into heaven or that the length of stay in the Lake of Fire will be short and ALL people who ever existed will end up in the Kingdom of God. The standard view is that the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) will be the eternal home of all those who hate God and a place where God's presence is totally missing.

So lets have some views on this keeping some of these scriptures and thoughts in mind.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For those who propose that humans will have a short stay in the fire does that include the devil and his angels? They have feelings also. They are God's created beings whom He loves even now.

Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

If the Fire is a short stay why would have Jesus have you enter the Kingdom of God crippled than go to the Fire?

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is 1000 earth years later and the beast and false prophet are still there and exactly how long is forever and ever?

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

comments?

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

comments?

Revelations 21:8 scares me to my core! I'm guilty of being cowardly. Just because I lack courage, I'm going to be thrown into hell????

 

[white gardenia]

I have noticed lately that discussions on the Lake of Fire is favoring those who think that the punishment is greater than the crime and that the Lake of Fire is actually a Lake of Love and people will get converted in the Lake of Love then they will be let into heaven or that the length of stay in the Lake of Fire will be short and ALL people who ever existed will end up in the Kingdom of God. The standard view is that the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) will be the eternal home of all those who hate God and a place where God's presence is totally missing.

So lets have some views on this keeping some of these scriptures and thoughts in mind.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For those who propose that humans will have a short stay in the fire does that include the devil and his angels? They have feelings also. They are God's created beings whom He loves even now.

Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

If the Fire is a short stay why would have Jesus have you enter the Kingdom of God crippled than go to the Fire?

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is 1000 earth years later and the beast and false prophet are still there and exactly how long is forever and ever?

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

comments?

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

comments?

i think it is impossible to reconcile christian faith with the idea that some people would spend eternity in hell....
there are so many problems with this concept...
for instance, if i were married, and i actually believed in a physical hell where people will be tortured for all eternity, why on earth would i ever want to have children?...no one would want to have children if there was a possibility that even one of them might backslide and end up in hell....not just for 100 years or a thousand years but for all eternity....with no chance of redemption...and the more children you have the greater likelihood that one or more of them will end up being eternally damned

this is why the universalist doctrine is the only doctrine that makes sense to me...every person, no matter their religion race or creed will eventually end up in heaven...
however, i also believe that the numerous biblical warnings about hell and the lake of fire are of the utmost importance...but i believe this primarily is in the context of frank tipler's omega point theory ....tipler is looking at christianity/ christian doctrine from a different perspective....and i believe that the warnings about hell and how sin can lead down the road to hell make alot of sense from this perspective..if your interested in this explanation please check out this CF thread on Dr Tipler and his theories www.christianforums.com/threads/scientific-proof-for-the-existence-of-god-heaven.7994130/#post-70924605

 

[Adstar]

I have noticed lately that discussions on the Lake of Fire is favoring those who think that the punishment is greater than the crime and that the Lake of Fire is actually a Lake of Love and people will get converted in the Lake of Love then they will be let into heaven or that the length of stay in the Lake of Fire will be short and ALL people who ever existed will end up in the Kingdom of God. The standard view is that the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) will be the eternal home of all those who hate God and a place where God's presence is totally missing.

So lets have some views on this keeping some of these scriptures and thoughts in mind.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For those who propose that humans will have a short stay in the fire does that include the devil and his angels? They have feelings also. They are God's created beings whom He loves even now.

Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

If the Fire is a short stay why would have Jesus have you enter the Kingdom of God crippled than go to the Fire?

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is 1000 earth years later and the beast and false prophet are still there and exactly how long is forever and ever?

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

comments?

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

comments?

As the old song goes:: A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest hummm hum....

Many people are offended by the Eternal Lake of fire revealed in the Bible.. But because they have little Faith / trust in God they simply do not accept what has been revealed in scriptures and will jump on any twisted doctrine that twists clear scripture to somehow either turn the Lake of fire into something it isn't or a doctrine that will deny the existence of the eternal lake of fire..

Those who read the Word of God and trust in Gods will shall trust that God knows what He is doing and is justified in doing what He is going to do.. Those who have no real trust in God will twist or ignore parts of His world that cause them discomfort or offense..

 

[Der Alte]

i think it is impossible to reconcile christian faith with the idea that some people would spend eternity in hell....
there are so many problems with this concept...
for instance, if i were married, and i actually believed in a physical hell where people will be tortured for all eternity, why on earth would i ever want to have children?...no one would want to have children if there was a possibility that even one of them might backslide and end up in hell....not just for 100 years or a thousand years but for all eternity....with no chance of redemption...and the more children you have the greater likelihood that one or more of them will end up being eternally damned
this is why the universalist doctrine is the only doctrine that makes sense to me...every person, no matter their religion race or creed will eventually end up in heaven...
however, i also believe that the numerous biblical warnings about hell and the lake of fire are of the utmost importance...but i believe this primarily is in the context of frank tipler's omega point theory ....tipler is looking at christianity/ christian doctrine from a different perspective....and i believe that the warnings about hell and how sin can lead down the road to hell make alot of sense from this perspective..if your interested in this explanation please check out this CF thread on Dr Tipler and his theories www.christianforums.com/threads/scientific-proof-for-the-existence-of-god-heaven.7994130/#post-70924605

Rather than read what some scholar speculates, let's read what the Jews of Jesus' day and Jesus Himself said about hell.
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
in general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
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The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism ​

 

[Oldmantook]

In addressing the OP in the part about the crime fitting the punishment. All of us acknowledge that the severity of punishment for crime is in large part determined by who the crime was against.

For example, if Bob is walking his dog down the street and a random person runs up with a baseball bat and beats Bob's dog to death, that man will be arrested and punished. Let's now imagine that the man instead of beating the dog to death with his baseball bat actually beats Bob to death with his baseball bat. Let's also say the man lives in Texas Chances are good that in the case of beating Bob to death the man will receive the death penalty. There's no chance the man would receive the death penalty for beating the dog to death. Same crime - murder. Different punishment though because the crimes committed against humans are considered worse than crimes against animals. We know this intuitively.

All sin is ultimately against God. God is eternal. An eternal punishment for crimes against an eternal God is not unjust.

Your reasoning makes sense up until a certain point. Since I presume that you would acknowledge that God is just, is punishment the same thing as justice? We would both agree that being condemned to the lake of fire qualifies as punishment but does it meet the demands of justice? For example, a rapist could rape a woman. He claims he is innocent and is not repentant for his crime but is found guilty and sentenced to prison. We would agree that the rapist is being punished but the rape victim will have to live with the consequences of what happened for the rest of her life. Is that justice as the victim has life-long consequences through no fault of her own? Suppose yet that a child was conceived and born as a result of the rape and the mother now has the responsibility to raise the child on her own while the perpetrator does nothing but sit in jail. Is that justice? Based on this example, it can be argued that there is a difference between punishment and justice as the former does not always meet the demands of the latter. The pertinent question to consider then is how can punishment also meet the demands of justice in this case? I would submit that the answer demands that the perpetrator of the crime has to willingly agree to make amends and seek reconciliation with his victim. He needs to admit guilt, seek forgiveness and make recompense for his crime - perhaps some sort of ongoing financial obligation/support when he leaves prison and hopefully gets a job. The point is justice is only accomplished when the perpetrator participates in making amends toward the one he is guilty of offending.

I believe this human scenario approximates the picture of how God deals with us justly for our sins against Him. There is Biblical precedent for this view of punishment/justice throughout the scriptures. For example Ex 22:1 states: "If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep." In the NT, Zacchaeus promises Jesus that he will restore fourfold those whom he has defrauded. These instances exemplify that justice demands not just the aspect of punishment but also recompense in order to make amends and fully bring about God's justice.

Given this scriptural evidence, we can apply this to the concept of an eternal hell. Being condemned to eternal punishment in the lake of fire certainly constitutes as punishment but it does not bring about God's justice because the inhabitants in the lake of fire have no opportunity to admit their guilt, seek forgiveness and seek to make recompense as it is "already too late." They must suffer the consequence of their sin forever. There is no chance for amends and reconciliation with God and therein lies the weakness with the retributive punishment view of hell. The view of the lake of fire that is most consistent with the scriptures and the character of God is the view where the lake of fire is for the purpose of chastisement where sinners recognize their sin against God, repent and seek forgiveness from the Lamb. Of course they, like all of us cannot repay their debt against God except that they believe in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus to make recompense for their sin. Like the rapist example it requires willing participation on their part as guilty sinners before a holy God. This reconciliation model of the lake of fire requires that the sinners must endure the purifying fires of hell (but not eternally) in order that they may seek reconciliation with the Lamb who is also present in the lake of fire (Rev 14:10) so that one day God's ultimate goal of reconciliation is achieved. "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Col 1:19-20).

 

[devin553344]

Revelations 21:8 scares me to my core! I'm guilty of being cowardly. Just because I lack courage, I'm going to be thrown into hell????

Or instead will be baptized with fire, since you appear to have accepted Jesus the Christ as your Savior. Baptism is symbolic of dying and being reborn or resurrected, if I understand that correct, which I'm pretty sure I do. Water baptism is for the first death of the body and Fire is done by God only for the death which is called the second death.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Chapter 20 of the Revelation lists who is cast into the LoF:

the devil
the beast
the false prophet
death
hades
those not listed in the Book of Life.

The chapter says toward the end that "This is the second death." (verse 14, KJV) The "second death" sounds depressingly final, but is it? There is one place where we are given a look through time, far beyond the LoF. It is in I Corinthians 15, "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father...For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death...then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." (verses 24, 25, 26, 28, KJV)

This implies two questions:

When Death is destroyed, and the Bible says it surely shall be, how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell after that?

If God the Father is to become All in all, and the Bible says He surely shall be, how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell after that?

I have yet to receive an answer to these two questions.

 

[Shempster]

In the discussing of this issue, one must look at other subjects that are intimately tied together.
Like Augustine's idea of the total depravity of humans. Most believe this that I know anyways. This would suggest that humans are pre-programmed to be evil. That means we don't have free will from the wide perspective. That says we are born with original sin and cannot change (without God) if I am correct.
Well that works fine if you are born in America in this "age of protestant enlightenment", but it stinks for someone born in a place and time where there is no gospel of Jesus. Think about it.....thousands of years. Millions of people, maybe billions. What if you were born in Mogadishu in the 1500's? How about born a Mayan or Aztec or American indian? What if you were born in Saudi Arabia? Would you have any chance to become a Christian? Highly unlikely.

So then we must conclude that those people were destined for a bad life in this world and then an eternity of torture simply because they were not born in the right place at the right time. Seems absurd.
And how about you? Being born into the most comfortable time in human history. Being born into a good Christian family. How did you rate so well? Luck? Are you somehow more special than the 24 year old Mayan citizen who was sacrificed on a pagan alter and died without ever hearing about Yeshua? Aren't we just as depraved?

One must deal with these things before making any decisions of whether or not there is a place of eternal torture for most.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Der Alte]

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “he lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
.....We also know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
.....More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” but 4 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

 

[Der Alte]

Accidental duplicate

 

[ShermanN]

So Gehenna was used by the Pharisees to affirm punishment of sin in the afterlife.

We have learned in a Boraitha: The school of Shammai said: There are three divisions of mankind at the Resurrection: the wholly righteous, the utterly wicked, and the average class. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the utterly wicked are at once inscribed, and destined for Gehenna, as we read [Dan. xii. 2]: "And many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The third class, the men between the former two, descend to Gehenna, but they weep and come up again, in accordance with the passage [Zech. xiii. 9]: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; and he shall call on My name, and I will answer him." p.24 Tract Rosh Hashana

So the Pharisees (of whom were both the schools of Hillel and Shammai) used Gehenna as a reference to a place of torment in the afterlife. It is interesting that for the Pharisees, this experience of torment was for some rehabilitative as in the concept of Purgatory.

Concerning this last class of men Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 6]: "The Lord causeth to die and maketh alive, He bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up again." The school of Hillel says: The Merciful One inclines (the scale of justice) to the side of mercy, and of this third class of men David says [Psalms, cxvi. 1]: "It is lovely to me that the Lord heareth my voice"; in fact, David applies to them the Psalm mentioned down to the words, "Thou hast delivered my soul from death" [ibid. 8].

Transgressors of Jewish birth and also of non-Jewish birth, who sin with their body descend to Gehenna, and are judged there for twelve months; after that time their bodies are destroyed and burnt, and the winds scatter their ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous, as we read [Mal. iii. 23]: "And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet"; but as for Minim, informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces." R. Itz'hac b. Abhin says: "Their faces are black like the sides of a caldron"; while Rabha remarked: "Those who are now the handsomest of the people of Me'huzza will yet be called the children of Gehenna." p.27 Tract Rosh Hashana

Some Pharisees thought some people were destroyed in Gehenna surely within 12 months, and some believed that some of the especially wicked might suffer indefinitely longer than 12 months, possibly even after Gehenna is destroyed. This is what I call the Cultural Context of Jesus' warnings concerning being cast into Hinnom Valley. Not only is this extra-biblical, but it is also an addition to the Law of Moses and the prophets, neither of which ever warned of such.

The Biblical Context though consists of the Prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah warning of the coming destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, and the bodies being piled high in Hinnom Valley eaten by wild animals and maggots (worms that don't die) and consumed by unquenchable fire (likely fire fueled by sulfur) because it was a cursed place because of the erection of an idol Molech and sacrificing their children to it.

And some think that Hinnom Valley was used as a trash dump during the time of Christ. There is debate over this, but if it was then I'd call this the Geographical Context. Was it, I don't know. But every city needs a dump and Hinnom Valley is ideally situated to be a dump for Jerusalem. And with its infamous history using it as a dump would be logical.

So which perspective did Jesus intend when He warned of being cast into Hinnom Valley. I think that the biblical context is the most solid. For example, when Jesus says it is better to pluck out one's eye or cut off one's hand than to keep them and sin and be cast into Hinnom Valley, He'd be referencing people becoming so consumed by evil so as to even sacrifice their children to their idols. And I immediately think of the destructiveness of drug addiction, alcoholism, sexual perversion. And Jesus could be alluding to the then coming 2nd destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans when again the bodies were piled high in Hinnom Valley, consumed by dogs and maggots and fire.

But of course Jesus could also be warning the Pharisees, using their own metaphor of non-specific post-mortem punishment of sin. Many appeal to the doctrine of the Pharisees for their belief in ECT, but as quoted above, being cast into Hinnom Valley was non-specific punishment. For some it was like Purgatory, refining them so they can rise to Paradise. Others might be annihilated within 12 months after death, and the especially wicked might suffer indefinitely longer than 12 months. To me though this is not as compelling as the Biblical Context, especially when one considers Jesus' attitude towards the doctrine and attitudes of the Pharisees which Jesus specifically repudiated.

And warning of one's life being trashed because of sin is also a powerful metaphor (possible Geographical Context). But to me the Biblical Context is more compelling.

 

[Der Alte]

So Gehenna was used by the Pharisees to affirm punishment of sin in the afterlife.
So the Pharisees (of whom were both the schools of Hillel and Shammai) used Gehenna as a reference to a place of torment in the afterlife. It is interesting that for the Pharisees, this experience of torment was for some rehabilitative as in the concept of Purgatory.
Some Pharisees thought some people were destroyed in Gehenna surely within 12 months, and some believed that some of the especially wicked might suffer indefinitely longer than 12 months, possibly even after Gehenna is destroyed. This is what I call the Cultural Context of Jesus' warnings concerning being cast into Hinnom Valley. Not only is this extra-biblical, but it is also an addition to the Law of Moses and the prophets, neither of which ever warned of such.

I have found it very helpful to actually read a post when responding to it. I have addressed all these objections in my post #44, above. There are two archaeological articles at the end of the post documenting that the valley of Hinnom was never used for a burning garbage dump or a place for burning bodies.

The Biblical Context though consists of the Prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah warning of the coming destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, and the bodies being piled high in Hinnom Valley eaten by wild animals and maggots (worms that don't die) and consumed by unquenchable fire (likely fire fueled by sulfur) because it was a cursed place because of the erection of an idol Molech and sacrificing their children to it.

The valley of Hinnom was cursed but there were never bodies piled high etc. There was a valley near Jerusalem which was used as a trash dump but it was not Hinnom.

And some think that Hinnom Valley was used as a trash dump during the time of Christ. There is debate over this, but if it was then I'd call this the Geographical Context. Was it, I don't know. But every city needs a dump and Hinnom Valley is ideally situated to be a dump for Jerusalem. And with its infamous history using it as a dump would be logical.

Whether GeHinnom was an ideal place or it was logical or not is irrelevant there is no archaeological or documentary evidence that it was ever used as a trash dump.

So which perspective did Jesus intend when He warned of being cast into Hinnom Valley. I think that the biblical context is the most solid. For example, when Jesus says it is better to pluck out one's eye or cut off one's hand than to keep them and sin and be cast into Hinnom Valley, He'd be referencing people becoming so consumed by evil so as to even sacrifice their children to their idols. And I immediately think of the destructiveness of drug addiction, alcoholism, sexual perversion. And Jesus could be alluding to the then coming 2nd destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans when again the bodies were piled high in Hinnom Valley, consumed by dogs and maggots and fire.

Jesus was not talking about Ge Hinnom as documented by the Jewish Encyclopedia which you selectively quoted.

But of course Jesus could also be warning the Pharisees, using their own metaphor of non-specific post-mortem punishment of sin. Many appeal to the doctrine of the Pharisees for their belief in ECT, but as quoted above, being cast into Hinnom Valley was non-specific punishment. For some it was like Purgatory, refining them so they can rise to Paradise. Others might be annihilated within 12 months after death, and the especially wicked might suffer indefinitely longer than 12 months. To me though this is not as compelling as the Biblical Context, especially when one considers Jesus' attitude towards the doctrine and attitudes of the Pharisees which Jesus specifically repudiated.

Strange that if these assumptions/presuppositions are true that Jesus did not condemn them when He taught these Pharisees.

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• [A fate worse than death]“But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• [A fate worse than death] “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 ​

And warning of one's life being trashed because of sin is also a powerful metaphor (possible Geographical Context). But to me the Biblical Context is more compelling

.

I think that I have accurately described the Biblical context.

 

[brianbe]

Where is the lake of fire?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Where is the lake of fire?

Some place I do not want to go. Are you looking for directions?

 

[HighwayMan]

I have noticed lately that discussions on the Lake of Fire is favoring those who think that the punishment is greater than the crime

If I may, I will just tackle this very beginning.

I do not know the answers about the Lake of Fire, however, the popular argument of "well, to you it may look like the punishment is too great, but God is greater than you" is one of the weakest arguments - because it can be used for absolutely anything at all where logic and common sense are cast out. You can justify anything under the sun with it. Yes, many times God makes clear in the Bible that his knowledge is beyond our own, but never does that apply to morality affecting humans. Never does God say "hey, I know you think rape is terrible, but it's actually awesome, you just don't get it."

Hence, if it seems that the punishment for something is greater than the crime...it makes no sense to say "it's not, because you don't get God." It's a very often used argument, but completely baseless.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Google / Bible search engine: "lake of fire"

It is a spiritual realm eternally separated from God and His heavenly realms. It is as real and the opposite to heaven.

Revelation 19:20 [ Doom of the Beast (anti-christ) and False Prophet (anti-spirit) ]
And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence,
by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10...Doom of the unholy 3
And the devil (satan/dragon/serpent) who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

SEE ALSO: "furnace of fire"

Matthew 13:50
and will throw them (tares=unbelievers) into the furnace of fire;
in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.