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wandererUK

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Hmmm....let me get this straight: through one man we are all condemned automatically. Through another man we are saved if we make a choice to believe. But this belief is only available if God allows it.

The place called hell was created by God: an infinite place of torment for a finite existence on earth. What was that again about forgiving our enemies?
 
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devin553344

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I have noticed lately that discussions on the Lake of Fire is favoring those who think that the punishment is greater than the crime and that the Lake of Fire is actually a Lake of Love and people will get converted in the Lake of Love then they will be let into heaven or that the length of stay in the Lake of Fire will be short and ALL people who ever existed will end up in the Kingdom of God. The standard view is that the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) will be the eternal home of all those who hate God and a place where God's presence is totally missing.

So lets have some views on this keeping some of these scriptures and thoughts in mind.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For those who propose that humans will have a short stay in the fire does that include the devil and his angels? They have feelings also. They are God's created beings whom He loves even now.

Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

If the Fire is a short stay why would have Jesus have you enter the Kingdom of God crippled than go to the Fire?

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is 1000 earth years later and the beast and false prophet are still there and exactly how long is forever and ever?

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

comments?

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

comments?

Jesus the Christ visited me personally and proclaimed the resurrection from the dead, baptized me with fire that I felt burn my body physically and said he was delivering me from the lake of fire in the body of Jesus the Christ. In other words I was guilty and should have been delivered to hell with the liars and other crimes I suppose, but that Jesus the Christ has power to deliver his children, as you have quoted from Revelation:

{21:8} But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So then from experience with who I believe is God I have to say that my view is that the Lake of fire is a real place in the heart of the earth where Jesus the Christ has power to deliver the sinner from. And that He does deliver the dead from death, both physically and spiritually, power to kill and make alive, and power to wound and heal: Deuteronomy: {32:39} See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand. {32:40} For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

So there is a first death of the body and also a second death of the spirit, that there is a resurrection of the body and a resurrection of the spirit, and that there are those that take part in the first resurrection that taste not of the second death, Revelation: {2:11} He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that
overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. {20:6} Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So then there are two deaths for some and one death for some, then my belief is that there is two resurrections for some and one resurrection for some. And my belief is that God has power to enter them and raise them from the death and deliver them from hell, for instance in Romans: {8:2} For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
and then in Revelation: {11:11} And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them,
and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

I guess I'm not sure about that first resurrection? As God testified to me that I had part in the lake of fire at least as a Liar. But He was merciful enough to visit and say he was delivering me from it in the Body of him.
 
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AlexDTX

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I have noticed lately that discussions on the Lake of Fire is favoring those who think that the punishment is greater than the crime and that the Lake of Fire is actually a Lake of Love and people will get converted in the Lake of Love then they will be let into heaven or that the length of stay in the Lake of Fire will be short and ALL people who ever existed will end up in the Kingdom of God. The standard view is that the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) will be the eternal home of all those who hate God and a place where God's presence is totally missing.

So lets have some views on this keeping some of these scriptures and thoughts in mind.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For those who propose that humans will have a short stay in the fire does that include the devil and his angels? They have feelings also. They are God's created beings whom He loves even now.

Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

If the Fire is a short stay why would have Jesus have you enter the Kingdom of God crippled than go to the Fire?

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is 1000 earth years later and the beast and false prophet are still there and exactly how long is forever and ever?

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

comments?

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

comments?

I understand your point. I think the difficulty lies between understanding God as Love and punishment. Hebrews tells us:

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.​

But chasten here means to train or educate, not torture with punishment. We also have the statement that Jacob he loved but Esau he hated (Rom. 9:13, Mal. 1:2 & 3). Pulpiteers have made the claim that it means he loved Esau less. I don't buy that. So how do we reconcile the God of Love also having hate? He did not hate Esau as a person since he provided land for him and his descendants, but he hated the shallow selfishness of Esau who did not esteem the right to the messianic lineage over the bowl of food. Having no faith in the redemptive work of Christ to come he remained in his iniquity, thus is one with his iniquity and God hates iniquity.

So, getting to the Lake of Fire, this is my personal opinion. I don't think the Lake of Fire is punishment. It is called the second death in Revelations 20:14. The Lake of Fire is the continuation of the death we are all born into. Since people reject the gift of life, then they are allowed to keep the death they already have. Rust is the decomposition of iron, and it is the slow burning (oxidization) of the metal. Worms eat decomposing flesh. Our mortal bodies are in a state of dying which means the regeneration that God intended has failed due to sin, thus we age and eventually die. Our human spirits that are created from the breath of God can not die, so it departs the broken bodies. I believe that after the White Throne Judgment where all excuses are repudiated for rejecting the gift of life, then the Proverb will be shown to be true:

Pro_8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.​

God will give them what they love, a second death. They will continue in bodies that are in a permanent state of decay without fully decaying for their spirits will continue to animate their bodies. They will get what they wanted which is why there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 
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RabbiMike

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I have noticed lately that discussions on the Lake of Fire is favoring those who think that the punishment is greater than the crime and that the Lake of Fire is actually a Lake of Love and people will get converted in the Lake of Love then they will be let into heaven or that the length of stay in the Lake of Fire will be short and ALL people who ever existed will end up in the Kingdom of God.

I'm not sure simply quoting Scripture is the best approach when dealing with this issue because, let's face it, it's an emotional issue as much as a doctrinal one. We're horrified--and rightly so--at the idea of eternal, conscious torment, and it does seem in most cases not to fit the crime. If the punishment doesn't fit the crime, then God must be the ultimate evil if he actively tortures people for eternity.

I wrote a blog post about six years ago dealing with the issue, in which I argue that Hell actually elevates human dignity. (I'm giving the link because it links to other discussions on the topic.) To quickly sum up the highlights:

There is no less inherent horror at a torture lasting “billions of years” than there is at one lasting an eternity. Heck, we’re aghast at the extremely finite tortures inflicted by the villain in the movie Se7en against the seven deadly sins–how horrified would we be if he had somehow stretched those tortures against his rather venial victims out over decades, let alone if he somehow had the power to stretch it out over centuries, millennia, or the life-span of the sun.

So what, exactly, do you do with a person who simply does not want to rehabilitate?

So when someone says that the purpose of a Hell of flames and torment must be in part “Rehabilitation of the Perpetrators,” what he is really saying without recognizing it is that Hell is like the Ministry of Love from Orwell’s 1984. The novel ends on a note of utter depression and horror as Winston, tortured beyond human endurance and utterly broken, says,

I gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark mustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.

The universalist has unwittingly put the Holy One in the position of Big Brother, of O’Brien, of the Ministry of Love. There is no dignity in Man, because in the end the only question is whether we will surrender before the torture, or after

Let us consider the honor-shame aspect of the paradigm of hell. In this paradigm, there is a true and honest choice: Those who choose to submit to Hashem’s mercy will be clothed in his honor. Those who choose not to be, will not be. And since we do not have, in our sinful natures, the honor to be able to stand in the presence of the Almighty, the Omniscient One who knows all of our secret sins, those who do not have their shame taken away by the Sacrifice of Yeshua are put outside of the domain of the King. That place, outside of the Light and Life of Hashem (but still not completely separate from his presence, since he is truly omnipresent; Psa. 139:7-8), is what we call Hell.

It is a choice with a real and eternal consequence, but one that the Holy One refuses to take away from us. To do so would be to diminish the real dignity of Man, a dignity that he invested in us in our creation when he made us in his own image.

Shalom
 
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CrystalDragon

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In addressing the OP in the part about the crime fitting the punishment. All of us acknowledge that the severity of punishment for crime is in large part determined by who the crime was against.

For example, if Bob is walking his dog down the street and a random person runs up with a baseball bat and beats Bob's dog to death, that man will be arrested and punished. Let's now imagine that the man instead of beating the dog to death with his baseball bat actually beats Bob to death with his baseball bat. Let's also say the man lives in Texas ;) Chances are good that in the case of beating Bob to death the man will receive the death penalty. There's no chance the man would receive the death penalty for beating the dog to death. Same crime - murder. Different punishment though because the crimes committed against humans are considered worse than crimes against animals. We know this intuitively.

All sin is ultimately against God. God is eternal. An eternal punishment for crimes against an eternal God is not unjust.


But why would sin (which apparently includes just existing) that's finite offend God who is infinite? It's like the actions of an ant offending Godzilla.
 
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geiroffenberg

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We all know the verses where sinners and beast worshippers shall be thrown in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, HOWEVER....i guess there is a point in saying the fire is not a evil fire, but the fire of the rpesence of GOD!

Doesnt it say: "
"If anyone worships the Beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
then he shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And they shall be tormented with fire and brimstone before the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."(rev 14:9-10)

If the torment of fire and brimstone happens "in the presence of the Lamb"

That should be a contradiction to any hell/heaven person, because the lamb is the redeemer but the fire is the place of eternal punishment. But here it is said that the fire IS in the presence of the Lamb.

It would point at the fact that the torment talked about in revelation, whteher it is eternal or not, is not activly willed by God but a reslut of the state of being the person being tormented is in. It would be like throwing demons into the presence of Jesus. We all nkow from the bible that demons were in torment when jesus came near them, and they screamed out and ran away. Well....nough said.
 
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geiroffenberg

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But why would sin (which apparently includes just existing) that's finite offend God who is infinite? It's like the actions of an ant offending Godzilla.
doesnt make sense. Its not really a view that is portraied in the bible, jesus was never offended at any sinner, light or heavy, except if they were pharasees. He really didnt like the pharasees, lol. Most christians today are really the same as pharasees.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Most christians today are really the same as pharasees.

I agree. If we look at scripture, we see Jesus is among the covenant people, He is not even sent to people outside of the covenant. So Jesus is in the midst of believers in the Lord. He is not judging among those outside of His people; He is judging His people. And His judgment of the "standard" teachers is, not good to say the least. I think most Christians expect God to come judging the non-Christians, but I believe we'll find this is not the way it goes. He will be found to come to judge His own people. The crosshairs of judgment are square upon the Christian preachers. We find time and again, these are the ones God is holding responsible:

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Jer 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
Jer 22:22 The wind shall eat up all thy pastors, and thy lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shalt thou be ashamed and confounded for all thy wickedness.
Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

Mt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mt 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

Lu 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
Lu 11:47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
Lu 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
 
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TKICBS

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I have noticed lately that discussions on the Lake of Fire is favoring those who think that the punishment is greater than the crime and that the Lake of Fire is actually a Lake of Love and people will get converted in the Lake of Love then they will be let into heaven or that the length of stay in the Lake of Fire will be short and ALL people who ever existed will end up in the Kingdom of God. The standard view is that the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) will be the eternal home of all those who hate God and a place where God's presence is totally missing.

So lets have some views on this keeping some of these scriptures and thoughts in mind.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For those who propose that humans will have a short stay in the fire does that include the devil and his angels? They have feelings also. They are God's created beings whom He loves even now.

Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

If the Fire is a short stay why would have Jesus have you enter the Kingdom of God crippled than go to the Fire?

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is 1000 earth years later and the beast and false prophet are still there and exactly how long is forever and ever?

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

comments?

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

comments?
Scripture is not that hard to understand. It is accepting it that is hard. No-one wants to think their loved ones might or did end up in hell. However, if they died in their sin it is a done deal. Accept it and move on. Why take the chance at becoming a false teacher or a false prophet and end up in hell as well. Wisdom is the tree of life to those who find it.
 
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TKICBS

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I agree. If we look at scripture, we see Jesus is among the covenant people, He is not even sent to people outside of the covenant. So Jesus is in the midst of believers in the Lord. He is not judging among those outside of His people; He is judging His people. And His judgment of the "standard" teachers is, not good to say the least. I think most Christians expect God to come judging the non-Christians, but I believe we'll find this is not the way it goes. He will be found to come to judge His own people. The crosshairs of judgment are square upon the Christian preachers. We find time and again, these are the ones God is holding responsible:

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Jer 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
Jer 22:22 The wind shall eat up all thy pastors, and thy lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shalt thou be ashamed and confounded for all thy wickedness.
Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

Mt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mt 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

Lu 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
Lu 11:47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
Lu 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Judgement begins in the House of the Lord
 
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throughfiierytrial

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I have noticed lately that discussions on the Lake of Fire is favoring those who think that the punishment is greater than the crime and that the Lake of Fire is actually a Lake of Love and people will get converted in the Lake of Love then they will be let into heaven or that the length of stay in the Lake of Fire will be short and ALL people who ever existed will end up in the Kingdom of God. The standard view is that the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) will be the eternal home of all those who hate God and a place where God's presence is totally missing.

So lets have some views on this keeping some of these scriptures and thoughts in mind.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For those who propose that humans will have a short stay in the fire does that include the devil and his angels? They have feelings also. They are God's created beings whom He loves even now.

Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

If the Fire is a short stay why would have Jesus have you enter the Kingdom of God crippled than go to the Fire?

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is 1000 earth years later and the beast and false prophet are still there and exactly how long is forever and ever?

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

comments?

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

comments?
My thoughts and beliefs run very fundamental here...the Lake of Fire a Lake of eternal Fire prepared for the devil and all the condemned.
BTW, I'd give you a "AGREE" or something on your thoughts and comments in the OP, but of course there is no opportunity.
 
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david.d

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Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire"

Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Matthew 3:12 KJV
 
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david.d

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And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
Matthew 8:26 KJV

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 16:16‭-‬19 KJV

Why are you all so afraid of the truth? Do you fear doctrines or God? God could strike us all down right now for the corrupt fruit we have beared. But he hasn't. Because we are now good and we now bear good fruit, because good can not bear evil. We are born again separate from corruption, from our flesh. The kingdom of heaven is the church:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Matthew 7:13‭-‬24 KJV

Have faith that God will have mercy on whom he has mercy and we are HIS and have nothing to fear but God and give glory to Him whom isn't putting us all in eternal fire.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Revelation 14:6‭-‬7 KJV
 
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Der Alte

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Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Matthew 3:12 KJV
I'm not sure I am correctly understanding you. Chaff is an integral part of he wheat not something distinct from it. Chaff is the inedible outer husk of the wheat grain which is separated and destroyed. The analogy here is man's sins and sinful nature are destroyed.
 
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ShermanN

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Concerning Revelation's lake of fire, actually it is "the lake of the fire and the brimstone". People typically picture the LOF as a lake of molten lava, but is that what John saw? I think not. In fact, there is a lake in Israel that is very closely associated with fire and brimstone - the Dead Sea. On the west bank of the Dead Sea are the ash remains of the 5 cities (Sodom and Gomorrah were two of the five) destroyed by God in judgment by fire and brimstone. So it is likely, imo, that John was referencing the Dead Sea, not some volcanic lake of molten lava.

Concerning interpreting John's Revelation, it's important to note that it is Apocalyptic literature, a type of literature common to the 1st century Jew, a style of literature not meant to be interpreted literally, but figuratively or metaphorically. It's more like interpreting scenes from a movie like 'Lord of the Rings or The Lion', 'The Witch, and The Wardrobe'. It is not meant to be interpreted like one would interpret the historical narratives of the Gospels, or the letters from Paul.

Concerning the LOF being Gehenna, well, that's completely inaccurate. Gehenna is an English transliteration of the Greek geennan (wish I could type in the Greek lettering), which is a transliteration of the Hebrew phrase Ga Hinnom, which correctly translated into English would be "Hinnom Valley". It is a real valley on the SSW side of Jerusalem/Mt. Zion, actually more like a ravine. It is where the Jews erected an idol, Molech, with the head of a bull, torso of a man, and belly of a furnace, a power god that they actually sacrificed their children to. Jeremiah an Isaiah prophesied against this practice and warned of God's coming judgment, the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, with the bodies being piled high in Hinnom Valley, eaten by wild animals and maggots (worms that don't die) and consumed by fire that won't go out fueled by sulfur. Warning of being cast in Hinnom Valley would be as emotionally wrenching to the 1st century Jew as saying to a Jew today, "Listen, if you don't repent you'll burn in the fire's of Auschwitz!", except warning of being cast into Hinnom Valley was even worse for it spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, all that they loved, and their families being carried off into captivity, etc. Mistranslating Gehenna as Hell is the most tragic mistranslation of scripture in all of history! It rips it from it's historical and cultural context and completely perverts the message and nullifies it of its power to call anyone to repentance. Such warnings were meant to call the children of God to repentance, but mistranslating it to be about Hell doesn't call anyone to repentance. Believers don't feel the warnings apply to them because they are saved; and unbelievers don't care what they say.

Well, anyhow, back to the LOF; the LOF is NOT Hinnom Valley. And the LOF was likely not picturing a molten lake of lava but was likely the Dead Sea. And being cast into the Dead Sea is much different than being cast into a lake of molten lava. The Dead Sea was in walking distance of Jerusalem. And in the literary context of Revelation, every mention of the nations and the kings before The Dead Sea scene, the nations and the kings were aligned with the anti-Christ. After the Dead Sea scene the kings bring their wealth into the New Jerusalem and the leaves of the trees by the river of life are for the healing of the nations! So the nations and the kings are being healed and blessed by God, actually participating in the atmosphere of blessing of the New Jerusalem. You've likely heard it said that "A text without a context is a pretext"! This is very true. So one must realize that 1) Revelation is apocalyptic literature, 2) the LOF was likely the Dead Sea, and 3) the nations and the kings are in the New Jerusalem after the LOF scene when they were anti-Christ before the LOF scene.

Frankly, I think the LOF scene pictures God's judgment of us all, where all that is worthless is revealed as worthless, dead, good for nothing but to be thrown into the Dead Sea. But in the end of the movie everyone is worshiping God and being healed!
 
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Bluerose31

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I have noticed lately that discussions on the Lake of Fire is favoring those who think that the punishment is greater than the crime and that the Lake of Fire is actually a Lake of Love and people will get converted in the Lake of Love then they will be let into heaven or that the length of stay in the Lake of Fire will be short and ALL people who ever existed will end up in the Kingdom of God. The standard view is that the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) will be the eternal home of all those who hate God and a place where God's presence is totally missing.

So lets have some views on this keeping some of these scriptures and thoughts in mind.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For those who propose that humans will have a short stay in the fire does that include the devil and his angels? They have feelings also. They are God's created beings whom He loves even now.

Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

If the Fire is a short stay why would have Jesus have you enter the Kingdom of God crippled than go to the Fire?

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is 1000 earth years later and the beast and false prophet are still there and exactly how long is forever and ever?

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

comments?

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

comments?

I believe everyone will go to heaven. I am a Christian but I dont believe in hell or the lake of fire. I believe in a lake of love. I think everyone will be saved.
 
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ShermanN

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btw, Hell is not a "biblical" word or concept. Tragically the Hebrew word Sheol, and Greek words Hades and Gehenna were all mistranslated as Hell in the KJV. Thankfully, these mistranslations are being progressively corrected in modern translations or at the least simply transliterated. Sheol and Hades both are general terms for grave or realm of the dead. And Gehenna is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew Ga Hinnom which correctly translated would be Hinnom Valley or the Valley of Hinnom - a literal valley SSW of Jerusalem. There is a Greek word that would be correctly translated as Hell - Tartarus which was the hellish realm of Hades in Greek mythology. But there is not even a Biblical Hebraic word that means Hell.

It seems to me that if there was a Hell, that it would have been named and warned of specifically and repeatedly in scripture; but it is not, not even once. Rather, the concept of Hell was mistranslated into scripture and has become such a foundational theological concept that few Christians are willing to even consider there not being a Hell. Some are willing to consider Conditionalism (Annihilationism), but very few are willing to seriously consider if Jesus really is Savior of All (Universalism) as scripture declares Him to be (1 Tim. 4:10). For Catholicism, Arminianism, and Calvinism Hell is a unquestionable foundational theological concept that their whole soteriology is built upon. To remove Hell is to shake everything built upon belief in Hell.

It's interesting, Calvinism's soteriology is built upon the belief that 1) God is sovereign, and 2) that there is a Hell (or at least annihilated) and some are certainly lost. Arminianism's soteriology is built upon the belief that 1) God is love, and 2) that there is a Hell (or at least annihilated) and some are certainly lost. Universalism embraces both that 1) God is sovereign, and 2) that God is love; thus in His love God sovereignly works so as to reconcile all of creation to himself (Col. 1.20).

Calvinism and Arminianism both limit the Atonement. Calvinism limits the Atonement in Scope affirming that Jesus did not die for everyone. Arminianism limits the Atonement in Power affirming that it is not the sacrifice of Jesus that ultimately saves us, rather it is our right choice to have faith that saves us. Both Calvinism and Arminianism limit the Atonement because of their belief that some are certainly lost (condemned to Hell or annihilated). Those who believe in Universal Reconciliation do not limit the Atonement; rather, they (we) believe that Jesus' sacrifice overcomes completely both the sin of Adam and all our sins too (Rom. 5:18). And we believe that one day every knee shall bow in worship and every tongue shall joyfully proclaim that Jesus is Lord of all, not our of compulsion but out of revelation! When Jesus is fully revealed then all shall joyfully worship Him!

Belief in Jesus being truly savior of all changes our focus from the someday to today. Instead of repenting so that we can go to heaven someday, we repent so that we can participate in the kingdom of heaven today! And btw, Universal Reconciliation is Good News; belief in Hell is Bad News! It's no wonder few Christians are active in evangelism because belief in Hell is Bad News! And no one likes to be the bearer of bad news.
 
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surrender1

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...Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels....
comments?
In the Old Testament, *sheol* refers to “the grave” (cf. Num. 16:30,33; Ps. 16:10). Everyone went to Sheol when they died, not just the wicked. Sheol was not a “place of suffering” for we see Job asking to go there to escape suffering. Also, International Standard Bible Encyclopedia refers to it as “the unseen world” and Young’s Analytical Concordance refers to it as “the unseen state.”

The Greek word *hades* means “the grave” not “hell.” The word *hades*, often translated as “hell,” came into biblical usage when the Septuagint translators chose it to represent the Hebrew word *sheol*. Everyone went to Hades when they died, not just the wicked. Luke 16 pictures righteous Lazarus in hades, and Acts 2:27, 31 says Jesus was there. In 1 Cor. 15:15 Paul used the same word when he said, “O, death, where is thy sting? O, *grave* where is thy victory?” We also see “death and hades” as a unit in Rev. 1:18, Rev. 6:8 and Rev. 20:13, 14. Again, sheol/hades refers to “the grave” or “the dead who are *unseen*.”

Both *sheol* and *hades* are also used in relation to national judgments (i.e. leading to the *vanishing* of a nation). See Isa. 14:13, 15, Ezek. 26:19-21, Mt. 11:23 and Lk. 10:15. Babylon, Tyre, and Capernaum were judged and “brought down to hades.” They did not go to some particular location; they were utterly destroyed and consequently vanished. Jesus warned the generation of his time that the nation of Israel was going to be judged (cf. Mt. 12:41; Lk. 11:29-32). By AD 70 that nation to which Jesus spoke did, indeed, go through a fiery judgment.

So, we see that *sheol* and its equivalent word *hades* refer to the dead who are unseen and to national judgments. The only time “hell” is actually used in the Bible is in 2 Peter 2:4 where Peter speaks about the abode of fallen angels (“Tartarus”) awaiting judgment. So, hell is not eternal and it’s not for humans.

Speaking of “fiery” national judgments, John the Baptist’s preaching consisted of announcements of an *imminent* (“who warned you to flee from the wrath to come” Lk. 3:7 and “Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees” Mt. 3:10, Lk. 3:9) fiery judgment (cf. Mt. 3:12 “unquenchable fire”) on Israel if she didn’t repent. That *imminent* fire was the fire that came upon Jerusalem in AD 70. See also Luke 12:56 where Jesus warns of the imminent crisis to come upon that generation.

*Gehenna* is also commonly translated “hell.” Gehenna is derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. “This was a valley near Jerusalem, and appears to have held this name perhaps as far back as the time of Joshua. This valley was used by the more idolatrous kings of Judah as a place where they would sacrifice their own children to the god Moloch. It may also have been the location where, in a single night, the Messenger of Yahweh killed a massive number of Assyrians from the army of Sennacherib. Going from there, it was traditionally associated with the location Isaiah refers to in his final chapter ('they shall go out' implies exiting Jerusalem into the valley), where *dead* bodies are devoured by unquenchable fire (i.e. fire that does not stop burning until it has completely consumed everything in its path) and undying worms (i.e. the maggots that unceasingly feast upon corpses). In ancient Aramaic translations of this chapter of Isaiah, the dead bodies are explicitly stated to be in the Valley of Hinnom, where the wicked suffered the 'second death'. Jesus confirms the traditional association by describing the Valley of Hinnom in the same way Isaiah describes the location filled with unquenchable fire and maggots. The Valley of Hinnom is only ever used by Jesus (with a single, extraneous usage by James) when speaking to his fellow Jews. He uses it especially when warning them about sinning unrepentantly. Jesus uses the Valley of Hinnom because it had become a common symbol for God's divine punishment. In this sense, it is analogous to the lake of fire (especially since both are referred to as the 'second death'). According to Jesus, God is able to destroy both body and soul in the Valley of Hinnom.” (“The History of Hell” by Mark Edward). See Joshua 18:16, 2 Kings 23:10 and 2 Chron. 33:6. I’d like to emphasize Luke 12:5 where it states that *after* God has killed the wicked ones, He has authority to cast the wicked *dead* into “hell” (actually, Gehenna), which is why it is called the “second death”—the dead body goes through a second death in the unquenchable fire that devours the dead body until it has been completely consumed.

So to the Jews, the Valley of Hinnom (aka Gehenna) came to mean a place of burning and fiery judgment. Josephus indicates that that very same valley was heaped with dead bodies of the Jews following the Roman siege of Jerusalem AD 70.

There are twelve passages with the use of *Gehenna*. The first occurrence of the word *Gehenna* is in Mt. 5:21-22 in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus warns, “…and whosoever shall say, ‘Thou fool’ shall be in danger of the hell of fire.” When Jesus’ audience heard his use of this word, what came to mind was the Valley of Hinnom, the place of burning and fiery judgment where Yahweh had slaughtered the wicked Assyrians, where Isaiah said the dead bodies of the wicked are devoured by unquenchable fire and undying worms, where the dead bodies of the wicked undergo the “second death.” The other nine passages where Jesus uses the word *Gehenna* are found in Mt. 5:29-30, 10:28, 18:9, Mk. 9:43-45, 23:15, and Lk. 12:4-5. In all, Jesus is speaking to and warning the unrepentant Jews of his generation of what is to come if they do not repent and believe his words.

The eleventh occurrence is in Mt. 23:33 and just three verses later Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation.” Again, this speaks to the imminency of the judgment to come (which included being thrown into “hell” (actually, Gehenna) upon their death & experiencing the “second death”) upon that generation if they did not repent.

The twelfth and last time the word *Gehenna* is used is found in James 3:6. It’s interesting to note that James uses the word in a very similar context as the first time the word was used: misuse of the tongue. Jesus condemns one who curses another with the tongue and James condemns misuse of the tongue: “…out of the same mouth cometh forth blessing and cursing.”

As previously mentioned, the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) is only ever used by Jesus (with the one exception by James) when speaking to his fellow Jews because it had become a common symbol for God's divine punishment, and the nation to which Jesus spoke was about to endure a fiery judgment in their lifetime (i.e. generation). Even in James when he uses the word, he warns of the coming slaughter (Jas. 5:5), the coming of the Lord (Jas. 5:8), and that the judge stands before the door (Jas. 5:9). Jesus was “standing at the door”! Divine judgment was about to come upon these very people, this nation, and the warning of being cast into “hell” (Gehanna), the place outside of Jerusalem where dead bodies were cast to be utterly consumed by unquenchable fire, was used with these people specifically because they knew exactly what Jesus meant by it: national judgment is coming.
 
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geiroffenberg

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btw, Hell is not a "biblical" word or concept. ... Sheol and Hades both are general terms for grave or realm of the dead. ...But there is not even a Biblical Hebraic word that means Hell.
Hades definitly is the realm of the dead, but i think a lot of verses in the old testament will not make sense if sheol is simply grave. Also it seems to be used interchangable for the place of the dead, it uses language of gathering ppl to their forefathers in this place. And then you have saul conjouring up the spirit of samuel from the dead, so it seems that the word sheol is more about that place, but tehre are other hebrew words that simply means grave, namely Strong h6900, qeburah and 6913 qeber.
On top of that, old jewish understanding in the time of Jesus of sheol is of a gathering place for the dead until the final judgement, not just the grave.
The old septuagine translates hades from sheol. It would definitly seem that for jewish translators, who used the word hades, and this is a closer source to how the jewish writers of the new testament uses it than greek mythology, uses sheol and hades for the same concept. Nor Jesus or any of the new testament writers takes time to correct it but rather confirm it by using the word hades in the greek translations in the same traditions as the septuagint, namely for the place of the spirits of the dead.
 
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Blade

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Well what we cant get lost in or let in is US aka flesh and how we personally feel. Read the OT..OLD is a bad word for He has not changed and it is not old. Yeshua/Jesus is the door in period. Some may be blind so.. if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains. No sin can enter heaven. Yet JESUS is the door.

When man says many will be lost few will be saved. Shows me many will be saved. For me its far easier to be saved then lost. Yet there are those that do not want God. There are those like believers in Jesus that KNOW He is real..yet do not want Him. To follow satan.. they get the same reward. God is just.

Jesus even said.. if I had not come and spoke they would have no sin. There was set in motion a plan before the fall. All this .. God has a plan. I personally do not believe anyone is lost because they never knew the truth. Its when YOU hear JESUS is the way the truth and the life...yet.. you have to SEE...hear.. when it cuts to your soul spirit... and then you make a choice. But a simple death i this world does not = lost forever.

Praise GOD what I think is not set in stone. And praise GOD I dont know the heart of anyone.. and my Father opens HIS books and HE sees and HE makes the call. WE never get to.
 
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