The Lake of Fire

[Steven Beck]

I have noticed lately that discussions on the Lake of Fire is favoring those who think that the punishment is greater than the crime and that the Lake of Fire is actually a Lake of Love and people will get converted in the Lake of Love then they will be let into heaven or that the length of stay in the Lake of Fire will be short and ALL people who ever existed will end up in the Kingdom of God. The standard view is that the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) will be the eternal home of all those who hate God and a place where God's presence is totally missing.

So lets have some views on this keeping some of these scriptures and thoughts in mind.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For those who propose that humans will have a short stay in the fire does that include the devil and his angels? They have feelings also. They are God's created beings whom He loves even now.

Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

If the Fire is a short stay why would have Jesus have you enter the Kingdom of God crippled than go to the Fire?

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is 1000 earth years later and the beast and false prophet are still there and exactly how long is forever and ever?

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

comments?

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

comments?

 

[Talihood]

Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire"

 

[CrystalDragon]

I have noticed lately that discussions on the Lake of Fire is favoring those who think that the punishment is greater than the crime and that the Lake of Fire is actually a Lake of Love and people will get converted in the Lake of Love then they will be let into heaven or that the length of stay in the Lake of Fire will be short and ALL people who ever existed will end up in the Kingdom of God. The standard view is that the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) will be the eternal home of all those who hate God and a place where God's presence is totally missing.

So lets have some views on this keeping some of these scriptures and thoughts in mind.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For those who propose that humans will have a short stay in the fire does that include the devil and his angels? They have feelings also. They are God's created beings whom He loves even now.

Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

If the Fire is a short stay why would have Jesus have you enter the Kingdom of God crippled than go to the Fire?

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is 1000 earth years later and the beast and false prophet are still there and exactly how long is forever and ever?

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

comments?

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

comments?

Ever notice how heavily symbolic Revelation is? It's not meant to be taken literally and it was addressed to the Old tribes of the time.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Der Alte]

Ever notice how heavily symbolic Revelation is? It's not meant to be taken literally and it was addressed to the Old tribes of the time.

Revelation is addressed to seven city churches in Asia, what is now modern day Turkey; Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. And while that is true all scripture is written "for us," not necessarily "to us." And an old maxim for Bible interpretation,"If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."

 

[RaymondG]

You have some good points here. You mention that lake of fire is translated (Gehenna).....Wasnt that I location on the earth where Garage was thrown and burnt? Worms ate the garbage and the fires ceased not until all the garbage was consumed?

You also likened it to a place where God is totally missing. Are you implying that God is not omnipresent? There there could be a place where God isnt? The scriptures state that, even if I make my bed in Hell, God is there.....

What do you feel about the pottering process? When God makes, mold and remakes us....fire is required

Or how about this: God is in us all. He is that precious stone in the ground that, when we find it, we sell everything else to keep it. But this golden stone is now covered in worthless rock and clay. What the miners do to separate the two is........Put it in fire. It goes in dirty, and comes out pure gold.


These are just ideas... I have no problem with others threatening fire on people who dont follow their interpretations of the scriptures. However, I personally believe that the teachings of the Love of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is all the is required.

 

[redleghunter]

Ever notice how heavily symbolic Revelation is? It's not meant to be taken literally and it was addressed to the Old tribes of the time.

Which parts of Revelation are to be taken symbolically? How are we to address chapters 2 and 3 where Jesus tells John to write to the 7 churches. Were they symbolic, real?

Understanding your point Revelation is a prophetic book, there will be symbols and heavy uses of metaphors. For example the beast as a dragon and the woman who rides the dragon. Got it, don't think a giant dragon is going to be roaming the earth with a harlot rider. That is obviously the use of symbols. What we should consider is the symbols have meaning as "Root of Jesse" and "Emmanuel" did in the OT. These were obvious symbols for a literal truth---Messiah Jesus Son of God.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Which parts of Revelation are to be taken symbolically? How are we to address chapters 2 and 3 where Jesus tells John to write to the 7 churches. Were they symbolic, real?

Understanding your point Revelation is a prophetic book, there will be symbols and heavy uses of metaphors. For example the beast as a dragon and the woman who rides the dragon. Got it, don't think a giant dragon is going to be roaming the earth with a harlot rider. That is obviously the use of symbols. What we should consider is the symbols have meaning as "Root of Jesse" and "Emmanuel" did in the OT. These were obvious symbols for a literal truth---Messiah Jesus Son of God.

The fact that it was supposed to be to the 7 churches indicates it wasn't meant for any future time. It was symbolic as well as a message for the time, filled with imagery the church leaders would understand, like how the Beast is suspected to be a representation of Nero.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Ever notice how heavily symbolic Revelation is? It's not meant to be taken literally and it was addressed to the Old tribes of the time.

I disagree and think it is a literal book with some symbolic language. The woman who was about to have a child with the sun and moon and 11 stars is Israel as Josephs dream showed the same exact symbol. The Lord spoke specifically to watch for the abomination of desolation that Daniel spoke of. Jesus links these ideas Rev and Daniel as related and they both have a time in the middle of the week that the antichrist puts an end to the daily sacrifices and sets up an image that must be worshiped and no one can buy or sell with out the mark. You see Israel was destroyed in 70AD and many later interpreted this time as the time of Revelation. The covenants with Israel were then supposedly transferred to the church. So those who took a literal view of the prophecies guys like Isaac Newton expected to see the nation of Israel return to the global seen for these days to take place. Well Israel is back and at a time when global government is trying to be forced on the people. The Temple Institute has replicated everything necessary to resume the daily sacrifices not done since 70AD. This is just a shallow answer showing that the very backdrop for a literal fulfillment has evidence that these things are coming to pass. To dismiss this evidence would be foolish. You should look into the literal view a bit more and see how many themes are flashing red at this same time.

 

[CrystalDragon]

I disagree and think it is a literal book with some symbolic language. The woman who was about to have a child with the sun and moon and 11 stars is Israel as Josephs dream showed the same exact symbol. The Lord spoke specifically to watch for the abomination of desolation that Daniel spoke of. Jesus links these ideas Rev and Daniel as related and they both have a time in the middle of the week that the antichrist puts an end to the daily sacrifices and sets up an image that must be worshiped and no one can buy or sell with out the mark. You see Israel was destroyed in 70AD and many later interpreted this time as the time of Revelation. The covenants with Israel were then supposedly transferred to the church. So those who took a literal view of the prophecies guys like Isaac Newton expected to see the nation of Israel return to the global seen for these days to take place. Well Israel is back and at a time when global government is trying to be forced on the people. The Temple Institute has replicated everything necessary to resume the daily sacrifices not done since 70AD. This is just a shallow answer showing that the very backdrop for a literal fulfillment has evidence that these things are coming to pass. To dismiss this evidence would be foolish. You should look into the literal view a bit more and see how many themes are flashing red at this same time.

But John addressed it specifically to the leaders of the churches at the time.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

But John addressed it specifically to the leaders of the churches at the time.

Hi John was told to record 3 things in Revelation, Rev 1

“Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

chapter 1 John records the things he has seen, chapter 2 and 3 are the things that are and the rest of the book is prophetic talking about the things that will take place after this. The very idea it these things are going to take place. The specifics about the two prophets being literal is affirmed by Jesus when he said
And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”
11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist. Jesus affirms that Elijah is coming still; He is one of the two witnesses in Rev that do mighty signs and are killed and whole earth celebrates their death. This is not an allegory as they physically rise and ascend into heaven this has never happened. The Law of the prophets is they had to be 100 % correct. Peter says no prophecy is of any private interpretation. So I point to Luke 1 when Zacharias mouth was opened and he spoke by the Holy Spirit and predicted this,
Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

You see Jesus is a horn of salvation to Israel and he cites the covenant with Abraham that Israel will be delivered from the ir enemies to worship and serve the Lord without fear all the days of their lives. This deliverance has not happened. It is accomplished at the 2nd coming. In Rev it says Satan is bound for 1000 years. It says those beheaded at that time will live and reign with Jesus upon the earth and after the 1000 years Satan will be loosed one last time. Then that is the end of the age; the new heaven and earth and New jerusalem and the great white throne judgment. You can see in Zech 14 the 2nd coming of Jesus the beginning of the kingdom in which Israel is literally saved from their enemies and the LORD is king over all the earth and there is a definite continuation of events on earth as at that time all the nations must come to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. read Zech 14 and consider that this is still future that all these things converge making the literal interpretation fit into a very specific timeline with very specific events. It says in Zech 14 that the LORD comes with his saints and that the Mount of Olives splits in two and a new valley is formed and a new river will flow year round. It say that that specific day it will be light at night time. You see when Jesus was crucified it became dark in daytime. This is the opposite and it speaks of a melting of the enemies who were attacking Jerusalem. These are all specific future details. Consider how Zechariah predicted jesus riding in on the foal of a donkey and how Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver and the money given to the potter. He has been right on some very specific details in the 1st advent.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[SPF]

In addressing the OP in the part about the crime fitting the punishment. All of us acknowledge that the severity of punishment for crime is in large part determined by who the crime was against.

For example, if Bob is walking his dog down the street and a random person runs up with a baseball bat and beats Bob's dog to death, that man will be arrested and punished. Let's now imagine that the man instead of beating the dog to death with his baseball bat actually beats Bob to death with his baseball bat. Let's also say the man lives in Texas Chances are good that in the case of beating Bob to death the man will receive the death penalty. There's no chance the man would receive the death penalty for beating the dog to death. Same crime - murder. Different punishment though because the crimes committed against humans are considered worse than crimes against animals. We know this intuitively.

All sin is ultimately against God. God is eternal. An eternal punishment for crimes against an eternal God is not unjust.

 

[parousia70]

You see Israel was destroyed in 70AD and many later interpreted this time as the time of Revelation. The covenants with Israel were then supposedly transferred to the church.

Which would echo Jesus own teaching in Matthew 21:33-45, among others...

The Temple Institute has replicated everything necessary to resume the daily sacrifices not done since 70AD. This is just a shallow answer showing that the very backdrop for a literal fulfillment has evidence that these things are coming to pass. To dismiss this evidence would be foolish. You should look into the literal view a bit more and see how many themes are flashing red at this same time.

As long as we're being Literal, Who are the Priests that have already proven Aaronic descent who will Identify the rest of the temple priests and attendants by lineage? Do they know where the Urim and Thummim are (Ezra 2:59-63)?

Or are those mandates no longer Biblical?
Maybe they're no longer Literal?

 

[parousia70]

Hi John was told to record 3 things in Revelation, Rev 1

“Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

chapter 1 John records the things he has seen, chapter 2 and 3 are the things that are and the rest of the book is prophetic talking about the things that will take place after this.

So your position is that Jesus Christ already "came as a thief" to 1st century Sardis" (Revelation 3:3)?

That He already came to Thyatira and destroyed the prophetess Jezebel and Her Children (Revelation 2:22-23)?

When?

 

[Shempster]

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

All of us are guilty of these things so why should we escape? Because we believe properly?
Remember the high standard Yeshua set. If we even LOOK at a woman with lust we are adulterers. If we are angry with a brother it is the same as murder. Many folks say that taking drugs (pharmekia) is sorcery. Don't we all take drugs from time to time? They did not have illegal drugs around at the time, so I doubt it was speaking of cocaine.
Do you get the point?

 

[MWood]

All of us are guilty of these things so why should we escape? Because we believe properly?
Remember the high standard Yeshua set. If we even LOOK at a woman with lust we are adulterers. If we are angry with a brother it is the same as murder. Many folks say that taking drugs (pharmekia) is sorcery. Don't we all take drugs from time to time? They did not have illegal drugs around at the time, so I doubt it was speaking of cocaine.
Do you get the point?

Even though we are guilty of doing those same things, we will escape the Lake of Fire because of our belief. Those that don't believe will be the ones that are cast into the Lake of Fire. Not because they have done all of those things, but because they don't believe in the Son of God, and His death, burial, and resurrection. All of those things are sins. And all of the sins of the world were forgiven when Jesus shed His blood on the cross. Salvation, or Condemnation is not about the sin, but about the Son.

 

[parousia70]

Salvation, or Condemnation is not about the sin, but about the Son.

Excellent point.

There are 2 human realities.

1) you are either "in Adam" condemned whether you sin or not, or
2) you are "in Christ", saved even though you sin.

Sin is powerless.

Sin can not prevent you from salvation, and a lack of sin can not save you.