The Lake of Fire vs. Hell

[wendykvw]

My question is how do you view the lake of fire and hell. Are they both the same, or completely different? Share your point of view and how you came to your conclusion.

 

[DragonFox91]

I think souls go to hell, a real place. In the End Times, hell is eventually thrown into the lake of fire & destroyed. This is per the last couple chapters in Revelation. The Lake burns for eternity, not hell.

I know this is contrary to what a lot of churches teach (either souls suffer in hell for eterinity OR there is no hell). So yes, I know I believe contrary to what even churches I trust teach. Just reading Revelation & Jesus's words in the Gospels & some development of the history of hell theology, leads me to conclude this. The Lake burns hell for eternity. The souls are destroyed in the lake.

 

[wendykvw]

I think souls go to hell, a real place. In the End Times, hell is eventually thrown into the lake of fire & destroyed. This is per the last couple chapters in Revelation. The Lake burns for eternity, not hell.

I know this is contrary to what a lot of churches teach (either souls suffer in hell for eterinity OR there is no hell). So yes, I know I believe contrary to what even churches I trust teach. Just reading Revelation & Jesus's words in the Gospels & some development of the history of hell theology, leads me to conclude this. The Lake burns hell for eternity. The souls are destroyed in the lake.

Sounds like conditionalism,and annihilation. It has been one the views since the early Church. Certainly not the majority view, but it has gained supporters. The conference Re-Thinking hell is dedicated to presenting this view. Dr. Gregory. Boyd a Pentecostal Scholar, and Pastor is a popular supporter of this view.

 

[DavidPT]

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The first passage reveals that the entire body is cast into hell. Which means hell has to be the lake of fire since no one, when they die, descends into hell bodily. Which then apparently means no one is literally in hell being tormented upon death. They have to be raised from the dead first, then judged and sentenced. Which could mean, though it's not currently my position, soul sleep might be Biblical after all.

The 3rd passage indicates that the rich man has body parts, such as fingers and a tongue. Souls couldn't possibly have body parts like that, but resurrected bodies would. Therefore, based on this alone, these 4 passages above, I have basically concluded that hell and the lake of fire, these are one and the same.

 

[sandman]

My question is how do you view the lake of fire and hell. Are they both the same, or completely different? Share your point of view and how you came to your conclusion.

Can’t be the same since ….. And death and hell (hadēs) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:14

 

[Gregory Thompson]

In revelation "hell" is a place that is emptied out. The people from hell, and also the grave are compared with the book of life, and anyone not in it, get cast into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire is a separate location from hell.

The lake of fire also implied by the parable where the king says of those who would not be ruled by him to "kill them in my sight" that this second death is actually the "face" presence of God to those unprepared.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

My question is how do you view the lake of fire and hell. Are they both the same, or completely different? Share your point of view and how you came to your conclusion.

Hell is the Western understanding of the lake of fire.
Blessings

 

[DavidPT]

In revelation "hell" is a place that is emptied out. The people from hell, and also the grave are compared with the book of life, and anyone not in it, get cast into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire is a separate location from hell.

The lake of fire also implied by the parable where the king says of those who would not be ruled by him to "kill them in my sight" that this second death is actually the "face" presence of God to those unprepared.

Unless something at least makes sense, why even entertain it, let alone believe it? Why is it when an assumed lost person dies, their body is still here if the following is what happens to them the moment they die----that thy whole body should be cast into hell(Matthew 5:29) ? As if it makes sense that their whole body is cast into hell upon death when their whole body is still here when they die. That's usually what funerals involve, the burying of bodies. How can one's body be in two different places at the same time?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Unless something at least makes sense, why even entertain it, let alone believe it? Why is it when an assumed lost person dies, their body is still here if the following is what happens to them the moment they die----that thy whole body should be cast into hell(Matthew 5:29) ? As if it makes sense that their whole body is cast into hell upon death when their whole body is still here when they die. That's usually what funerals involve, the burying of bodies. How can one's body be in two different places at the same time?

You appear to be making a whole bunch of wild assumptions, explaining it would lead to more wild assumptions. The best strategy is to suggest you re-visit this thread in a week or longer to see if it helps with your perspective.

 

[Hmm]

My question is how do you view the lake of fire and hell. Are they both the same, or completely different? Share your point of view and how you came to your conclusion.

I see the lake of fire as the refining fire spoken of in Malachi 3:

"For he is like a refiner’s fire and like washers’ soap; 3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the descendants of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, until they present offerings to the Lord in righteousness."

God is like a refiner's fire and removes the dross from our character so that we become more Christlike with greater humility, compassion, gentleness, kindness, patience, peace, love etc.

Hell isn't a biblical word so who knows what it means but if we take it as referring to Hades, Revelation 20:14 says that death and Hades are actually cast into the lake of fire. I think this means that the more Christ-like we become, the more death and darkness are consumed.

 

[Andrewn]

I think souls go to hell, a real place. In the End Times, hell is eventually thrown into the lake of fire & destroyed. This is per the last couple chapters in Revelation. The Lake burns for eternity, not hell.

This is a translation issue. Hell is an English word. The NT talks about Hades and the Lake of Fire. Which one of them is Hell?

The KJV translated Hades as Hell for a good historical reason that I will not get into in order to not complicate the issue.

As @Maria Billingsley said, Hell is the Western understanding of the lake of fire. The popular picture of Hell applies to the LOF rather than Hades.

So, now we have two different applications to the word Hell. And this affects the meaning of the following:

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire,

Comment: After resurrection of the body, Hades was thrown into the LOF. One can say that Hell was thrown into the LOF, as per KJV. Or that Hades was thrown into Hell, as per popular understanding. Now we apply this to the other verses quoted in the thread:

Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is preferable for you to lose one part of your body than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna.

Comment: Now the issue is further complicated by the biblical use of a 3rd term, Gehenna. Since the body can be thrown into Gehenna, it must be the same as the LOF.

Mat 10:28 “Have no fear of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Comment: Again, both soul and body can be thrown into Gehenna/LOF/Hell.

Luk 16:23 In Hades, where he was being tormented, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side.

Comment: The soul of the rich man was in Hades. His body was not yet resurrected.

Rev 20:15 And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Comment: As mentioned above, after the resurrection of the body, the unrighteous will be judged and sentenced to Gehenna/LOF/Hell.

The first passage reveals that the entire body is cast into hell. Which means hell has to be the lake of fire since no one, when they die, descends into hell bodily. Which then apparently means no one is literally in hell being tormented upon death. They have to be raised from the dead first, then judged and sentenced.

Yes, this is what the NT teaches.

Which could mean, though it's not currently my position, soul sleep might be Biblical after all. The 3rd passage indicates that the rich man has body parts, such as fingers and a tongue. Souls couldn't possibly have body parts like that,

No, these are not necessary conclusions. They contradict the Bible and Church teaching.

but resurrected bodies would. Therefore, based on this alone, these 4 passages above, I have basically concluded that hell and the lake of fire, these are one and the same.

No, Hades and the LOF are not the same.

Can’t be the same since ….. And death and hell (hadēs) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:14

I agree with @sandman.

Why is it when an assumed lost person dies, their body is still here if the following is what happens to them the moment they die----that thy whole body should be cast into hell(Matthew 5:29) ? As if it makes sense that their whole body is cast into hell upon death when their whole body is still here when they die.

Mat 5:29 does not say that their whole body would be cast into hell immediately after death.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

My question is how do you view the lake of fire and hell. Are they both the same, or completely different? Share your point of view and how you came to your conclusion.

hell is temporal whereas the LOF is eternal . Hell is thrown into the LOF in the end.

see Revelation 20:14

 

[DavidPT]

Luk 16:23 In Hades, where he was being tormented, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side.

Comment: The soul of the rich man was in Hades. His body was not yet resurrected.

Apparently then, you must think that souls consist of body parts, such as fingers and a tongue.

No, Hades and the LOF are not the same.

Your position is very confusing and somewhat misleading. One minute you are agreeing with some of what I proposed, the next minute you are disagreeing with some of what I proposed that you initially agreed with.

For example, here you are agreeing with me.

Yes, this is what the NT teaches---and that you were agreeing to this---Which means hell has to be the lake of fire

Then, though you initially agreed with that, you turn around and disagree with that when you said---No, Hades and the LOF are not the same---when I said this---Therefore, based on this alone, these 4 passages above, I have basically concluded that hell and the lake of fire, these are one and the same.

Mat 5:29 does not say that their whole body would be cast into hell immediately after death.

Exactly! Therefore, why hell and the LOF have to be the same thing. That verse says nothing about being cast into the LOF, yet it has to be meaning the LOF since that is the only place one can be bodily cast into, since even you agree Matthew 5:29 does not say that their whole body would be cast into hell immediately after death. Yet, Jesus called that being cast into hell.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Jesus told that Lazarus and the rich man were in the earth one in a place of comfort and the other in a place of torment. So the place of torment is real and since it is in the earth it seem that the earth is destined to be destroyed and we see at the end of the millennium the dead who's names are not written in the Lamb;s book of life judged by the things they did in this life. These all are without excuse as having died without faith and achieving eternal life through the redemption in Jesus. This group is cast along with Satan and his into the Lake of fire. Now since the earth will melt with fervent heat and this place must be something different although it is very similar to where the rich man was.

 

[DavidPT]

Jesus told that Lazarus and the rich man were in the earth one in a place of comfort and the other in a place of torment. .

Though Jesus gave the impression in the parable that that is what happens immediately upon death, the following appears to prove that wrong since the following is yet to be fulfilled.

Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


And in the parable in question, the rich man was in outer darkness when he saw Abraham. The parable therefore is teaching what happens to the lost after they have been bodily resurrected, and not what happens to them the moment they die. Souls, unless one can prove it from the Bible, do not consist of body parts, such as fingers and a tongue. That is a description of a body not a soul.

 

[Andrewn]

Apparently then, you must think that souls consist of body parts, such as fingers and a tongue.

We, Christians, believe that souls are recognizable after death. We will meet our beloved family members, friends, and ancient saints and recognize them.

For example, here you are agreeing with me. Yes, this is what the NT teaches---and that you were agreeing to this---Which means hell has to be the lake of fire

Hell is the Western understanding of the lake of fire.

Then, though you initially agreed with that, you turn around and disagree with that when you said---No, Hades and the LOF are not the same

Hades and the LOF are not the same. I began my previous post by offering 2 different definitions of the English word Hell and in the rest of that post I equated Hell with the LOF and not with Hades.

That verse says nothing about being cast into the LOF, yet it has to be meaning the LOF since that is the only place one can be bodily cast into, since even you agree Matthew 5:29 does not say that their whole body would be cast into hell immediately after death. Yet, Jesus called that being cast into hell.

I agree. The Lord called that being cast into Gehenna, which many new Bible versions translate into Hell.

And in the parable in question, the rich man was in outer darkness when he saw Abraham. The parable therefore is teaching what happens to the lost after they have been bodily resurrected, and not what happens to them the moment they die.

The Bible says that Rich was cast into Hades, not the Outer Darkness.

 

[DavidPT]

You appear to be making a whole bunch of wild assumptions, explaining it would lead to more wild assumptions. The best strategy is to suggest you re-visit this thread in a week or longer to see if it helps with your perspective.

So why are you arguing that hell and the LOF are not the same place? That's what I was disputing via that post. Obviously, when one initially dies they are not cast into hell bodily, yet that passage in question shows that a lost person is cast bodily into hell, except you argue that hell is a different location than the LOF. When is it that you assume one's whole body is cast into hell and how exactly do you see that being accomplished if you disagree that hell is the same location as the LOF?

Why do I need to revisit this thread after taking a break from it? I'm not the one that seems to be confused about anything here. I'm the one agreeing with the texts involved, not disagreeing with them. No human can be bodily cast into hell unless they are bodily resurrected first, then judged and sentenced. That's just common sense. Therefore, the hell meant in the passage in question is meaning the LOF.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So why are you arguing that hell and the LOF are not the same place? That's what I was disputing via that post. Obviously, when one initially dies they are not cast into hell bodily, yet that passage in question shows that a lost person is cast bodily into hell, except you argue that hell is a different location than the LOF. When is that you assume one's whole body is cast into hell and how exactly do you see that being accomplished if you disagree that hell is the same location as the LOF?

Why do I need to revisit this thread after taking a break from it? I'm not the one that seems to be confused about anything here. I'm the one agreeing with the texts involved, not disagreeing with them. No human can be bodily cast into hell unless they are bodily resurrected first, then judged and sentenced. That's just common sense. Therefore, the hell meant in the passage in question is meaning the LOF.

because hell is emptied out, separate place, grave is also emptied out, separate place. Both groups gathered together, and judged if placed in lake of fire, obviously - not same place.

 

[wendykvw]

I see the lake of fire as the refining fire spoken of in Malachi 3:

"For he is like a refiner’s fire and like washers’ soap; 3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the descendants of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, until they present offerings to the Lord in righteousness."

God is like a refiner's fire and removes the dross from our character so that we become more Christlike with greater humility, compassion, gentleness, kindness, patience, peace, love etc.

Hell isn't a biblical word so who knows what it means but if we take it as referring to Hades, Revelation 20:14 says that death and Hades are actually cast into the lake of fire. I think this means that the more Christ-like we become, the more death and darkness are consumed.

It is my understanding the lake of fire describes God. Who is the refiner, judge and redeemer. He will destroy death and the grave and will create all things new. Death and suffering will no longer exist. A new age will begin and the old will vanish. Good news, the world will be reconciled to their creator.

 

[DavidPT]

because hell is emptied out, separate place, grave is also emptied out, separate place. Both groups gathered together, and judged if placed in lake of fire, obviously - not same place.

Yet, none of that explains how anyone's whole body can be cast into hell if you have hell not meaning the same thing as the LOF. How do you propose their whole body is cast into hell before their whole body is cast into the LOF? If they are not the same thing, it obviously means at some point their whole body has to be cast into hell, otherwise Jesus lied to us in that passage. And since no one's whole body is cast into hell upon death, this means it has to occur much later if hell and the LOF are not the same thing. How much later after one dies do you think their bodies are snatched out of their graves and cast into hell? You seriously don't see a problem here if hell and the LOF are not meaning the same thing?