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The Lake of Fire vs. Hell

The lake of fire and hell

  • Both are the same

  • They are not the same

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Gregory Thompson

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Yet, none of that explains how anyone's whole body can be cast into hell if you have hell not meaning the same thing as the LOF. How do you propose their whole body is cast into hell before their whole body is cast into the LOF? If they are not the same thing, it obviously means at some point their whole body has to be cast into hell, otherwise Jesus lied to us in that passage. And since no one's whole body is cast into hell upon death, this means it has to occur much later if hell and the LOF are not the same thing. How much later after one dies do you think their bodies are snatched out of their graves and cast into hell? You seriously don't see a problem here if hell and the LOF are not meaning the same thing?
I get what you're saying there. I'll live in that question.

If I get any ground breaking answers, I'll incorporate them into future responses.
 
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DavidPT

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It is my understanding the lake of fire describes God. Who is the refiner, judge and redeemer. He will destroy death and the grave and will create all things new. Death and suffering will no longer exist. A new age will begin and the old will vanish. Good news, the world will be reconciled to their creator.


In your view, is that also including the ones recorded in Revelation 20:10? That verse speaks of them being tormented day and night for ever and ever, which means suffering would still be taking place for for ever, at least in regards to them. As to no more death, that is irrelevent in regards to satan since death has never had an effect on him one way or the other. He obviously was created immortal and can never die. Might be why the text says he shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 
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wendykvw

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In your view, is that also including the ones recorded in Revelation 20:10? That verse speaks of them being tormented day and night for ever and ever, which means suffering would still be taking place for for ever, at least in regards to them. As to no more death, that is irrelevent in regards to satan since death has never had an effect on him one way or the other. He obviously was created immortal and can never die. Might be why the text says he shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Isaiah 34:10, for example, says that the smoke of Edom's destruction will ascend up forever and ever - it will not be quenched night and day. Forever, and ever describes a process that is unstoppable and irreversible.


The end result will be all of creation praising God. Revelation and other parts of scripture indicate a happy ending where death, the grave, and wickedness will no longer exist.
 
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Receivedgrace

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Isaiah 34:10, for example, says that the smoke of Edom's destruction will ascend up forever and ever - it will not be quenched night and day. Forever, and ever describes a process that is unstoppable and irreversible.


The end result will be all of creation praising God. Revelation and other parts of scripture indicate a happy ending where death, the grave, and wickedness will no longer exist.
All of the new creation will praise God. The former creation is forever destroyed. Death, sin, the grave, the devil and his angels will be eternally destroyed. A never-ending process in the lake of fire. God's anger and wrath forever abides on all evil.
I have often warned lost souls that if they die and awake in flames there is no end to them no matter what any church has taught them to the contrary.
Universalism is a lovey, flowery religion but it has no basis in biblical fact. Christ the Dear Son of God did not suffer the shame of the cross in vain. Sin is worthy of eternal condemnation and any soul that refuses to forsake that sin and receive Christ will spend eternity in condemnation because of it.
 
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FineLinen

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Universalism is a lovey, flowery religion but it has no basis in biblical fact.

Good grief, are you unaware that the Master of reconciliation declares He will thelo ALL mankind unto Himself? The word in koine is very strong, indicating total success. In every verse in the New Covenant using thelo, that which is drawn comes!!

"He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ.... ~Weymouth
 
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wendykvw

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All of the new creation will praise God. The former creation is forever destroyed. Death, sin, the grave, the devil and his angels will be eternally destroyed. A never-ending process in the lake of fire. God's anger and wrath forever abides on all evil.
I have often warned lost souls that if they die and awake in flames there is no end to them no matter what any church has taught them to the contrary.
Universalism is a lovey, flowery religion but it has no basis in biblical fact. Christ the Dear Son of God did not suffer the shame of the cross in vain. Sin is worthy of eternal condemnation and any soul that refuses to forsake that sin and receive Christ will spend eternity in condemnation because of it.
Universalism proclaims the victory of Jesus Christ. If you interpet this as "flowery" so be it.
 
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Der Alte

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Universalism proclaims the victory of Jesus Christ. If you interpet this as "flowery" so be it.
And ignores all the vss, which refute the UR claim that all mankind will be saved even after death.
EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of continuous Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV and to define them correctly.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



 
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Der Alte

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Isaiah 34:10, for example, says that the smoke of Edom's destruction will ascend up forever and ever - it will not be quenched night and day. Forever, and ever describes a process that is unstoppable and irreversible.
How does that /\
Result in this \/

wendykvw said:
The end result will be all of creation praising God. Revelation and other parts of scripture indicate a happy ending where death, the grave, and wickedness will no longer exist.
 
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DavidPT

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Isaiah 34:10, for example, says that the smoke of Edom's destruction will ascend up forever and ever - it will not be quenched night and day. Forever, and ever describes a process that is unstoppable and irreversible.


The end result will be all of creation praising God. Revelation and other parts of scripture indicate a happy ending where death, the grave, and wickedness will no longer exist.


As to the passage you brought up, that could be meaning the following in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever

And if it is, though I'm not entirely certain it is, but if it is, this in Revelation 19 hasn't been fulfilled yet. So, we don't know what that might look like until it is fulfilled. It might end up looking like this---It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

I don't know how anyone can get around this part---none shall pass through it for ever and ever---which is one major reason why it makes me think Isaiah 34:10 has not been fulfilled yet and might be meaning Revelation 19:2-3. What should we take for ever and ever to mean here? A finite period that has an end eventually? Or the opposite, there is no end eventually, it is literally meaning without end?
 
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Receivedgrace

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Universalism proclaims the victory of Jesus Christ. If you interpet this as "flowery" so be it.
The resurrection of Christ declares His victory. Universalism diminishes the value of His sacrifice on the cross of Calvary.
 
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Receivedgrace

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Good grief, are you unaware that the Master of reconciliation declares He will thelo ALL mankind unto Himself? The word in koine is very strong, indicating total success. In every verse in the New Covenant using thelo, that which is drawn comes!!

"He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ.... ~Weymouth
The stench of sin is so foul in the nostrils of God. Christ made the only atonement possible to satisfy the Father. Yet it is of no avail to those who refuse to submit to Christ as Savior. After death (physical) it is impossible to change just as it is impossible for man to make atonement of his own volition.
Narrow is the way that leads to eternal life. Few there be that enter therein. Many perish in the darkness of sin completely without hope of peace in eternity.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
 
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FineLinen

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The stench of sin is so foul in the nostrils of God. Christ made the only atonement possible to satisfy the Father.

The at-one-ment flows out of God to the entire creation for whom, & in whom, He is the great High Priest.

When our High Priest declares "it is finished", there is nothing to add!

We live by THE faith of the Son of God.
 
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Der Alte

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As to the passage you brought up, that could be meaning the following in Revelation 19.
Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever
And if it is, though I'm not entirely certain it is, but if it is, this in Revelation 19 hasn't been fulfilled yet. So, we don't know what that might look like until it is fulfilled. It might end up looking like this---It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
I don't know how anyone can get around this part---none shall pass through it for ever and ever---which is one major reason why it makes me think Isaiah 34:10 has not been fulfilled yet and might be meaning Revelation 19:2-3. What should we take for ever and ever to mean here? A finite period that has an end eventually? Or the opposite, there is no end eventually, it is literally meaning without end?
In some instances "for ever and ever", "eternal", "everlasting" etc. may be used figuratively or hyperbolically but such use does not change the inherent meaning. I have reviewed every occurrence of "aionios" in the N.T. and found 26 verses which define/describe "aionios" as "eternal," "everlasting" etc. here is a link to a previous post whare I post those verses. The decline of hell doctrine and church attendance
 
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FineLinen

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The resurrection of Christ declares His victory. Universalism diminishes the value of His sacrifice on the cross of Calvary.

The Lord Jesus Christ has secured release for the entire creation. The whole broken sons of Adam 1 "shall be delivered".

Shall, not might or could be.
 
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wendykvw

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As to the passage you brought up, that could be meaning the following in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever

And if it is, though I'm not entirely certain it is, but if it is, this in Revelation 19 hasn't been fulfilled yet. So, we don't know what that might look like until it is fulfilled. It might end up looking like this---It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

I don't know how anyone can get around this part---none shall pass through it for ever and ever---which is one major reason why it makes me think Isaiah 34:10 has not been fulfilled yet and might be meaning Revelation 19:2-3. What should we take for ever and ever to mean here? A finite period that has an end eventually? Or the opposite, there is no end eventually, it is literally meaning without end?
As to the passage you brought up, that could be meaning the following in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever

And if it is, though I'm not entirely certain it is, but if it is, this in Revelation 19 hasn't been fulfilled yet. So, we don't know what that might look like until it is fulfilled. It might end up looking like this---It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

I don't know how anyone can get around this part---none shall pass through it for ever and ever---which is one major reason why it makes me think Isaiah 34:10 has not been fulfilled yet and might be meaning Revelation 19:2-3. What should we take for ever and ever to mean here? A finite period that has an end eventually? Or the opposite, there is no end eventually, it is literally meaning without end?

Phrases like “smoke will go up forever” are not meant to be taken literally for it’s quite clear smoke is not still rising up from Edom.

Isa 34:10 is figurative and is provided from the fact that we’re told “None will pass through it forever and ever.” But we know that people pass through Edom every day so this passage is not teaching that nobody will ever pass through Edom. Forever and ever is a long period, but it is not infinity, there is an end. And as we compare other scripture in Revelation, we should understand that wickedness, suffering, and death will not remain in a perpetual state of conscience suffering. All things will be made new, suffering, and wickedness will not remain in the universe forever, but has an end.

Revelation 21:4

"He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’ and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.”
 
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wendykvw

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The resurrection of Christ declares His victory. Universalism diminishes the value of His sacrifice on the cross of Calvary.
Universalism does not diminish Christ's sacrifice, it upholds it.
 
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Der Alte

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Revelation 21:4
"He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’ and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Almost anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context, as you have done here.
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 'Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and ho1y is the one who has part in the first resurrection! Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests” of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they, all 3] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who was a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
Three living, sentient, beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell are living things and could not/did not die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence. There is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
My name for these two sentient beings is, “the angel of death” and “the demon of hell.” Others can feel free to call them whatever they want. The 2 beings are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….Additional verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death.” In vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
No more death” but 3 verses later, Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous; [the]fearful, [the] unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and liars “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still called] the second death.”
If there is “no more death,” after vs. 4, then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
The last chapter of the Bible, Rev. 22:11., 10 more vss. No more salvation, no more destruction, no more death, only “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still.”
 
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wendykvw

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And ignores all the vss, which refute the UR claim that all mankind will be saved even after death.
EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of continuous Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV and to define them correctly.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Many who profess faith will enter into the fire. The fire has a purpose. The end result will be beauty rising up from the ashes. God's punishments are remedial and reforming and last for a period of time.

Presbyterian minister, professor of New Testament exegesis at Union Theological Seminary in New York City. In his Word Studies in the New Testament Vincent explains the meaning of the words often translated ‘eternity’ and ‘eternal’ in the Bible, though these words in most (if not all) cases denote limited durations.

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go to the chastening* of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age.”
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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Universalism does not diminish Christ's sacrifice, it upholds it.
How does millions of people living like the devil all their lives being "saved" after death "uphold" Christ's sacrifice?
John 3:15-21
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
(20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
(21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 
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