The KJVO Myth - Phony As A Ford Corvette !

[Radagast]

I hear this word-for-word translation idea constantly being presented as somehow the most accurate.

You are correct. And in fact, nobody does it.

Greek is not Spanish, but I get your point.

Yes, Greek is even more different from English.

FWIW, I think the ESV is the most accurate translation, with the CSB coming second.

 

[Mr. M]

Those who desire to submit to the Will of God will not abide in false doctrines.
John 7:
16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.
18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.

 

[Radagast]

the problem with this approach is that both Hebrew and koine Greek are languages of concepts

That is not actually true.

often several meanings for same word

English is exactly the same in that regard.

So "house" as a noun can mean:

• a place where people live ("My house")
• all the people in the house ("Don't wake the whole house!")
• a place where animals live ("Hen house")
• a public building ("Opera house")
• the people in a theatre ("It played to a packed house")
  
• a business or company ("Publishing house")
• a style of music ("I often listen to house")
• a group of children within a school ("Gryffindor House")
• a royal family ("House of Windsor")
• part of Parliament ("House of Lords")

 

[Mr. M]

That is not actually true.



English is exactly the same in that regard.

So "house" as a noun can mean:

• a place where people live ("My house")
• all the people in the house ("Don't wake the whole house!")
• a place where animals live ("Hen house")
• a public building ("Opera house")
• the people in a theatre ("It played to a packed house")
  
• a business or company ("Publishing house")
• a style of music ("I often listen to house")
• a group of children within a school ("Gryffindor House")
• a royal family ("House of Windsor")
• part of Parliament ("House of Lords")

The house that Babe Ruth built.

 

[Saint Steven]

How about using a Bible Commentary, there are several available online, they are free to use.

That's terrible advice. IMHO
I stopped using commentaries decades ago. I'll look at the original language before I look at a commentary. Always a waste of my time.
If they help you, that's good. But...

 

[Mr. M]

That's terrible advice. IMHO
I stopped using commentaries decades ago. I'll look at the original language before I look at a commentary. Always a waste of my time.
If they help you, that's good. But...

The Holy Spirit Is The Commentary.

 

[Saint Steven]

The Holy Spirit Is The Commentary.

Yes, yes. I agree!
That is my preferred "commentary".

Using other Commentaries is like putting training wheels on your Bible. Fine for beginners, but...

 

[Mr. M]

Using other Commentaries is like putting training wheels on your Bible. Fine for beginners, but...

As we elders do a better job of discipling, there will be no place for commentaries, even for beginners.
Just a comment.

 

[Aussie Pete]

How about using a Bible Commentary, there are several available online, they are free to use.

I find commentaries are inclined to be one of two kinds. One is simplistic and does not help me much. Others are so complicated that they leave me confused.

I owe a lot of my understanding to people like Watchman Nee, JC Ortiz, Ivor Marshall, Merlin Carothers and Andrew Murray. I've found Derek Prince to be helpful also. I've read many other writers. I tend to go back to Watchman Nee these days. More modern teachers include Robert Morris and Joyce Meyer. I don't watch a lot of TV ministry. I teach in our Bible school so my studies tend to be about the content I'm teaching that week.

 

[Redwingfan9]

On a now-closed thread, a gent posted a lot of pro-KJVO material. (KJVO means "King James Version Only", the false doctrine that says the KJV is the only valid English Bible translation out there.)

I, & several others, pointed out FACTS that prove that myth is false, but that gent failed to even ATTEMPT to counter them. Here are some of those facts for your review:

1. There's no Scriptural support for KJVO. And without Scriptural support, no doctrine of faith/worship can be true, as only GOD can make such true doctrines.

2. The current edition of the KJVO myth is drawn from a CULT OFFICIAL'S book, that book being Our Authorized Bible Vindicated (1930) by Dr. Ben Wilkinson, a 7TH DAY ADVENTEST preacher/teacher/official.

3. The KJV is NOT perfect, as KJVOs say it is It both ADDS & SUBTRACTS from God's word.
ADDS: In Rev. 16:5, the KJV ADDS the words "and shalt be", which are NOT found in any ancient Greek manuscript of Revelation !
SUBTRACTS: The KJV OMITS the words "through our Lord Jesus Christ" in Jude 25, which are found in most ancient mss. of the Book of Jude.

4. The KJV has several mistranslations in it. "Easter" in Acts 12:4 is one of them. The Greek word here is 'pascha', which in Luke's time meant only "passover".

Now, I'm not condemning the KJV itself; after all it's the most-printed book in history. But I AM condemning the false KJVO MYTH. The KJV is far from the only valid English Bible translation out there, old or new. The newer translations are in OUR English; they correct many of the KJV's goofs & booboos, and modern translators have over 5K mss. to work from, while the KJV makers only used some 20 mss. Plus, modern translators have computers, etc. to work with, as well as the work of their predecessors, & the tools with which to correspond instantly with other translators anywhere on earth.

And I'm asking you other readers to disregard anything the gent I mentioned in the first paragraph above has posted in favor of KJVO, as he has purposely failed to try to defend the hooey he posted, even after having had it proven to him that it was a LIE. But I DO ask that you PRAY for the Holy Spirit to open his eyes so he can see that he IS believing a lie.

Parliament and the King authorized the KJV, which is why it's called the authorized version. It has nothing to do with a cultist in the 1930's.

I personally use KJV exclusively but that is a personal preference. I prefer the old language, there is a richness there that is lost with the new translations. Additionally, it was translated from documents handed down by the church for centuries. The best argument against the newer versions is that they include fragments discovered in the last 2 centuries as part of their translation. Those fragments have not been handed down by the church, God did not hide his word from his people for nearly 2 thousand years.

 

[Saint Steven]

There is something much larger at play here than disagreements about which English translation is best. I question whether God wanted us to have a Bible at all.

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).

 

[Saint Steven]

The best argument against the newer versions is that they include fragments discovered in the last 2 centuries as part of their translation. Those fragments have not been handed down by the church, God did not hide his word from his people for nearly 2 thousand years.

What?
That's a ridiculous comment.
You would discount the Dead Sea Scrolls because of WHEN they were discovered? Wow. Unbelievable.

Read post #31.

This, of course, is nothing new.

Jeremiah 8:8
“‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

 

[Mr. M]

I question whether God wanted us to have a Bible at all.

Steve,
You know Paul taught from the scriptures. There will always be a place for the written word in ministry. They are the memorials of God. "All scripture is profitable."
Here is where I can agree with you. When Messiah sent His disciples out by 2, He did not give them tracts, pocket Bibles or fliers. They had to rely on the Spirit to give them the words they needed whenever their teaching was challenged. There is a place for mature Christians to step out in that kind of faith and witness.

 

[Redwingfan9]

What?
That's a ridiculous comment.
You would discount the Dead Sea Scrolls because of WHEN they were discovered? Wow. Unbelievable.

Read post #31.

This, of course, is nothing new.

Jeremiah 8:8
“‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

Absolutely I would discount the dead sea scrolls for purposes of translating the word of God. God did not hide his word from Christians for 1900+ years. He gave it to the church, to be passed down from generation to generation. He didn't give us some of his word and hide other parts of it for later generations. While the Dead Sea Scrolls and thousands of fragments found are interesting, they should not be used yo translate scripture.

 

[Saint Steven]

Steve,
You know Paul taught from the scriptures. There will always be a place for the written word in ministry. They are the memorials of God. "All scripture is profitable."
Here is where I can agree with you. When Messiah sent His disciples out by 2, He did not give them tracts, pocket Bibles or fliers. They had to rely on the Spirit to give them the words they needed whenever their teaching was challenged. There is a place for mature Christians to step out in that kind of faith and witness.

I agree.
And don't get me wrong. I love the Bible. I'm just questioning the historic use and abuse. We needed a Bible to codify the record, but in doing so we became dependent on it. In many cases it has become an idol. Nehushtan.

2 Kings 18:4
He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)

 

[Radagast]

I find commentaries are inclined to be one of two kinds. One is simplistic and does not help me much. Others are so complicated that they leave me confused.

Then you're doing it wrong. There's a wide range of commentaries and study Bibles out there; from the very simple, to the very complex, and everything in between.

 

[Saint Steven]

God did not hide his word from Christians for 1900+ years.

So, you put a gag order on God? As if he is not allowed to speak after our man-made canon is complete? This shows the true value of the Bible. It silences God.

 

[Radagast]

I stopped using commentaries decades ago. I'll look at the original language before I look at a commentary.

That's terrible advice, IMHO.

A good commentary will explain things, but also explain the reasons, so you can say "yes, that makes sense."

A good commentary will in fact refer to the original languages too.

 

[lsume]

On a now-closed thread, a gent posted a lot of pro-KJVO material. (KJVO means "King James Version Only", the false doctrine that says the KJV is the only valid English Bible translation out there.)

I, & several others, pointed out FACTS that prove that myth is false, but that gent failed to even ATTEMPT to counter them. Here are some of those facts for your review:

1. There's no Scriptural support for KJVO. And without Scriptural support, no doctrine of faith/worship can be true, as only GOD can make such true doctrines.

2. The current edition of the KJVO myth is drawn from a CULT OFFICIAL'S book, that book being Our Authorized Bible Vindicated (1930) by Dr. Ben Wilkinson, a 7TH DAY ADVENTEST preacher/teacher/official.

3. The KJV is NOT perfect, as KJVOs say it is It both ADDS & SUBTRACTS from God's word.
ADDS: In Rev. 16:5, the KJV ADDS the words "and shalt be", which are NOT found in any ancient Greek manuscript of Revelation !
SUBTRACTS: The KJV OMITS the words "through our Lord Jesus Christ" in Jude 25, which are found in most ancient mss. of the Book of Jude.

4. The KJV has several mistranslations in it. "Easter" in Acts 12:4 is one of them. The Greek word here is 'pascha', which in Luke's time meant only "passover".

Now, I'm not condemning the KJV itself; after all it's the most-printed book in history. But I AM condemning the false KJVO MYTH. The KJV is far from the only valid English Bible translation out there, old or new. The newer translations are in OUR English; they correct many of the KJV's goofs & booboos, and modern translators have over 5K mss. to work from, while the KJV makers only used some 20 mss. Plus, modern translators have computers, etc. to work with, as well as the work of their predecessors, & the tools with which to correspond instantly with other translators anywhere on earth.

And I'm asking you other readers to disregard anything the gent I mentioned in the first paragraph above has posted in favor of KJVO, as he has purposely failed to try to defend the hooey he posted, even after having had it proven to him that it was a LIE. But I DO ask that you PRAY for the Holy Spirit to open his eyes so he can see that he IS believing a lie.

I have personally found that the KJV of The Bible best describes the born again experience. Of course Christ must first open your eyes and ears.

 

[Der Alte]

I've argued with KJVO supporters before, your arguments are going to fall on deaf ears. They actually think that the KJV is an exact word-for-word transcription of history, and Adam and Eve were speaking English in the Garden of Eden. Then the record was lost and God divinely inspired King James to perfectly recreate it.

I must disagree with your statement, "They [KJVO] actually think that... Adam and Eve were speaking English in the Garden of Eden." To be correct it should read "[KJVO] actually think that... Adam and Eve were speaking Elizabethan English in the Garden of Eden."
When I was in the flagship seminary of my denomination in the early 80s in the library was a bookshelf that had most of the 50 state's monthly denominational newspapers. I was reading one from a certain southwestern state, usually associated with yellow roses, a letter to the editor which, I kid you not, said among other things "If the KJV was good enough for Paul and Peter it is good enough for me."