The Kingdom Is Still Divided

[Ligurian]

You're probably not a believer in the Revelation if you're amillennial.
But I hope you won't try replacement theories against the Revelation.
Revelation 7:4-8 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

That's a strange thing to say. Of course I accept the canonical status of the Apocalypse of St. John.
Do you believe the 144,000 refers to a literal 144,000 people literally from those tribes?
Because it makes a lot more sense that the 144,000 is symbolic, and speaks of all the redeemed of all nations. 12 x 12 x 1000 = 144,000. 12 Tribes. 12 Apostles. Just like the New and Heavenly Jerusalem has 12 Foundations and 12 Gates.
This is the Church.
You do understand that St. John's Apocalypse isn't meant to be read literally, right? I mean, there are dragons and chimeric monsters and man-faced locusts in there. Do you think there are four literal horsemen with colored horses?
I recommend doing some homework on apocalyptic as an ancient literary genre before trying to understand the Apocalypse.
-CryptoLutheran

Honestly, at this point I'm just waiting to see how long until the anti-semitism and racism shows up. A lifetime of experiences of discussions like this almost inevitably devolve into some kind of "white people are Israelites just look Denmark looks like the Tribe of Dan if you tilt your head funny and sneeze"
-CryptoLutheran

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Yes, I do. Because it belongs to the Gospel of the Kingdom, given to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel... which is also literal.

Are replacement theories anti-semitism?

Are you mixing the 2 Gospels together?

Revelation 22:19-20 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. [20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

And if you didn't reject most of the New Testament, you'd know what the first resurrection refers to. Hint, try looking at Romans 6:3-4 or Colossians 2:13.
Oh, Jesus was absolutely being literal when He mentioned the lost sheep of Israel. It just doesn't refer to any fake lost tribes. The tribes were never lost. You won't find mention of any lost tribes in the Bible, but you will find mention of them in fables and folklore throughout history.
Probably. But nobody is promoting "replacement theories" so that's irrelevant.
Yep, that's definitely a link to a different thread.
Which I'm sure you think is relevant here, but it's not. As nobody is trying to change, alter, deny, anything which St. John wrote in his Apocalypse.
I believe every jot and tiddle which John wrote on Patmos. I also believe the same with all four Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline epistles, and indeed the entire New Testament. I hear that you don't, would you care to talk about that?
-CryptoLutheran

I don't read other people's mail and respond to it as though it were written to me by the-boss-of-me.
(Galatians 2:7-9)

I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom of David, given by the Father to Jesus for the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel". (Matthew 10:5-7, Revelation 22:16)

To say that you believe every word of Jesus' Revelation, given your alteration/interpretation of Revelation 7 which denies the literal Semites their place... Well, you should stop reading other people's mail.

Judging the First Gospel by the 2nd Gospel doesn't work... and trying to spin them both together, ends up mangling at least one...

 

[Ligurian]

Are you presenting these two maps as your evidence? I'm confused.



Biologically? The egg. Eggs evolved hundreds of millions of years before chickens were around. But what is the reason for your rhetorical statement?



You have to realize by now that unless you provide your commentary on these passages, I can't understand how you understand them or are using them here. When I read these passages, I don't see anything that you seem to be trying to get at. I mean maybe I'm just an idiot, but I still need you to explain your personally held beliefs.

-CryptoLutheran

Since you don't understand my words, I thought I'd try pictures.
Evolution? I'm saying the chicken came first.
Asked... and answered by this:

your own wishful thinking.

 

[Ligurian]

You might want to wish away the 10-Lost-Tribes... but Prophecy itself stands against you.

That's an awfully confident statement for someone who hasn't even made the barest attempt to back it up with anything more than your own wishful thinking.
-CryptoLutheran

Zechariah 11:7-17 And I will tend the flock of slaughter in the land of Chanaan: and I will take for Myself two rods: the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Line, and I will tend the flock.[8] And I will cut off three shepherds in one month: and My soul shall grieve over them, for their souls cried out against Me.[9] And I said, I will not tend you: that which dies, let it die; and that which falls off, let it fall off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of his neighbour.[10] And I will take My beautiful staff, and cast it away, that I may break My Covenant which I made with all the people.[11] And it shall be broken in that day: and the Chananites, the sheep that are kept for Me, shall know that it is the word of the Lord.[12] And I will say to them, If it be good in your eyes, give Me My price, or refuse it. And they weighed for My price thirty pieces of silver.[13] And the Lord said to Me, Drop them into the furnace, and I will see if it is good metal, as I was proved for their sakes. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them into the furnace in the house of the Lord.[14] And I cast away My second rod, even Line, that I might break the possession between Juda and Israel.
[15] And the Lord said to me, Take yet to thee shepherd's implements belonging to an unskillful shepherd.[16] For, behold, I will raise up a shepherd against the land: he shall not visit that which is perishing, and he shall not seek that which is scattered, and he shall not heal that which is bruised, nor guide that which is whole: but he shall devour the flesh of the choice ones, and shall dislocate the joints of their necks.[17] Alas for the vain shepherds that have forsaken the sheep! the sword shall be upon the arms of such a one, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be completely withered, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.(Zacharias, LXX)

 

[bèlla]

@Ligurian what translation are you using for post 43?

 

[Ligurian]

@Ligurian what translation are you using for post 43?

Septuagint, LXX.

 

[bèlla]

Septuagint, LXX.

Thank you.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Zechariah 11:7-17 And I will tend the flock of slaughter in the land of Chanaan: and I will take for Myself two rods: the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Line, and I will tend the flock.[8] And I will cut off three shepherds in one month: and My soul shall grieve over them, for their souls cried out against Me.[9] And I said, I will not tend you: that which dies, let it die; and that which falls off, let it fall off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of his neighbour.[10] And I will take My beautiful staff, and cast it away, that I may break My Covenant which I made with all the people.[11] And it shall be broken in that day: and the Chananites, the sheep that are kept for Me, shall know that it is the word of the Lord.[12] And I will say to them, If it be good in your eyes, give Me My price, or refuse it. And they weighed for My price thirty pieces of silver.[13] And the Lord said to Me, Drop them into the furnace, and I will see if it is good metal, as I was proved for their sakes. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them into the furnace in the house of the Lord.[14] And I cast away My second rod, even Line, that I might break the possession between Juda and Israel.
[15] And the Lord said to me, Take yet to thee shepherd's implements belonging to an unskillful shepherd.[16] For, behold, I will raise up a shepherd against the land: he shall not visit that which is perishing, and he shall not seek that which is scattered, and he shall not heal that which is bruised, nor guide that which is whole: but he shall devour the flesh of the choice ones, and shall dislocate the joints of their necks.[17] Alas for the vain shepherds that have forsaken the sheep! the sword shall be upon the arms of such a one, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be completely withered, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.(Zacharias, LXX)

Now please provide your interpretation of the above. We were talking about the myth of the so-called "10 lost tribes", and it appears to me you are using this as your defense of that position. How though?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ligurian]

You might want to wish away the 10-Lost-Tribes... but Prophecy itself stands against you.

That's an awfully confident statement for someone who hasn't even made the barest attempt to back it up with anything more than your own wishful thinking.
-CryptoLutheran

Zechariah 11:7-17 And I will tend the flock of slaughter in the land of Chanaan: and I will take for Myself two rods: the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Line, and I will tend the flock.[8] And I will cut off three shepherds in one month: and My soul shall grieve over them, for their souls cried out against Me.[9] And I said, I will not tend you: that which dies, let it die; and that which falls off, let it fall off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of his neighbour.[10] And I will take My beautiful staff, and cast it away, that I may break My Covenant which I made with all the people.[11] And it shall be broken in that day: and the Chananites, the sheep that are kept for Me, shall know that it is the word of the Lord.[12] And I will say to them, If it be good in your eyes, give Me My price, or refuse it. And they weighed for My price thirty pieces of silver.[13] And the Lord said to Me, Drop them into the furnace, and I will see if it is good metal, as I was proved for their sakes. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them into the furnace in the house of the Lord.[14] And I cast away My second rod, even Line, that I might break the possession between Juda and Israel.
[15] And the Lord said to me, Take yet to thee shepherd's implements belonging to an unskillful shepherd.[16] For, behold, I will raise up a shepherd against the land: he shall not visit that which is perishing, and he shall not seek that which is scattered, and he shall not heal that which is bruised, nor guide that which is whole: but he shall devour the flesh of the choice ones, and shall dislocate the joints of their necks.[17] Alas for the vain shepherds that have forsaken the sheep! the sword shall be upon the arms of such a one, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be completely withered, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.(Zacharias, LXX)

Now please provide your interpretation of the above. We were talking about the myth of the so-called "10 lost tribes", and it appears to me you are using this as your defense of that position. How though?
-CryptoLutheran

Nope... "we" weren't talking about "myth"and"so-called"...those are your words, not mine.

Do you think these verses are fulfilled?

Zechariah 11:7-17 (quoted above), plus:

Ezekiel 34:1-31 [11] For thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will seek out My sheep, and will visit them.[12] As the shepherd seeks his flock, in the day when there is darkness and cloud, in the midst of the sheep that are separated: so will I seek out My sheep, and will bring them back from every place where they were scattered in the day of cloud and darkness.[13] And I will bring them out from the Gentiles, and will gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land, and will feed them upon the mountains of Israel, and in the valleys, and in every inhabited place of the land.[14] I will feed them in a good pasture, on a high mountain of Israel: and their folds shall be there, and they shall lie down, and there shall they rest in perfect prosperity, and they shall feed in a fat pasture on the mountains of Israel.[15] I will feed My sheep, and I will cause them to rest; and they shall know that I am the Lord: thus saith the Lord God.[16] I will seek that which is lost, and I will recover the stray one, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen the fainting, and will guard the strong, and will feed them with judgment.* [23] And I will raise up one shepherd over them, and he shall tend them, even My servant David,* and He shall be their shepherd;[24] and I the Lord will be to them a God, and David a prince in the midst of them; I the Lord have spoken it.[25] And I will make with David a Covenant of peace and I will utterly destroy evil beasts from off the land; and they shall dwell in the wilderness, and sleep in the forests.[26] ... [30] And they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and they My people. O house of Israel, saith the Lord God,[31] ye are My sheep, even the sheep of My flock, and I am the Lord your God, saith the Lord God.(Jezekial,LXX)
_______________
* Matthew 18:11-13 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.[12] How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?[13] And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.KJV (Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 15:24)

* Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent Mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.KJV (John 10:11)

Jeremiah 50:4-19 In those days, and at that time, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Juda together; they shall proceed, weeping as they go, seeking the Lord their God.[5] They shall ask the way till they come to Sion, for that way shall they set their face; and they shall come and flee for refuge to the Lord their God; for the Everlasting Covenant shall not be forgotten.[6] My people have been lost sheep: their shepherds thrust them out, they caused them to wander on the mountains: they went from mountain to hill, they forgot their resting-place. ... [17] Israel is a wandering sheep; the lions have driven him out: the king of Assyria first devoured him, and afterward this king of Babylon has gnawed his bones.[18] Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will take vengeance on the king of Babylon, and upon his land, as I took vengeance on the king of Assyria.[19] And I will restore Israel to his pasture, and he shall feed on Carmel and on mount Ephraim and in Galaad, and his soul shall be satisfied.(Jeremias 27:4-19,LXX)

Jeremiah 51:41-44 Behold, a people comes from the north, and a great nation, and many kings shall be stirred up from the end of the earth; holding bow and dagger: 42 the people is fierce, and will have no mercy: their voices shall sound as the sea, they shall ride upon horses, prepared for war, like fire, against thee, O daughter of Babylon. 43 The king of Babylon heard the sound of them, and his hands were enfeebled: anguish overcame him, pangs as of a woman in travail. 44 Behold, he shall come up as a lion from Jordan to Gaethan;* for I will speedily drive them from her, and I will set all the youths against her: for who is like Me? and who will resist Me? and who is this shepherd who will stand before Me?(Jeremias 28, LXX)

* wattered pasture, KJV.

Revelation 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.KJV

 

[Ligurian]

Thank you.

welcome

 

[ozso]

Septuagint, LXX.

Which version, Brenton's?