The Kingdom Is Still Divided

[Ligurian]

The only "division" in the kingdom at present is the tragic fact that Christians are not currently united in faith, love, and hope as one Body

This thread is about genetic Jacob and his genetic heirs.

This divided kingdom of Solomon is as easy as knowing which tribes were taken where in their separate captivities... Israel to Assyria, Judah to Babylon. And the breakdown of which of the 12 tribes went where is also a given... since Levi was at the Temple... and 1Kings 12:21 says Benjamin is in the House of Judah.

(verses in KJV)
1 Kings 12:21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.

Jeremiah 3:18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

Jeremiah 5:11 For the house of Israel and the house of Judah have dealt very treacherously against me, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 11:10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear My words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken My covenant which I made with their fathers.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

House of Israel, aka the House of Joseph

Zechariah 10:6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.

Under Jeroboam, Samaria is the House of Israel

Ezekiel 23:4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were Mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names: Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

_____________________________
From the number taken, as given in the Bible and on the scrolls of Assyria, it seems to me that the poor must have been left on the land of the House of Israel after the Assyrian Captivity.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Exactly what it says. The House of Israel is 12 tribes not the 2 everyone seems to think it is. Judah broke away from the country Israel, yet has the gaol to call itself Israel today..

Where do you think most of the inhabitants of the Northern Kingdom went when the Assyrians came in?

The answer is that most of them either stayed, or fled south. Did the Assyrians take captives? Of course they did, they would have taken the wealthy and powerful, not the farmers and sheep herders. That leaves most of the inhabitants of the Northern Kingdom either staying and enduring Assyrian control, or they fled south, to Judah.

So, again, I'll repeat what I said already: Jews are not just from the Kingdom of Judah, it covers all Israelites of all tribes who practice the Jewish religion, and further, a convert to Judaism makes one a Jew (just go back and read the story of Ruth in the Old Testament).

Samaritans are Israelites, but not Jews, because Samaritan religion was distinct from Jewish religion. As such the Samaritans practiced a different form of Israelite religion, one based upon their traditions as members of the northern tribes.

But still, when the Apostles went out, they preached not just in Judea, but also Samaria to Samaritans. That this Jesus thing was for the Samaritans doesn't appear to have been particularly controversial; whereas the mission to the Gentiles was a source of controversy. That there was a restoration of Isarel in Jesus, not controversial--what became controversial was the realization that Israel was no longer about ancestral blood and the former things that were a shadow, but rather fully realized in Jesus the Messiah and that Israel is not just about having Abraham as an ancestral father, but having Abraham as father in the faith. For all who believe in Christ are sons and daughters of Abraham, Jew and Gentile alike, without distinction.

And in this way, we have all become citizens of the commonwealth of Israel. And it has nothing to do with tribe, tongue, nation, ethnicity, race, or blood--but everything to do with Jesus Christ and God's grand plans and purposes in Christ for the world and our salvation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The house of Israel is literally the 10-lost-tribes. But Judah wasn't lost.

No such thing as "10 lost tribes" that's just fiction.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ligurian]

Ezekiel 23:4 ...
From the number taken, as given in the Bible and on the scrolls of Assyria, it seems to me that the poor must have been left on the land of the House of Israel after the Assyrian Captivity.

That leaves most of the inhabitants of the Northern Kingdom either staying and enduring Assyrian control, or they fled south, to Judah.

So... Book, Chapter and Verse, for that "fled south to Judah" theory...

I believe the 10-tribed-House-of-Israel actually moved north... since their capital used to be Samaria... but had moved to Galilee by Jesus' time.

But still, when the Apostles went out, they preached not just in Judea, but also Samaria to Samaritans.

No they didn't.

Matthew 10:1-7 [5] These Twelve Jesus sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the house of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

And since Matthew 28:18-20 says everything Jesus had Commanded them was also to be taught by them...

 

[Ligurian]

No such thing as "10 lost tribes" that's just fiction.

-CryptoLutheran

You're probably not a believer in the Revelation if you're amillennial.
But I hope you won't try replacement theories against the Revelation.

Revelation 7:4-8 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So... Book, Chapter and Verse, for that "fled south to Judah" theory...

2 Chronicles 30:1-18

I believe the 10-tribed-House-of-Israel actually moved north... since their capital used to be Samaria... but had moved to Galilee by Jesus' time.

I'm sure you have something to back up that belief?

No they didn't.

Matthew 10:1-7 [5] These Twelve Jesus sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the house of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

And since Matthew 28:18-20 says everything Jesus had Commanded them was also to be taught by them...

"So when they had come together, they asked him, 'Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?' He said to them, 'It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.'" - Acts of the Apostles 1:6-8

"Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word. Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ. And the crowds with one accord paid attention to what was being said by Philip, when they heard him and saw the signs that he did. For unclean spirits, crying out with a loud voice, came out of many who had them, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. So there was much joy in that city." - Acts of the Apostles 8:4-8

So anyway, you were saying?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

You're probably not a believer in the Revelation if you're amillennial.
But I hope you won't try replacement theories against the Revelation.

Revelation 7:4-8 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

That's a strange thing to say. Of course I accept the canonical status of the Apocalypse of St. John.

Do you believe the 144,000 refers to a literal 144,000 people literally from those tribes?

Because it makes a lot more sense that the 144,000 is symbolic, and speaks of all the redeemed of all nations. 12 x 12 x 1000 = 144,000. 12 Tribes. 12 Apostles. Just like the New and Heavenly Jerusalem has 12 Foundations and 12 Gates.

This is the Church.

You do understand that St. John's Apocalypse isn't meant to be read literally, right? I mean, there are dragons and chimeric monsters and man-faced locusts in there. Do you think there are four literal horsemen with colored horses?

I recommend doing some homework on apocalyptic as an ancient literary genre before trying to understand the Apocalypse.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bling]

The point is there is NO division within God's Kingdom, just perhaps seen due to man's interpretation of what the Kingdom is,

I think there was a division back when we had Jewish and Gentile Christians, not worshipping together.

 

[timothyu]

The house of Israel is literally the 10-lost-tribes. But Judah w;asn't lost.

That is why they were first.

 

[timothyu]

I think there was a division back when we had Jewish and Gentile Christians, not worshipping together.

But that was not God's Kingdom/governance. That was humans living in a communal style of the Way until gentiles went all hierarchy and institution on them creating a kingdom of their own and a religion..

 

[timothyu]

whereas the mission to the Gentiles

Jews have always considered anyone not Jewish (or Levites) as Gentiles.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Jews have always considered anyone not Jewish (or Levites) as Gentiles.

By definition anyone who isn't a Jew is a Gentile. That's just the definition of these things. I'm a Gentile. How do I know I'm a Gentile? Because I'm not Jewish.

Also, Levites are Jews.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Honestly, at this point I'm just waiting to see how long until the anti-semitism and racism shows up. A lifetime of experiences of discussions like this almost inevitably devolve into some kind of "white people are Israelites just look Denmark looks like the Tribe of Dan if you tilt your head funny and sneeze"

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ligurian]

So... Book, Chapter and Verse, for that "fled south to Judah" theory...

2 Chronicles 30:1-18

2 Chronicles 30:10 So the posts went through from city to city in mount Ephraim, and Manasse, and as far as Zabulon: and they as it were laughed them to scorn, and mocked them. 11 But the men of Aser, and some of Manasses and of Zabulon, were ashamed, and came to Jerusalem and Juda.LXX

So... most of them mocked the letter (Ezra wrote 2 Chronicles, right?).
But some of them ..."fled south to Judah"... you made it sound like they were running from the Assyrians.

I believe the 10-tribed-House-of-Israel actually moved north... since their capital used to be Samaria... but had moved to Galilee by Jesus' time.

I'm sure you have something to back up that belief?

Yes, and before Samaria, it was Shechem.

"So when they had come together, they asked him, 'Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?' He said to them, 'It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.'" - Acts of the Apostles 1:6-8

"Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word. Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ. And the crowds with one accord paid attention to what was being said by Philip, when they heard him and saw the signs that he did. For unclean spirits, crying out with a loud voice, came out of many who had them, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. So there was much joy in that city." - Acts of the Apostles 8:4-8

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

______________________
Matthew 10:1-7 [5] These Twelve Jesus sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the house of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 28:16-20 [20] teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[timothyu]

Also, Levites are Jews.

Absorbed. Their priests and laying a claim to Moses who was a Levite from brother Levi of the House of Israel.

 

[Ligurian]

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

You're probably not a believer in the Revelation if you're amillennial.

But I hope you won't try replacement theories against the Revelation.

Revelation 7:4-8 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

That's a strange thing to say. Of course I accept the canonical status of the Apocalypse of St. John.

Do you believe the 144,000 refers to a literal 144,000 people literally from those tribes?

Yes, I do. Because it belongs to the Gospel of the Kingdom, given to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel... which is also literal.

Honestly, at this point I'm just waiting to see how long until the anti-semitism and racism shows up.

Are replacement theories anti-semitism?

Because it makes a lot more sense that the 144,000 is symbolic, and speaks of all the redeemed of all nations. 12 x 12 x 1000 = 144,000. 12 Tribes. 12 Apostles. Just like the New and Heavenly Jerusalem has 12 Foundations and 12 Gates.

This is the Church.

Are you mixing the 2 Gospels together?

You do understand that St. John's Apocalypse isn't meant to be read literally, right? I mean, there are dragons and chimeric monsters and man-faced locusts in there. Do you think there are four literal horsemen with colored horses?

Revelation 22:19-20 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. [20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 

[Ligurian]

By definition anyone who isn't a Jew is a Gentile.

You might want to wish away the 10-Lost-Tribes... but Prophecy itself stands against you.

 

[ViaCrucis]

2 Chronicles 30:10 So the posts went through from city to city in mount Ephraim, and Manasse, and as far as Zabulon: and they as it were laughed them to scorn, and mocked them. 11 But the men of Aser, and some of Manasses and of Zabulon, were ashamed, and came to Jerusalem and Juda.LXX

So... most of them mocked the letter (Ezra wrote 2 Chronicles, right?).
But some of them ..."fled south to Judah"... you made it sound like they were running from the Assyrians.





Yes, and before Samaria, it was Shechem.

Are you presenting these two maps as your evidence? I'm confused.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Biologically? The egg. Eggs evolved hundreds of millions of years before chickens were around. But what is the reason for your rhetorical statement?

______________________
Matthew 10:1-7 [5] These Twelve Jesus sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the house of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 28:16-20 [20] teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You have to realize by now that unless you provide your commentary on these passages, I can't understand how you understand them or are using them here. When I read these passages, I don't see anything that you seem to be trying to get at. I mean maybe I'm just an idiot, but I still need you to explain your personally held beliefs.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

You might want to wish away the 10-Lost-Tribes... but Prophecy itself stands against you.

That's an awfully confident statement for someone who hasn't even made the barest attempt to back it up with anything more than your own wishful thinking.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

And if you didn't reject most of the New Testament, you'd know what the first resurrection refers to. Hint, try looking at Romans 6:3-4 or Colossians 2:13.

Yes, I do. Because it belongs to the Gospel of the Kingdom, given to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel... which is also literal.

Oh, Jesus was absolutely being literal when He mentioned the lost sheep of Israel. It just doesn't refer to any fake lost tribes. The tribes were never lost. You won't find mention of any lost tribes in the Bible, but you will find mention of them in fables and folklore throughout history.

Are replacement theories anti-semitism?

Probably. But nobody is promoting "replacement theories" so that's irrelevant.

Are you mixing the 2 Gospels together?

Yep, that's definitely a link to a different thread.

Revelation 22:19-20 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. [20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Which I'm sure you think is relevant here, but it's not. As nobody is trying to change, alter, deny, anything which St. John wrote in his Apocalypse.

I believe every jot and tiddle which John wrote on Patmos. I also believe the same with all four Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline epistles, and indeed the entire New Testament. I hear that you don't, would you care to talk about that?

-CryptoLutheran