• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • Christian Forums is looking to bring on new moderators to the CF Staff Team! If you have been an active member of CF for at least three months with 200 posts during that time, you're eligible to apply! This is a great way to give back to CF and keep the forums running smoothly! If you're interested, you can submit your application here!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tellyontellyon

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2020
830
253
53
Wales
✟134,888.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Big "people hate me because I tell it how it is" energy. Your religion looks like a vain attempt to be "spiritual, not religious" with a hint of orientalism, but it's insulting to tell you that your religion is a sham and probably not actual Buddhism, so in the interest of civil conversation, most people won't point that out.

Your stated basis of morality is "if I cut my hand it hurts, I don't like it."

Exercise, work, and study are also unpleasant in the moment, but they aren't immoral or even actually bad. Similarly, justice is unpleasant to a criminal, but that doesn't mean it's immoral. Seriously, this is like the first naive ethical system dismissed in an ethics 101 class.
Dont be obtuse... Morality and the basis for that morality are two different things. But a functioning morality can be worked out from the basis of not harming others... obviously when we take into account all the interactions and interconnections that can get very complex and nuanced.
 
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
8,639
3,066
Pennsylvania, USA
✟911,013.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
And then there is the Lord in Jn 3:18.
Yes and He told me not to judge but have the same hope for others I should have for myself ( Matthew 7:1-12) & that those who have done good will be saved vs those who did evil will not be saved ( John 5:22-30). John 3:16-21 also says those who do what is truthful will come to the light. I believe God will be merciful in many ways I have no way of knowing but I leave it up to Him.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Tellyontellyon

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2020
830
253
53
Wales
✟134,888.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
You don't need to be a Christian to follow the logic. If God is not simply another resident within reality, like us and angels and other gods, he is only 'a god', and not the Self-Existent Creator.
I don't believe in God as a self existent creature.
 
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
8,639
3,066
Pennsylvania, USA
✟911,013.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I don't believe in God as a self existent creature.
If you don’t have a fear of everlasting condemnation when we die, you will not be able to grasp the Gospel and how God does love us ( John 3:16-21). That God became incarnate ( John 1:1-18) and that the Lord Jesus Christ explains God revealed to us in John chapters 14,15, & 16 and that when we have our moments of existing as He wants us to we reflect it according to the Persons of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit ( John 14:15-18).
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
28,048
7,211
North Carolina
✟330,217.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yes and He told me not to judge but have the same hope for others I should have for myself ( Matthew 7:1-12)
Are you in rejection of Christ?

He told us there is no hope for those in rejection of Christ (Jn 3:18).
They must come out of that rejection and into faith in him to have any kind of hope.

What is so hard for you regarding Jesus and no hope without faith in him (Jn 3:18)?
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,250
6,342
69
Pennsylvania
✟926,525.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
I don't believe in God as a self existent creature.
Then your discussions of Christianity, arguing a mere god —a superhuman— are useless. Christianity's God is omnipotent, self-existent. and not a creature. First Causer of all other fact/ events/ causes. Not a mere resident within a larger reality.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,250
6,342
69
Pennsylvania
✟926,525.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Jesus himself declared he is the ONLY way to heaven. The ramifications of that are profound, and Christians should big-up and stand by what their religion declares.
FWIW, most of the churches, if not the members, do so. But Christendom is a long way from actual Christianity.
 
Upvote 0

jas3

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2023
1,090
797
The South
✟77,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Dont be obtuse... Morality and the basis for that morality are two different things.
Then it falls to you to flesh that out and explain how exactly you think there is a moral failure in the concept of hell, and how exactly people might be innocent and undeserving of eternal separation from God. It's not enough to give a vague, easily-debunked standard and then when called out on it gesture to more vague "nuance" that you can't or won't supply. "It's obvious" isn't an explanation.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,213
28,619
Pacific Northwest
✟793,122.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Some terrible things have happened to the Jews over the centuries... Ones in living memory include the Holocaust during WW2 and the attacks last year. I remember learning about Anne Francs diaries when I was is school. Awful times.

But according to Christianity, most of those tortured and murdered Jews are roasting in hell as they don't have the necessary faith in Christ's sacrifice..

Isn't this simply unfair and unjust? Is this the best God could come up with?

According to some interpretations of Christianity.

Many Christians recognize that there is a dimension of simply not knowing many things.

We know the means God uses to save us. Which is why we can say all who trust in Christ are being saved.
We know that God is on the side of saving sinners, that is God's default disposition--to save us.
We also know that the path to hell is through personal choice. God isn't the One who damns us, we damn ourselves.

God's will is to save us.
Our will is to damn ourselves.

How every single piece falls on the table, ultimately, is unknowable to anyone except God.

Which is why, yes, "Outside the Church there is no salvation" as St. Cyprian famously said; and at the same time, that does not mean that everyone outside the Church will be, in the end, damned, as St. Augustine also said, "There are sheep outside and there are wolves within". Merely identifying as a Christian will not guarantee one salvation; neither does merely not being a Christian guarantee eternal damnation.

Indeed, most Christians recognize, as a clear example, the question of unbaptized infants. Do infants who die in childbirth, or in miscarriage, or before receiving baptism after birth go to hell? You will virtually find not a single Christian that would say yes.

It's simply the truth that we can't claim perfect knowledge of every individual, and every circumstance. And that, in the end, we have to trust that God is good, just, compassionate, and merciful. He sends His rain on both the just and the unjust alike.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
28,048
7,211
North Carolina
✟330,217.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Some terrible things have happened to the Jews over the centuries... Ones in living memory include the Holocaust during WW2 and the attacks last year. I remember learning about Anne Francs diaries when I was is school. Awful times.
But according to Christianity, most of those tortured and murdered Jews are roasting in hell as they don't have the necessary faith in Christ's sacrifice..
Isn't this simply unfair and unjust?
It is absolutely perfect justice.

God owes his enemies (all mankind, Ro 5:10) nothing. He cannot be faulted for his justice regarding them, for they have no claim on him.
That he spares some is his just prerogative.
Is this the best God could come up with?
Yep. . .it is what justice requires in order to be just.

Nor are they being subjected to anything more than everyone else who rejects Christ will be subjected to.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
28,048
7,211
North Carolina
✟330,217.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
To kill God is pretty much the epitome of evil-the ultimate display of man choosing darkness over light, a demonstration of where the heart of fallen man really lies.
Jesus came to die as a ransom/sacrifice (Mt 20:28).

Had he not, he would have failed.

It was his own people who had him killed.
And yet, even in that act, Jesus forgave.
He forgave those who were just doing their job, who had no skin in the game.
He did not forgive the Jews who had him killed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,628
4,667
Hudson
✟328,502.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Some terrible things have happened to the Jews over the centuries... Ones in living memory include the Holocaust during WW2 and the attacks last year. I remember learning about Anne Francs diaries when I was is school. Awful times.

But according to Christianity, most of those tortured and murdered Jews are roasting in hell as they don't have the necessary faith in Christ's sacrifice..

Isn't this simply unfair and unjust? Is this the best God could come up with?
In Hebrews 11, it gives examples of people from the OT who had saving faith even though they had never read the NT, so reading the NT is not required for salvation. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, so there is no reason to doubt the salvation of anyone who is doers of the greatest two commandments.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
14,250
6,342
69
Pennsylvania
✟926,525.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Quote from post 51:


“Had he not, he would have failed.”



How can God fail?
Her subjunctive mode does not imply that he could have failed. @Eleanor does not believe that he could have failed. In fact, I expect, she believes as I do, that the whole notion is silly; she only wrote it that way to make an obvious point —that it was his intention from the beginning, to be killed, a fact to which scripture directly attests.
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
12,906
4,556
Eretz
✟367,630.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
(As a side note, I lean toward "Annihilationism" rather than the most oft cited interpretation of the "Lake of Fire." But I'm not allowed to say more than that here.)
The chaff will be burned...Matthew 3:12
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
28,048
7,211
North Carolina
✟330,217.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
  • Like
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.