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The Jews in Jesus time

ralliann

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Tampa and I arent agreeing with the Pharisees. We're just explaining how they came to be and where some of their opposition to Christ came from.
Diminishing who he was and what his works were.
Ignoring the very same issues with one they rejected to prepare the way for Christ. John the baptist as well as his disciples= Many of his apostles. Scripture plainly tells you they loved to be seen of men, Loved high honor in their gatherings and on the street. John told you why they rejected him as well.
AND as Jesus already told the apostles they would reject them as well And they did. Despite such wonders as even Peters shadow crossing over a person was healed.
 
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tampasteve

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Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.


Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

His work was in no way to be diminished as common, as "practice" of Rabbinic Judaism IMO. A prophet like Moses...You must listen to him.
I am not really sure what you are getting at here. God chooses to heal when he chooses to heal. There are documented healings among pagans and heathens, and among Jews. God is doing the healing, not the person.

But let us not forget that other Prophets that came before did wonders and works too.

Abraham healed a man:
Gen 20:17-18
‘Then Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech, his wife and his slave girls so they could have children again, for the Lord had closed up every womb in Abimelech's household because of Abraham's wife Sarah.’
Elisha raised a child from the dead (after healing the mother that had been barren):
2 Kings 4:34 Then he went up and lay on the child, putting his mouth on his mouth, his eyes on his eyes, and his hands on his hands. And as he stretched himself upon him, the flesh of the child became warm.

There are more examples of course from both the Old and New Testament.

Christ did things no other man did, I am not even arguing against that for a second. The difference is that Christ healed by his own authority, not as a vessel for God as everyone else does or did.
Diminishing who he was and what his works were.
Ignoring the very same issues with one they rejected to prepare the way for Christ. John the baptist as well as his disciples= Many of his apostles. Scripture plainly tells you they loved to be seen of men, Loved high honor in their gatherings and on the street. John told you why they rejected him as well.
AND as Jesus already told the apostles they would reject them as well And they did. Despite such wonders as even Peters shadow crossing over a person was healed.
We by no means are diminishing what he did or what his works were. But to deny that it has happened before or through other people is just ignoring scripture and history. It does not deny, diminish, or otherwise disparage the power and majesty of Jesus.
 
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ralliann

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I am not really sure what you are getting at here. God chooses to heal when he chooses to heal. There are documented healings among pagans and heathens, and among Jews. God is doing the healing, not the person.

But let us not forget that other Prophets that came before did wonders and works too.

Abraham healed a man:
Gen 20:17-18
‘Then Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech, his wife and his slave girls so they could have children again, for the Lord had closed up every womb in Abimelech's household because of Abraham's wife Sarah.’
Elisha raised a child from the dead (after healing the mother that had been barren):
2 Kings 4:34 Then he went up and lay on the child, putting his mouth on his mouth, his eyes on his eyes, and his hands on his hands. And as he stretched himself upon him, the flesh of the child became warm.

There are more examples of course from both the Old and New Testament.

Christ did things no other man did, I am not even arguing against that for a second. The difference is that Christ healed by his own authority, not as a vessel for God as everyone else does or did.

We by no means are diminishing what he did or what his works were. But to deny that it has happened before or through other people is just ignoring scripture and history. It does not deny, diminish, or otherwise disparage the power and majesty of Jesus.
Why even bring it up? Scripture plainly tells you why they rejected Jesus and his works. Abraham, Moses, Elijah. these were men to be marked and John came in the spirit of elijah, Christ a prophet like Moses. So why even focus about Works of all kinds of people?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Why do you think not all the Jews accepted our lord as the messiah? Was it because he didn’t observe the sabbath or did he speak against Moses and things the Jews believed in?

There are a lot of reasons, one of the big ones is that Jesus didn't exactly fit the messianic expectations of the time. People were looking for--and wanting--a great warrior messiah that would drive out the foreign occupiers (the Romans), reclaim the crown of Israel as the son of David, and unite all the Jewish people from all the tribes of Israel scattered throughout the world and bring them all together to Israel.

In the 1st century there were several self-claimed messiahs. In fact when our Lord was still a child a man by the name of Judas, also from Galilee, rose up and led a Jewish uprising against the Roman occupation--and he was proclaimed the messiah. The uprising failed, Judas and his followers were killed. Another messianic uprising happened yet again later on, under Theudas, several decades later. Both men and there movements are mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles, as well as other historical sources.

In the Gospel accounts themselves, we frequently see that people, and Jesus' own followers, are consistently wondering when Jesus is going to announce Himself the Messiah and take back Israel away from the Romans. No doubt, on that Palm Sunday, when the Lord came into Jerusalem riding on a donkey, and the crowds laid down palm leaves and sang "Hosanna to the Son of David!" many thought this was it, this is when Jesus is finally going to make His strike against Rome.

So when Jesus was arrested, betrayed by the kiss of a close friend, and then condemned by both Sanhedrin and then made to suffer under Pontius Pilate, who put Him to death by crucifixion--the result was a startling shocking horror to Jesus' followers. As Jesus said, strike the Shepherd and the sheep scatter--we are told only the women, including the Lord's mother, as well as one male disciple (usually believed to be John).

So think about this from the perspective of Jews living in the first century: Someone going around teaching, supposedly performing miracles, with people whispering rumors about "the Messiah" somewhere out there in the Judean desert was not uncommon. A single generation of Jewish people experienced a number of messianic movements and messianic claimants.

If you're a first century Jewish person and you hear about yet another self-proclaimed messiah being put to death by Pontius Pilate, well that's just par for the course. And people going around saying this Jesus, though crucified, was raised on the third day? Well that sounded just as crazy two thousand years ago as it does today. People don't just stop being dead. For first century Jews a crucified messiah is no messiah at all.

It's why St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1 that the Cross is a "stumbling block" for the Jews, and "foolishness" for the Greeks. Jews want signs, Greeks want wisdom; but God chose the weak and foolish things in order to confound the strong and the wise.

To confess that the Jesus who died, rose again, and is the Lord and King Messiah, and indeed the very Son of God--well that's not something people can arrive at by reason, or signs, or proofs. But only by faith.

Faith which comes, Paul says in Romans 10:17, by the hearing of the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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tampasteve

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Why even bring it up? Scripture plainly tells you why they rejected Jesus and his works. Abraham, Moses, Elijah. these were men to be marked and John came in the spirit of elijah, Christ a prophet like Moses. So why even focus about Works of all kinds of people?
With all due respect, you seem to be the one focused on works and healings. To be honest, the miracles of Christ are not what should be convincing us. The miracles, while incredible, are not the only, or even main prophesies, that prove Christ is the Messiah.

A question was asked and we provided a few opinions/answers.
 
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ralliann

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With all due respect, you seem to be the one focused on works and healings.
Correction... Jesus works and healings as well as the pwer given his apostles to TESTIFY OF THE SAME. Them also given works as a testimony of God to the people.
To be honest, the miracles of Christ are not what should be convincing us. The miracles, while incredible, are not the only, or even main prophesies, that prove Christ is the Messiah.
They were what proved him to be the prophet like MOSES, to whom the law commanded "you MUST LISTEN TO HIM". Instead in their straining of a gnat over marks of Messiah, or even Elijah they swallowed a camel. Their eyes were closed and ears couldn't hear to listen.
A question was asked and we provided a few opinions/answers.
Yes, and the answer often given in this site is OH, he was a wiser rabbi (Pharisee) in the law and they didn't appreciate that.
Lest I be accused of Antisemitism here it was a generation of the rabbis which also ruled in the Sanhedrin, and probably only some of those we are talking about here. But Rabbinics is still among them today due to their power under Roman law unto Judaism and Jew's.
 
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tampasteve

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Correction... Jesus works and healings as well as the pwer given his apostles to TESTIFY OF THE SAME. Them also given works as a testimony of God to the people.
There is nothing to correct, both statements can exist together. The miracles give testimony of and to God for us to see, but they are not the Gospel, the miracles don't save us -that is the work of the Gospel. The miracles are signs that point to Messiah. That is what I was getting at.
They were what proved him to be the prophet like MOSES, to whom the law commanded "you MUST LISTEN TO HIM". Instead in their straining of a gnat over marks of Messiah, or even Elijah they swallowed a camel. Their eyes were closed and ears couldn't hear to listen.
I agree.
Yes, and the answer often given in this site is OH, he was a wiser rabbi (Pharisee) in the law and they didn't appreciate that.
I feel you are accusing me of making a statement like that. I most certainly did not, and I don't see that in this thread really at all. You are reading into statements for something that is not there, at least in this thread.

But, FWIW, Jesus was a Rabbi - teacher, a wiser rabbi than the rest. The Greatest Teacher of All.

I could be wrong - I often am - but if you look back through my posts I hope that you can see I have attempted to answer the initial question, and your following ones, in a measured manner using scripture, history, and our my lived experience. I have tried not to offend or write without thought.

I am not sure what I have said that seems to be rubbing you wrong - but I apologize if I triggered you in some manner. That was not my intention at all. I am simply answering to the best of my abilities using the tools available.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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I am not sure what I have said that seems to be rubbing you wrong - but I apologize if I triggered you in some manner. That was not my intention at all. I am simply answering to the best of my abilities using the tools available.

Exactly, TS and I have been explaining the historical context of how Jesus and the Pharisees butted heads. Very few Christians that I know are aware of how the Jewish religious components came about prior to Jesus's timeframe and interacted with each other. It becomes easy to misconstrue NT texts without some kind of historical context.
 
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ralliann

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There is nothing to correct, both statements can exist together. The miracles give testimony of and to God for us to see, but they are not the Gospel, the miracles don't save us -that is the work of the Gospel. The miracles are signs that point to Messiah. That is what I was getting at.

I agree.

I feel you are accusing me of making a statement like that. I most certainly did not, and I don't see that in this thread really at all. You are reading into statements for something that is not there, at least in this thread.

But, FWIW, Jesus was a Rabbi - teacher, a wiser rabbi than the rest. The Greatest Teacher of All.

I could be wrong - I often am - but if you look back through my posts I hope that you can see I have attempted to answer the initial question, and your following ones, in a measured manner using scripture, history, and our my lived experience. I have tried not to offend or write without thought.

I am not sure what I have said that seems to be rubbing you wrong - but I apologize if I triggered you in some manner. That was not my intention at all. I am simply answering to the best of my abilities using the tools available.
Exactly, TS and I have been explaining the historical context of how Jesus and the Pharisees butted heads. Very few Christians that I know are aware of how the Jewish religious components came about prior to Jesus's timeframe and interacted with each other. It becomes easy to misconstrue NT texts without some kind of historical context.
Even fewer are aware of the relocation of the Sanhdrin at Yavneh (Jamnia, to the Romans) by the authority of the Roman emperor Vespasian. Allowing them to usurp the Authority of the priesthood, and establish rabbinic Judaism. Prayer replaced sacrifices and and rituals "transferred" to the synagogue for the liturgy, and to be called a temple, a diminished one but one none the less. So those which complain about Constantine making up the Catholic Church, it was Vespasian that helped to establish Rabbinic, synagouge Judaism. Which what was tradtion became oral law. As with this new Sanhedrin in Rome it was law of Judaism.
 
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tampasteve

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Even fewer are aware of the relocation of the Sanhdrin at Yavneh (Jamnia, to the Romans) by the authority of the Roman emperor Vespasian...[snip]
I think going down this discussion will take the thread too far off course, as such I am not going to respond. Feel encouraged to start a thread on it if you would like to hear thoughts on that subject.
 
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ralliann

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I think going down this discussion will take the thread too far off course, as such I am not going to respond. Feel encouraged to start a thread on it if you would like to hear thoughts on that subject.
Thanks.
 
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ralliann

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There is nothing to correct, both statements can exist together. The miracles give testimony of and to God for us to see, but they are not the Gospel, the miracles don't save us -that is the work of the Gospel. The miracles are signs that point to Messiah. That is what I was getting at.

I agree.

I feel you are accusing me of making a statement like that. I most certainly did not, and I don't see that in this thread really at all. You are reading into statements for something that is not there, at least in this thread.

But, FWIW, Jesus was a Rabbi - teacher, a wiser rabbi than the rest. The Greatest Teacher of All.

I could be wrong - I often am - but if you look back through my posts I hope that you can see I have attempted to answer the initial question, and your following ones, in a measured manner using scripture, history, and our my lived experience. I have tried not to offend or write without thought.

I am not sure what I have said that seems to be rubbing you wrong - but I apologize if I triggered you in some manner. That was not my intention at all. I am simply answering to the best of my abilities using the tools available.
I apologize as well for sounding accusatory. I am sorry Tampa Steve. I just went back through your posts and assumed things I should not have.
 
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tampasteve

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I apologize as well for sounding accusatory. I am sorry Tampa Steve. I just went back through your posts and assumed things I should not have.
Thanks, no worries :)
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Even fewer are aware of the relocation of the Sanhdrin at Yavneh (Jamnia, to the Romans) by the authority of the Roman emperor Vespasian. Allowing them to usurp the Authority of the priesthood, and establish rabbinic Judaism. Prayer replaced sacrifices and and rituals "transferred" to the synagogue for the liturgy, and to be called a temple, a diminished one but one none the less. So those which complain about Constantine making up the Catholic Church, it was Vespasian that helped to establish Rabbinic, synagouge Judaism. Which what was tradtion became oral law. As with this new Sanhedrin in Rome it was law of Judaism.

Well once the Temple was destroyed certain things could not happen any longer. But synagogues were nothing new, most towns had them.
 
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SkyWriting

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Why do you think not all the Jews accepted our lord as the messiah? Was it because he didn’t observe the sabbath or did he speak against Moses and things the Jews believed in?
That last thing the Jews were seeking was a servant as a leader. They wanted the respect they felt they deserved.
 
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ralliann

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Well once the Temple was destroyed certain things could not happen any longer. But synagogues were nothing new, most towns had them.
What was new was the function of the synagogue, and the authority structure and role of the Rabbis that the synagogue took on.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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What was new was the function of the synagogue, and the authority structure and role of the Rabbis that the synagogue took on.

Synagogues really came about because of the destruction of the 1st Temple in 586 BC but could have dated back to the time of Moses. They were meant as a temporary replacement for the Temple. They became centers of Jewish communities. The council at Yavneh also codified scripture.
 
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Torah Keeper

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Exactly, they were trying to live the Torah outside of Temple worship and had their origins in the Babylonian exile. How do we Jews live a godly life when we don't have access to the Temple or live outside of Israel? For example, the Sabbath is a day of rest and no work is to be done. Okay, how far can I walk on the Sabbath before it becomes "work"? If I am carrying wood for a fire? What if I am carrying my baby instead?

I've served as a shabbos goy for Jewish friends to drive them to the synagogue or relight a pilot light in the winter. So I do get their desire to live within the Jewish framework.

We make light of them today but even we Christians have supported blue-laws for Sunday. Chik-fil-a is closed on Sunday as a day of rest and family. Heck just look at the Sabbath and the Law section on CF.

Shabbos goy...That's a whole other messy subject that I don't agree with. Better not derail the thread about it, but I just wanted to say I think Jews that have Shabbos goyim are hypocritical.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Shabbos goy...That's a whole other messy subject that I don't agree with. Better not derail the thread about it, but I just wanted to say I think Jews that have Shabbos goyim are hypocritical.

Well it was not a permanent arrangement just a pickle they were in at times. I even once noticed the eruv wire taken down by a storm and called the Chabad center to let the rabbi know. He was pretty surprised I knew what it meant :)
 
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ralliann

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Synagogues really came about because of the destruction of the 1st Temple in 586 BC but could have dated back to the time of Moses. They were meant as a temporary replacement for the Temple. They became centers of Jewish communities. The council at Yavneh also codified scripture.
I do not agree they were either from the time of Moses, nor at anytime before the temple was destroyed they were a replacement for the temple. They were all traveling with the tabernacle together. I believe once they took the land they developed as courts of justice, but not a "replacement" for the temple. Read Joshua concerning the 2 1/2 tribes even suspected of doing that. They were going to slaughter them for it. The idea of synagogues being called temple did not sit well with some Jews early on, so it was something new. However, I do think they were more than likely the lower court system within the country spread among the tribes to settle their disputes (places of adjudication). Any matters "to difficult" (like our supreme court) were to be taken to "the place the Lord had chose" (see deut 17) to the high priest and the judge to adjudicate. As judges of course like judges today they had to be learned in the law. I also believe what Jesus called traditions, became law at that time. It is just kind of obvious since it was the Pharisees that took control over law for jews in the Empire. The seat of Moses was not without the authority of the high priest as chief Justice of that court. Nor were their lower courts without Levites.
De 21:5 "And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried."
But every tribe was told to choose men from their tribes for judges, but the difficult cases only to Moses.
Ex 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.
25 And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.
26 And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves.

They had to have courts set up.
 
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