The Jews in Jesus time

[Lenno]

Why do you think not all the Jews accepted our lord as the messiah? Was it because he didn’t observe the sabbath or did he speak against Moses and things the Jews believed in?

 

[Torah Keeper]

Why do you think not all the Jews accepted our lord as the messiah? Was it because he didn’t observe the sabbath or did he speak against Moses and things the Jews believed in?

Because some Jews were corrupt. And Yeshua did observe the Sabbath. Yeshua never spake against Moses, only against vain traditions that made the Law of God of no effect and placed unfair burdens on people.

Yeshua explained the Law more clearly. It has gotten distorted and twisted by corrupt politicians and Jewish leaders. Yeshua set them straight.

 

[tampasteve]

Primarily because he was not like the Messiah they were looking for. They were looking for a Earthly king that would expel the Romans and bring back the Earthly Davidic Kingdom. Also because he did not fulfil all the prophesies at that time (and still has not), there was a minority idea of two comings or two Messiah (the suffering and the conquering), but it was not the majority view (and still is not among Rabbinic Jews).

Further, there were other Messianic claimants around that time just before and after that fulfilled some of the prophesies as well, but most were also military leaders. There really is not just one reason, but rather many small reasons that add up.

Actually many did believe, the first Christians were Jews or God-fearing gentiles almost exclusively. Followers of Yeshua/Jesus and non-followers shared synagogues through the 200s and in some places up to the 400s, and they both also went to the Temple until it was destroyed. For the first few centuries The Way was more of a stream in Judaism than something outside of it.

 

[Lenno]

Because some Jews were corrupt. And Yeshua did observe the Sabbath. Yeshua never spake against Moses, only against vain traditions that made the Law of God of no effect and placed unfair burdens on people.

Yeshua explained the Law more clearly. It has gotten distorted and twisted by corrupt politicians and Jewish leaders. Yeshua set them straight.

Ah right. I think Jesus did heal a blind man on the sabbath though. But yes the Jewish faith had become corrupt somewhat that makes sense I get that. Thanks for explaining about Moses and the laws also

 

[Torah Keeper]

Ah right. I think Jesus did heal a blind man on the sabbath though. But yes the Jewish faith had become corrupt somewhat that makes sense I get that. Thanks for explaining about Moses and the laws also

Yeshua spoke and people were healed. And for that, they accused Him of breaking the Sabbath?! What? Clearly they were trying to dig up dirt on Him but found nothing.

And healing is not prohibited on Shabbat. Yeshua even rebuked them because they will lift an ox out of a pit on Shabbat (talk about a heavy burden!), but they refuse for someone to be healed?

 

[Lenno]

Yeshua spoke and people were healed. And for that, they accused Him of breaking the Sabbath?! What? Clearly they were trying to dig up dirt on Him but found nothing.

And healing is not prohibited on Shabbat. Yeshua even rebuked them because they will lift an ox out of a pit on Shabbat (talk about a heavy burden!), but they refuse for someone to be healed?

Ah ok Thankyou for the clarification

 

[tampasteve]

Ironically later on the Rabbis decided that it was OK to heal on the sabbath, even going as far as saying it is OK to spread a salve on the eyes of another. There is a whole line of reasoning that lead to that conclusion, but it is ironic that it was one of the things they "trapped" Jesus with.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

It's complex. Jesus in one Gospel "teaches of his own authority". In other words, he was not following one of the recognized rabbis such as Hillel or Shammai. We do see a handful of Pharisees that do follow him such as Nicodemus. As TampaSteve said, there were various factions who wanted a king, a la David, to overthrow not only Roman rule but the Hasmodeans as well. So when Jesus rides into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, everyone is now on guard.

 

[ralliann]

Ah ok Thankyou for the clarification

The generation of rulers in the Sanhedrin were Jealous of him. They First had rejected the prophet John and his baptism of repentance. Somewhat similar to Pharoah, the more Jesus proved he was sent from God, the more perverse and crooked they became. The people accepted John as a prophet, to the point they feared to publically accuse and reject him. So, they became terribly unjust judges, and even bribed people for false testimony. they would not tolerate any having sway over the people other than themselves.
The wrath that John preached was coming, and the apostles were in a race to save sas many as they could from it.
Ac 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

 

[Trusting in Him]

They already knew that the messiah would heal the blind, but they were stupid enough to decide that this was not acceptable, because it was done on the sabbath. How crazy is that!

 

[tampasteve]

They already knew that the messiah would heal the blind, but they were stupid enough to decide that this was not acceptable, because it was done on the sabbath. How crazy is that!

It's not really crazy. When the religion is predicated on you following The Law to please God, you are going to try and ensure that you do not do anything to break the Law, if possible. The leaders and Rabbi's have "built fences around the Law" to ensure that the Law is not broken. The difference is that Jesus had authority over the Law as he was/is God.

So, as healing can be considered a profession it was also considered work. Now, again, over time the rabbi's have decided that it is better to heal someone as it can be considered saving a life (which was always allowed on the Sabbath).

 

[ralliann]

It's not really crazy. When the religion is predicated on you following The Law to please God, you are going to try and ensure that you do not do anything to break the Law, if possible. The leaders and Rabbi's have "built fences around the Law" to ensure that the Law is not broken. The difference is that Jesus had authority over the Law as he was/is God.

So, as healing can be considered a profession it was also considered work. Now, again, over time the rabbi's have decided that it is better to heal someone as it can be considered saving a life (which was always allowed on the Sabbath).

How common was it to make the blind see? To make the lame walk? the dumb speak? Are these conditions which are fatal or life threatening to need healing immediately?
Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 

[tampasteve]

How common was it to make the blind see? To make the lame walk? the dumb speak? Are these conditions which are fatal?

They are not fatal in the idea that you could die the same day, but they could be thought of as fatal. The reason the eye salve rule was changed is that it is thought that the eye, if left un-treated, could become a fatal infection. Had a treatment been applied on the Sabbath the fatality could be avoided. The same reasoning can be applied to many ailments.

Healing people? Well, there are other stories of other people doing that near the time of Jesus. Interestingly he was not the only "Galilean Holy Man" in the era. There is also credible(ish) tales of other Holy Men doing things like making it rain (see Honi HaMe'agel "Honi the circle drawer").

But the point is that Jesus had the authority to interpret and determine the Law. His authority did not derive from the leaders or established schools of the time. He claimed (accurately from our point of view) that his authority came from God, and that did not sit well with them. He did not interpret it the same way that they did (at that time), and that put him at odds with the leaders. Some did agree with him, but as he was outside of the establishment he was dismissed by them and they were jealous of his position.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

It's not really crazy. When the religion is predicated on you following The Law to please God, you are going to try and ensure that you do not do anything to break the Law, if possible. The leaders and Rabbi's have "built fences around the Law" to ensure that the Law is not broken. The difference is that Jesus had authority over the Law as he was/is God.

So, as healing can be considered a profession it was also considered work. Now, again, over time the rabbi's have decided that it is better to heal someone as it can be considered saving a life (which was always allowed on the Sabbath).

Exactly, they were trying to live the Torah outside of Temple worship and had their origins in the Babylonian exile. How do we Jews live a godly life when we don't have access to the Temple or live outside of Israel? For example, the Sabbath is a day of rest and no work is to be done. Okay, how far can I walk on the Sabbath before it becomes "work"? If I am carrying wood for a fire? What if I am carrying my baby instead?

I've served as a shabbos goy for Jewish friends to drive them to the synagogue or relight a pilot light in the winter. So I do get their desire to live within the Jewish framework.

We make light of them today but even we Christians have supported blue-laws for Sunday. Chik-fil-a is closed on Sunday as a day of rest and family. Heck just look at the Sabbath and the Law section on CF.

 

[ralliann]

They already knew that the messiah would heal the blind, but they were stupid enough to decide that this was not acceptable, because it was done on the sabbath. How crazy is that!

They are not fatal in the idea that you could die the same day, but they could be thought of as fatal. The reason the eye salve rule was changed is that it is thought that the eye, if left un-treated, could become a fatal infection. Had a treatment been applied on the Sabbath the fatality could be avoided. The same reasoning can be applied to many ailments.

Healing people? Well, there are other stories of other people doing that near the time of Jesus. Interestingly he was not the only "Galilean Holy Man" in the era. There is also credible(ish) tales of other Holy Men doing things like making it rain (see Honi HaMe'agel "Honi the circle drawer").

But the point is that Jesus had the authority to interpret and determine the Law. His authority did not derive from the leaders or established schools of the time. He claimed (accurately from our point of view) that his authority came from God, and that did not sit well with them. He did not interpret it the same way that they did (at that time), and that put him at odds with the leaders. Some did agree with him, but as he was outside of the establishment he was dismissed by them and they were jealous of his position.

Awe so, his works were pretty common to other rabbis. Came to show himself just a wiser Pharisee, and John's disciples the same.

 

[tampasteve]

Awe so, his works were pretty common to other rabbis. Came to show himself just a wiser Pharisee, and John's disciples the same.

I would say that his works were far from common, but not unknown. To this day God heals among the Godly and the Godless using less than perfect people, and people that are "holy men" in and out of Christianity. The healings were one of the signs, but not the only one.

 

[ralliann]

Exactly, they were trying to live the Torah outside of Temple worship and had their origins in the Babylonian exile. How do we Jews live a godly life when we don't have access to the Temple or live outside of Israel? For example, the Sabbath is a day of rest and no work is to be done. Okay, how far can I walk on the Sabbath before it becomes "work"? If I am carrying wood for a fire? What if I am carrying my baby instead?

I've served as a shabbos goy for Jewish friends to drive them to the synagogue or relight a pilot light in the winter. So I do get their desire to live within the Jewish framework.

We make light of them today but even we Christians have supported blue-laws for Sunday. Chik-fil-a is closed on Sunday as a day of rest and family. Heck just look at the Sabbath and the Law section on CF.

Christ's works are more than just Pharisaic Judaism par more excellent wisdom. That is what concerns me about this kind of dialogue.

 

[ralliann]

I would say that his works were far from common, but not unknown.

Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

To this day God heals among the Godly and the Godless using less than perfect people, and people that are "holy men" in and out of Christianity. The healings were one of the signs, but not the only one.

Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

His work was in no way to be diminished as common, as "practice" of Rabbinic Judaism IMO. A prophet like Moses...You must listen to him.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Christ's works are more than just Pharisaic Judaism par more excellent wisdom. That is what concerns me about this kind of dialogue.

Tampa and I arent agreeing with the Pharisees. We're just explaining how they came to be and where some of their opposition to Christ came from.

 

[ralliann]

Tampa and I arent agreeing with the Pharisees. We're just explaining how they came to be and where some of their opposition to Christ came from.

Scripture tells you that. They were puffed up and they were Jealous. Jesus was not the only one they rejected. They rejected John, the messenger sent to prepare the way. He gave testimony to Jesus as a prophet. All Judea went out to be baptized to receive remission of sins, except these same rulers. They couldn't accept they had to repent I guess. John also gave testimony of them. His disciples (the apostles) continued his Baptism during Jesus ministry. they were disciples of John, not the Pharisees.

Jh 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Mrk 11:29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. {question: or, thing }
30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say,
Why then did ye not believe him?

Lu 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.

But in these kinds of discussions, it's Just a little excitement over Which Rabbi is more wise. Jesus gets reduced to one among the Pharisees is all. A shammite, an hillelite Which branch of Pharisee was he aligning?

More than just wiser in the law, a prophet like
moses the law-giver.