The Jellyfish in the brains of science deeply insult mankind.

[dad]

oops, you better stop using electricity, television, telephone, clothing, food, clean water, paper, pencils, soap, money, radios, cars, eye glasses, light bulbs, eating utensils and EVERYTHING that science has helped to create.

As much as you want to give all the glory to science for everything, there is nothing at all that science gave us that has anything to do with being related to jellyfish. Not a single solitary thing.

Science is NOT the problem.

That depends on what the problem is supposed to be. For me, it is a problem when man claims that God is a liar and did not reeeaaallllllly create. Science does that today.

 

[AV1611VET]

I can't agree with your beliefs.

Why not?

Is there Someone inside of you saying otherwise?

 

[dad]

Why not?

Is there Someone inside of you saying otherwise?

Ha. I guess in some ways we are possessed by God.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

No support. Unless you think finding some proteins/genes/mucins/ in various creatures is support?

Well, of course they do! That's what the research paper is on! lol!

So if I find a metal rail on a track in a kid's park in St Petersburg Russia, and I find a steel rail on a track in Chicago, does that mean they go the same place/were built by the same people/and carry the same sort of trains?

Possibly, do they have manufacturing marks on them? Stamped with their factory details? are they the same guage? have the same load bearing rating? Same Batch Number?

If I see a twinkle in a star and my girlfriend's eyes, does that mean she is a star? If a rat has eyes, and you have eyes does that make you a rat? Etc

lol! nope! Are you upset that you're a Eukaryote? Chordate? Vertibrate? Synapsid? Mammal? Ape? Hominid? Which of these do you think you are?

You seem to think merely placing creatures on some evo tree is research? No. The research would be showing that the jellyfish actually was related by birth to man/some supposed mystery ancestor of man and jellyfish etc.

Nope, that's not research... Read the research paper and all the research papers that are referenced, point out where they got it wrong and write your own paper showing this and submit it! That's how Science is Done! Other Scientists go all out to disprove other scientists work, or if they can't, they incorporate it into their own research if it is useful information.

Finally, some quote that you actually think is research. Lets look at it then.

I bolded some quotes. So we take what may be created features of different kinds of animals, and find some sort of common things in various parts of the body. Conclusion: they all must be related and evolved just the right way. You kidding? I mean really???? How long will these vile little rags be called science or research when they are nothing but bad religion?

Nope, you're still failing at Science, I see.... More like "Conclusion: the evidence shows they all seem to be related and evolved just the right way, we can't disprove it." - Nothing is absolute in Science. If it can't be disproven using the scientific method, then it's likely useful information. That's why we live long, high quality lives with easy food supplies and modern conveniences - that's even how you have the ability to whine at me from around the globe at light speed! All because of the exact same scientific method that can't disprove evolution and common ancestry.

And God kept a lot of people safe despite whatever the government thought/said/did. If I recall, they said God was on their side in Germany and the US in WW2? There was a war to end all wars...? Ha. I guess there are people that believe all that rubbish.

Non-sequitur? There's no record of any Gods doing anything during any war, not sure what you're rambling on about at the end there - You can just say you have no comeback, there's no shame in it...

Male and female created He them.

...And what of the living examples we have of Guevedoche, Turnims, Pseudohermaphrodites, Hermaphrodies, Intersex, etc. we have on hand, were they born as such so God could condemn and ignore them for a birth defect and/or genetic condition they were born with?

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...o-grow-penises-at-the-age-of-12-10510919.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5α-Reductase_deficiency
https://www.bodyandsoul.com.au/mind...e/news-story/e10b63a35d67bd6c90fb5458ad3faae1
https://biologydictionary.net/hermaphrodite/
https://www.britannica.com/science/hermaphroditism
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM195604262541703
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudohermaphroditism​

You must hate being shown how ignorant you are so often... What was your God's plan for these people before we had operations you don't want them to have, Stay in that middleground your God doesn't acknowledge, to be beguiled, ridiculed and shunned for a lifetime of shame and persecution for not being clearly male or female??

I don't believe that. I don't think many involved in the procedure cared, and were about as hell bent as some of the early abortionists to just keep doing what they do.

Little like slavery loving Christians of the south, amirite? Though the amateur efforts of the professional psychiatrists back then were honestly trying to better humanity for everyone involved. When it was apparent it wasn't all that effective, it was rightly discarded voluntarily.

Tell me dad, were slave-beating Christians of the south honestly trying to better humanity for everyone involved, and then when they <ahem> realised it was wrong, discard the practice without force?

Not only slavery but all nations and all people are in sin. You think God likes things just because He does not condemn it in the bible? By the way slavery exists today and is growing. Does that mean you like it?

It's not me who supports slavery in my moral guide book, that's your torch to bear... how on earth did you jump from "slavery is okay in your bible, and this is how to own slaves", to "I love slavery, because Atheism!"? that's a very big leap from nowhere.

In this case the issue is lying to God. If a woman came before God (the priest) and swore she did not commit adultery and was lying...well..there were consequences. What do I take away from this? Do not think you can lie to God. That lesson is repeated elsewhere in the bible also.

Ahh, so you concede Abortion IS condoned in the Bible! Good job!

Better still, take it as me saying that modern DNA is not related to ancient DNA in the way you thought. You cannot trace anything back further than when this nature started. That makes DNA irrelevant to the origin debate.

Sure we can, and we Have! That's what all those research papers are showing - it isn't the paper that shows this, but the record of physical evidence they're reporting on. We've been able to trace these highly conserved genome sequences back through the tree of life showing that we can't disprove we are related. Given how spectacularly unlikely it is that we (along with all other life descended from the same point) could fluke the same combination of gene sequences in just humans, let alone every animal alive, we have to go with the evidence - no matter how much we don't like it. That's why we consistently get useful practical results from science all the time - by setting aside personal biases and going where the evidence leads.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

As much as you want to give all the glory to science for everything,

Not only are you bad at science, you are bad at reading my mind.

there is nothing at all that science gave us that has anything to do with being related to jellyfish. Not a single solitary thing.

There are those shared genes . . . . did you forget them?

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

To me, that says He's workin on you.

righto...

Yes, they had rejected God and turned to other gods...lots of them. I was surprised recently to find out that Greece, and Egypt and Babylon (and I think a few more) all came to exist within about 100 years or something of each other, and more importantly of the nature change time (which I place at the time of Babel)

So, no, nothing pre dates the One true God or His children.

Citation please - all the evidence we have points to your religion coming from the Roman-Greek era civilisations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Middle_Eastern_history
​

I like how this history includes the claimed events of the bible in line for reference, like:

5509 BCE – date of creation according to the Byzantine calendar
5403 BCE – expulsion from the Garden of Eden according to the Genealogies of Genesis
3760 BCE – date of creation according to some interpretations of Jewish chronology​

I couldn't find the flood narrative in there anywhere - but it seems the middle-east has a rich history that goes on and on for as long as there has been people living there, and that's several tens of thousands of years of it - Can you pinpoint where the flood was in that Timeline of Middle Eastern History @dad?

Yes and is still highly honored, for example his name is on the Eternal foundation of the walls of new Jerusalem. That wall is something like 6000 miles ling, 240 feet high, and composed of diamond, topaz, ruby, emerald...etc etc.

Nevertheless he also became an example of weak faith.

Cool story, bro! I approve of the rational discourse displayed by Tom, because faith is the worst way to come about the truth of anything. Tom had it right. I, too, along with pretty much every other rational thinker, shall await confirmation.

I assume Tracie is wrong and God is right. The more I look at science, the more I know God to be right.

lol! What God? Where?? I Still think you're deluding yourself....

I am not told just to believe in anything. I am asked to try to believe in Jesus. The One true God and creator and only way to eternal life and the Father.

yeah, on Faith, right? What actual "Evidence" do you have to support your belief besides "Faith"?

 

[cfyahoo08]

As much as you want to give all the glory to science for everything, there is nothing at all that science gave us that has anything to do with being related to jellyfish. Not a single solitary thing.


I said no such thing that science deserves any glory. We should be GREATFUL that we live in a time like we do to have been so richly blessed. God loves us enough to give us things like Doctors, Scientists, Mechanics, Engineers, CARPENTERS the list goes on and on.


That depends on what the problem is supposed to be. For me, it is a problem when man claims that God is a liar and did not reeeaaallllllly create. Science does that today.

 

[dad]

Well, of course they do! That's what the research paper is on! lol!

Telling stories about how some similar features in different creatures is because of ancient evolution is not research. It is foolish religion in drag.

Possibly, do they have manufacturing marks on them? Stamped with their factory details? are they the same guage? have the same load bearing rating? Same Batch Number?

Why, if the rails don't have a mark you are going to let loose on them with tall stories?

lol! nope! Are you upset that you're a Eukaryote? Chordate? Vertibrate? Synapsid? Mammal? Ape? Hominid? Which of these do you think you are?

The religious grouping/name games of phony science have no value whatsoever.

Nope, that's not research... Read the research paper and all the research papers that are referenced, point out where they got it wrong and write your own paper showing this and submit it! That's how Science is Done! Other Scientists go all out to disprove other scientists work, or if they can't, they incorporate it into their own research if it is useful information.

Name anything from any of these papers that is supportable in relation to proving creation is a lie and evolutiondunnit?

Nope, you're still failing at Science, I see.... More like "Conclusion: the evidence shows they all seem to be related and evolved just the right way, we can't disprove it." - Nothing is absolute in Science. If it can't be disproven using the scientific method, then it's likely useful information. That's why we live long, high quality lives with easy food supplies and modern conveniences - that's even how you have the ability to whine at me from around the globe at light speed! All because of the exact same scientific method that can't disprove evolution and common ancestry.

Always trying to sneak some actual science in with your fable factory fantasy science eh? I can see why, you want to try to hitch onto something that is real.

Non-sequitur? There's no record of any Gods doing anything during any war, not sure what you're rambling on about at the end there - You can just say you have no comeback, there's no shame in it...

Both sides claimed God was on their side.

...And what of the living examples we have of Guevedoche, Turnims, Pseudohermaphrodites, Hermaphrodies, Intersex, etc. we have on hand, were they born as such so God could condemn and ignore them for a birth defect and/or genetic condition they were born with?

There are many defects in this sin riddled world. That is no excuse to try and make all men defective.

You must hate being shown how ignorant you are so often... What was your God's plan for these people before we had operations you don't want them to have, Stay in that middleground your God doesn't acknowledge, to be beguiled, ridiculed and shunned for a lifetime of shame and persecution for not being clearly male or female??

Last time I checked most of the operations for sex changes was for people who wanted to change sex. Why pretend otherwise? You trying to hide behind exceptions?

Little like slavery loving Christians of the south, amirite? Though the amateur efforts of the professional psychiatrists back then were honestly trying to better humanity for everyone involved. When it was apparent it wasn't all that effective, it was rightly discarded voluntarily.

They may have been forced to stop what they were doing, and rightly so.

Tell me dad, were slave-beating Christians of the south honestly trying to better humanity for everyone involved, and then when they <ahem> realised it was wrong, discard the practice without force?

In sweatshops around the world we have slaves today. In the sex trade also. Even in electronics etc..

"
Today, the iPhone is made at a number of different factories around China, but for years, as it became the bestselling product in the world, it was largely assembled at Foxconn’s 1.4 square-mile flagship plant, just outside Shenzhen. The sprawling factory was once home to an estimated 450,000 workers. Today, that number is believed to be smaller, but it remains one of the biggest such operations in the world. If you know of Foxconn, there’s a good chance it’s because you’ve heard of the suicides. In 2010, Longhua assembly-line workers began killing themselves. Worker after worker threw themselves off the towering dorm buildings, sometimes in broad daylight, in tragic displays of desperation – and in protest at the work conditions inside. There were 18 reported suicide attempts that year alone and 14 confirmed deaths. Twenty more workers were talked down by Foxconn officials.

The epidemic caused a media sensation – suicides and sweatshop conditions in the House of iPhone. Suicide notes and survivors told of immense stress, long workdays and harsh managers who were prone to humiliate workers for mistakes, of unfair fines and unkept promises of benefits."

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...pple-iphone-brian-merchant-one-device-extract

It's not me who supports slavery in my moral guide book, that's your torch to bear.

False.

Ahh, so you concede Abortion IS condoned in the Bible! Good job!

No.

Sure we can, and we Have! That's what all those research papers are showing - it isn't the paper that shows this, but the record of physical evidence they're reporting on.

Then show it and defend it.

We've been able to trace these highly conserved genome sequences back through the tree of life showing that we can't disprove we are related.

No. You have not. You just believe real hard.

Given how spectacularly unlikely it is that we (along with all other life descended from the same point) could fluke the same combination of gene sequences in just humans, let alone every animal alive,

There is no life descended from the same point. That is your religious belief only.
Genes do not show any such thing in any way.

That's why we consistently get useful practical results from science all the time - by setting aside personal biases and going where the evidence leads.

There you go trying to piggy back the fable division of science onto the back of actual science.

 

[dad]

Not only are you bad at science, you are bad at reading my mind.

You said this
"oops, you better stop using electricity, television, telephone, clothing, food, clean water, paper, pencils, soap, money, radios, cars, eye glasses, light bulbs, eating utensils and EVERYTHING that science has helped to create."

There is no need to use or stop using anything you mentioned because some fables are wrongly attached to science.

There are those shared genes . . . . did you forget them?

How did genes transfer in the former nature? You don't know. What similar genes resulted from creation? You don't know. You seek to attribute it all to your religion.

 

[dad]

righto...

Citation please - all the evidence we have points to your religion coming from the Roman-Greek era civilisations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Middle_Eastern_history​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Middle_Eastern_history

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/peleg-lived-at-birth-of-egypt-babylon-and-greece.8048027/​

​

I like how this history includes the claimed events of the bible in line for reference, like:

5509 BCE – date of creation according to the Byzantine calendar
5403 BCE – expulsion from the Garden of Eden according to the Genealogies of Genesis
3760 BCE – date of creation according to some interpretations of Jewish chronology​

I couldn't find the flood narrative in there anywhere - but it seems the middle-east has a rich history that goes on and on for as long as there has been people living there, and that's several tens of thousands of years of it - Can you pinpoint where the flood was in that Timeline of Middle Eastern History @dad?

Yes, your dates are all faith based and rest on one belief alone. The belief the nature in the past was the same. Your dates are wrong. In real time the flood may have been, many say, around 4500 years ago.

Cool story, bro! I approve of the rational discourse displayed by Tom, because faith is the worst way to come about the truth of anything. Tom had it right. I, too, along with pretty much every other rational thinker, shall await confirmation.

Ok.

lol! What God? Where?? I Still think you're deluding yourself....

What post? What forum? What city? What planet?

yeah, on Faith, right? What actual "Evidence" do you have to support your belief besides "Faith"?

We are roasting your religion now.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Telling stories about how some similar features in different creatures is because of ancient evolution is not research. It is foolish religion in drag.

Correct, that's why what you've quoted is peer-reviewed science research instead! Story-telling is the purvey of Religion!

Why, if the rails don't have a mark you are going to let loose on them with tall stories?

Nope! If there aren't any marks showing it to be from the same factory/same batch/same guage, then there's no evidence to link the two then, is there? Unlike the research you linked to, that has quite a substantial amount of evidence.

The religious grouping/name games of phony science have no value whatsoever.

That's because Science isn't a religion - you must have your own religious fundamentalism confused with actual science.

Name anything from any of these papers that is supportable in relation to proving creation is a lie and evolutiondunnit?

Well, Creation isn't even touched on, but all of the research you linked to demonstrates that evidence. You're either just being beligerant, or you don't know how to science. or Both.

Always trying to sneak some actual science in with your fable factory fantasy science eh? I can see why, you want to try to hitch onto something that is real.

Same science... that's gotta be difficult to come to grips with - Does it bother you that you have no empirical basis for your fundamental interpretation that doesn't agree with reality?

Both sides claimed God was on their side.

and no Gods turned up for either side anyway...

There are many defects in this sin riddled world. That is no excuse to try and make all men defective.

Then why did your God make these men/women defective then?

Last time I checked most of the operations for sex changes was for people who wanted to change sex. Why pretend otherwise? You trying to hide behind exceptions?

Nope - From all the research we've been able to do so far, gender dysphoria also looks to be a physical defect these people are born with through no fault of their own - Why would your God condemn them to a life they have no control over, being attracted to the same sex they were born as? These people are born "NOT" entirely of the same sex - according to you, these people don't exist! What do you expect them to do, disappear into oblivion to protect your incorrect and faulty beliefs?

They may have been forced to stop what they were doing, and rightly so.

They pointed to the Bible in their righteousness to own slaves... I'm glad you've got at least slightly better morals than the Bible though, when you say they were rightly stopped.

In sweatshops around the world we have slaves today. In the sex trade also. Even in electronics etc..

"
Today, the iPhone is made at a number of different factories around China, but for years, as it became the bestselling product in the world, it was largely assembled at Foxconn’s 1.4 square-mile flagship plant, just outside Shenzhen. The sprawling factory was once home to an estimated 450,000 workers. Today, that number is believed to be smaller, but it remains one of the biggest such operations in the world. If you know of Foxconn, there’s a good chance it’s because you’ve heard of the suicides. In 2010, Longhua assembly-line workers began killing themselves. Worker after worker threw themselves off the towering dorm buildings, sometimes in broad daylight, in tragic displays of desperation – and in protest at the work conditions inside. There were 18 reported suicide attempts that year alone and 14 confirmed deaths. Twenty more workers were talked down by Foxconn officials.

The epidemic caused a media sensation – suicides and sweatshop conditions in the House of iPhone. Suicide notes and survivors told of immense stress, long workdays and harsh managers who were prone to humiliate workers for mistakes, of unfair fines and unkept promises of benefits."

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...pple-iphone-brian-merchant-one-device-extract

Nope, slavery is still not right - no matter how you want to frame it....

False.

lol! Wishes don't dictate reality.

No.

so, what was God doing to the woman's unborn child then, liberating it?

Then show it and defend it.

It's all there! You have yet to address it other than your usual "I Don't Like It!" pout.

No. You have not. You just believe real hard.

lol! Not me who thinks wishes are real... Address the Science already!!!

There is no life descended from the same point. That is your religious belief only.
Genes do not show any such thing in any way.

It Does! and You don't even understand the Science! lol!

There you go trying to piggy back the fable division of science onto the back of actual science.

It's the Same Science! that's such a thorn in your side, isn't it...? Why don't you just wish it weren't @dad, and perhaps it'll magically change your universe to "pretty-scienceless-universe-I-like!", right before your Very Eyes!!

 

[Kylie]

Thanks for the whine I guess. But it really would be good to work on getting some content.

Maybe one day you'll surprise us and produce some...

 

[dad]

Correct, that's why what you've quoted is peer-reviewed science research instead! Story-telling is the purvey of Religion!

Showing science is beliefs is the name of the game.

Nope! If there aren't any marks showing it to be from the same factory/same batch/same guage, then there's no evidence to link the two then, is there? Unlike the research you linked to, that has quite a substantial amount of evidence.

Common sense and reason and logic would do it.

That's because Science isn't a religion - you must have your own religious fundamentalism confused with actual science.

Denial is one of the earmarks of the religion. You display it.

Well, Creation isn't even touched on, but all of the research you linked to demonstrates that evidence. You're either just being beligerant, or you don't know how to science. or Both.

Why would I want to do religion? The important thing is exposing origin s called science as lies and fables. Too long have they blasphemed God.

Same science... that's gotta be difficult to come to grips with - Does it bother you that you have no empirical basis for your fundamental interpretation that doesn't agree with reality?

Reality as defined by your religion?

and no Gods turned up for either side anyway...

Nations must do stuff for God...not the other way round.

Then why did your God make these men/women defective then?

The consequences of man's choices. When He intervenes and overrules it, such consequences will not exist any more. It is time to admit your error.

Nope - From all the research we've been able to do so far, gender dysphoria also looks to be a physical defect these people are born with through no fault of their own - Why would your God condemn them to a life they have no control over, being attracted to the same sex they were born as? These people are born "NOT" entirely of the same sex - according to you, these people don't exist! What do you expect them to do, disappear into oblivion to protect your incorrect and faulty beliefs?

Exceptions due to defects aside, the sex change operations are for those with other issues than birth defects. Be honest.

They pointed to the Bible in their righteousness to own slaves... I'm glad you've got at least slightly better morals than the Bible though, when you say they were rightly stopped.

Pointing to the bible to cover greed and sin is nothing new.

Nope, slavery is still not right - no matter how you want to frame it....

Great, so stop the world.

so, what was God doing to the woman's unborn child then, liberating it?

What woman?

It's the Same Science!

No more than tom thumb is science.

and perhaps it'll magically change your universe to "pretty-scienceless-universe-I-like!", right before your Very Eyes!!

Modern so called science is destined to be an everlasting blot and shame on the human experience.

 

[dad]

Maybe one day you'll surprise us and produce some...

Thanks for the fresh whine.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/peleg-lived-at-birth-of-egypt-babylon-and-greece.8048027/

never heard of peleg, or phaleg, I prefer reading Lord of the Rings, tbh... a much more entertaining & coherent story

Yes, your dates are all faith based and rest on one belief alone. The belief the nature in the past was the same. Your dates are wrong. In real time the flood may have been, many say, around 4500 years ago.

Except all the evidence shows us being around for hundreds of millenia, and the timeline over the past ten millenia as shown there. It seems nobody noticed the start of Creation week, nor expulsion from the Garden of Eden, nor your worldwide Flood... lol!

What post? What forum? What city? What planet?

Agreed. Makes no sense.

We are roasting your religion now.

LOL!

 

[cfyahoo08]

righto...

Citation please - all the evidence we have points to your religion coming from the Roman-Greek era civilisations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Middle_Eastern_history
​

I like how this history includes the claimed events of the bible in line for reference, like:

5509 BCE – date of creation according to the Byzantine calendar
5403 BCE – expulsion from the Garden of Eden according to the Genealogies of Genesis
3760 BCE – date of creation according to some interpretations of Jewish chronology​

I couldn't find the flood narrative in there anywhere - but it seems the middle-east has a rich history that goes on and on for as long as there has been people living there, and that's several tens of thousands of years of it - Can you pinpoint where the flood was in that Timeline of Middle Eastern History @dad?

Cool story, bro! I approve of the rational discourse displayed by Tom, because faith is the worst way to come about the truth of anything. Tom had it right. I, too, along with pretty much every other rational thinker, shall await confirmation.

lol! What God? Where?? I Still think you're deluding yourself....

yeah, on Faith, right? What actual "Evidence" do you have to support your belief besides "Faith"?

He has a corroborate witness, well technically about 4 billion of them, as well as physical structures, documentation, archeological evidence .

 

[Aman777]

Why would I try to show wild fantasies to be wrong?

To show others that your interpretation of the Bible is correct and mine is wrong. What's the matter? Isn't that what message boards are for?

 

[Aman777]

Baloney.

Let's examine your view Scripturally...

Aman777 said: ↑
Un-Scriptural. God (Elohim-The Trinity) didn't make Adam from dust. Lord God/Jesus made Adam and gave him temporary life on the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4-7

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God (YHWH/Jesus) formed man of the dust of the ground,

Aman:>>God the Trinity "created" Adam which means that Adam was made immortal on the present 6th Day Gen 1:27 or Spiritually in the Image and likeness of Jesus. Adam will live forever just as God lives forever. Gen 1:26 Gen 5:1-2 and John 14:16

Gen 1:27 So God (Elohim-The Trinity) created man in His own Image, in the Image of God (Jesus) created he him; male and female created he them.

Today, God continues to create Adam/mankind in His Image which is Spiritually in Jesus Christ. Col 1:15 ¶ Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Just ask ANY Gospel preacher........

 

[Aman777]

Not buying manure today, thanks.

You are referring to Scripture as manure. Be ashamed.

 

[Aman777]

The question is are we created and in the image of God. If so, then a jellyfish kin origin is truly insulting both to us, and to the One who told us how we actually got here.

False, since mankind of FLESH is NOT what is created in Christ, the only Image of the invisible God. You don't seem to know the difference between the Spiritual and the Fleshly. More study is indicated since your view is preposterous. IMHO