The issues with Sola Scriptura

[Wolf_Says]

I am referring to the same thing in both instances.

Sorry, it does not seem like it. To me it seems you are trying to find proof that Catholics worship the saints, which is untrue.

If it is the talking to, isn't it clear from the Bible that those in heaven can indeed hear us and are aware of what is happening on earth?
Take the Transfiguration of Jesus in Matthew 17:3-5, seems to me that both Moses and Elijah are talking with Jesus and are therefore aware of what is happening on earth.
You can also look to Luke 15:7-10. The angles are aware that a sinner has repented. They must be aware of what is happening and be able to hear us on earth.
Jesus also talks of the little ones' angles in Matthew 18:10. Clearly their angles hear and see what happens to the children they are watching over and can report of it to God.

 

[Albion]

Sorry, it does not seem like it.

Well, it is.

To me it seems you are trying to find proof that Catholics worship the saints, which is untrue.

To the extent that they do worship the saints, that's wrong. But the issue here isn't that one. It's about the rightness or wrongness of praying to the dead, i.e. to those who have passed on.

If it is the talking to, isn't it clear from the Bible that those in heaven can indeed hear us and are aware of what is happening on earth.

Take the Transfiguration of Jesus in Matthew 17:3-5, seems to me that both Moses and Elijah are talking with Jesus and are therefore aware of what is happening on earth.

You can also look to Luke 15:7-10. The angles are aware that a sinner has repented. They must be aware of what is happening and be able to hear us on earth

Jesus also talks of the little ones' angles in Matthew 18:10. Clearly their angles hear and see what happens to the children they are watching over and can report of it to God.

We were speaking of the deceased, were we not? And we were speaking of us praying to spirits, were we not?

None of this ^ verifies such actions.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Well, it is.


To the extent that they do worship the saints, that's wrong. But the issue here isn't that one. It's about the rightness or wrongness of praying to the dead, i.e. to those who have passed on.

No, it is logical, because if they are happy that a sinner has repented, then obviously they are aware.

I threw in the angle verses to give extra proof that those in heaven can and do hear us. If the saints are sitting close to God, glorifying Him in Heaven, along with the angles, clearly both should be able to hear us and pray for us.

You acknowledged that the saints pray for us, would it also make sense that if they can and do pray for us, that they must be able to hear us?

You also skipped over the Moses and Elijah part and went right to the angle part.

 

[Albion]

No, it is logical, because if they are happy that a sinner has repented, then obviously they are aware.

They are aware =/= pray to them.

I threw in the angle verses to give extra proof that those in heaven can and do hear us.

If we're being straight about this, we don't know for certain all who can hear us and who cannot.

That's why the little diversions are out of place--that the faithful departed are actually alive (as spirits), that they care about humanity, that deceased humans are treated as analogous to angels, that some of our prayers may be called worship, or asking, or petitioning, or something else. None of that erases the fact that we are not told anywhere in Scripture to pray to those who have passed on or that they can hear our prayers anyway. And that is what we had been discussing, not some of these other matters.

If the saints are sitting close to God, glorifying Him in Heaven, along with the angles, clearly both should be able to hear us and pray for us.

What makes you think so?

You acknowledged that the saints pray for us, would it also make sense that if they can and do pray for us, that they must be able to hear us?

Not necessarily. Being aware of the Communion of Saints would do that in itself. Besides, when praying to the saints is the issue, the most common idea is of a single person petitioning a particular (and presumed) saint to act as an intermediary with God or, worse, to act on his own to make something we want happen for us. This goes WAY beyond what you are talking about here.

You also skipped over the Moses and Elijah part and went right to the angle part.

I hope that is an acknowledgement of the logic in what I said about the other citations , but the reason there was that I do not think we can generalize to a widespread devotion from such a singular event in the life of Jesus Christ. Other than that Moses is shown to be conscious, there's not much else that applies to the practice we have been discussing.

 

[Graham Dull]

You never pray for others, or ask others to pray for you?

I regularly pray for others, and often ask others to pray for me. Just yesterday for example, I prayed for others on several occasions, and once asked a person to pray for me, which he did right there and then.

However, I did not pray to anyone other than God.

 

[Graham Dull]

We ask the saints to pray FOR us.

SAINTS?
Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus.
Philippians 1:1
To all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons.

There were saints at Ephesus, there were saints at Philippi, and I am a saint living in Australia.

According to God, I am a saint. Would you pray to me? Then I can intercede to God on your behalf.

 

[DJKWord]

The bible tells us that the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective. Catholics don't have to ask others to pray for us, we get to. Why wouldn't we ask others to pray for us and also pray for others? We are one body.

Why should this include dead people? That just sounds creepy and morbid.

However, the Catholic understanding of praying is just talking, or asking. So there is no worship involved.

There's all the hair-splitting about latria, dulia and hyperdulia, but I once had a Navy roommate who was a staunch Catholic and whose brother was studying for the priesthood. He was honest. "Our religion's not like yours," he said. "We worship Mary."

In the Bible, God alone is prayed to/venerated/worshiped. In Catholicism, it seems to be everyone else.

 

[Thursday]

SAINTS?
Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus.
Philippians 1:1
To all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons.

There were saints at Ephesus, there were saints at Philippi, and I am a saint living in Australia.

According to God, I am a saint. Would you pray to me? Then I can intercede to God on your behalf.

Yes, I can ask you to pray for me.

Do you believe you will stop praying in heaven?

 

[Thursday]

Why should this include dead people? That just sounds creepy and morbid.



There's all the hair-splitting about latria, dulia and hyperdulia, but I once had a Navy roommate who was a staunch Catholic and whose brother was studying for the priesthood. He was honest. "Our religion's not like yours," he said. "We worship Mary."

In the Bible, God alone is prayed to/venerated/worshiped. In Catholicism, it seems to be everyone else.

Your friend was confused or you misunderstood. Catholic teaching is explicit and clear that worship is for God alone.

 

[Albion]

Yes, I can ask you to pray for me.

Do you believe you will stop praying in heaven?

Can't bring yourself to stick to the actual issue here, can you? I'm referring to us praying TO the dead, not to them praying for us or whether people living on Earth can pray for their neighbors. Incidentally, you don't even know if those who have passed on and to whom you direct your prayers can hear them or even if they are in heaven. Not all the dead are in heaven, you know.

 

[Job8]

He was honest. "Our religion's not like yours," he said. "We worship Mary."

This is a lot closer to the truth than all the sophistry about veneration etc. We just have to look at some of the prayers and hymns to Mary.

 

[Albion]

This is a lot closer to the truth than all the sophistry about veneration etc. We just have to look at some of the prayers and hymns to Mary.

We usually don't to that in these discussions but it is indeed the surest way to dispel the claim that Mary is not worshipped.

 

[Hawkiz]

I regularly pray for others, and often ask others to pray for me. Just yesterday for example, I prayed for others on several occasions, and once asked a person to pray for me, which he did right there and then.

However, I did not pray to anyone other than God.

So it IS in fact OK to ask others to intercede on your behalf? And it IS OK for you to intercede for others? So you get the concept then? The question to you is then why, exactly from Scripture, should this praying stop upon entrance to Heaven? Do people in Heaven stop loving those still here on earth?

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

 

[Graham Dull]

So it IS in fact OK to ask others to intercede on your behalf? And it IS OK for you to intercede for others? So you get the concept then? The question to you is then why, exactly from Scripture, should this praying stop upon entrance to Heaven? Do people in Heaven stop loving those still here on earth?

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

.
There is a difference between 'for' and 'to?'

I do not pray 'to' others.

I do not ask others to pray 'to' me.
.

 

[Albion]

So it IS in fact OK to ask others to intercede on your behalf?

Yes, so long as they are alive (in the flesh).

lAnd it IS OK for you to intercede for others?

The word is usually used in connection with the idea that the person being entreated has some "in" with God and can leverage a positive response from Him. That is the situation of the saints IN THEORY, but the situation of those of us here and now is not the same as that.

So you get the concept then? The question to you is then why, exactly from Scripture, should this praying stop upon entrance to Heaven?

What praying are you referring to? We praying to them? I should think that you would appreciate that there's a difference--several important ones, in fact--between asking for the prayers of someone who is alive and someone who has died.

Do people in Heaven stop loving those still here on earth?

No. But the question up for discussion was about the propriety of us praying to spirits.

 

[DJKWord]

Your friend was confused or you misunderstood.

I'm afraid not. He took pains to make it clear. I was a new convert, going on about Jesus all the time, and I think he felt he needed to set me straight.

Catholic teaching is explicit and clear that worship is for God alone.

Well, Catholics keep teaching me the following: we're supposed to "venerate" Mary; we're supposed to pray to the saints; and when we do worship Jesus, it's in the form of bread.

To bring this back around to SS, I'm listening to Foxe's Book of Martyrs at my job. As time went on after Christ, religious officials added one thing, then another, then another. I listed these in an earlier post, but they included Transubstantiation, praying to Mary and the saints, praying to statues of Mary and the saints, indulgences, purgatory. A number of Christians naturally wondered where these came from, since the New Testament makes no mention of them. They were also alarmed at the call to worship images and the aforementioned bread, and refused to do it. And so untold numbers of them were condemned, persecuted, tortured and burned alive as "heretics."

If the church had remained within the Scriptures as Christ did, and not repeated the Pharisees' mistake of adding their own traditions which (as Christ pointed out) inevitably clash with the Bible, none of those atrocities ever would have happened.

 

[Hawkiz]

.
There is a difference between 'for' and 'to?'

I do not pray 'to' others.

I do not ask others to pray 'to' me.
.

To pray is to ask.
So in fact you DO pray 'to' others when you ask a prayer request 'to' (as in directed 'to' them in conversation).

 

[Rick Otto]

So it IS in fact OK to ask others to intercede on your behalf? And it IS OK for you to intercede for others? So you get the concept then? The question to you is then why, exactly from Scripture, should this praying stop upon entrance to Heaven? Do people in Heaven stop loving those still here on earth?

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

They certainly stop conversing... at least in my experience.
Do you converse with (as opposed to talk at) dead believers?

 

[Albion]

To pray is to ask.
So in fact you DO pray 'to' others when you ask a prayer request 'to' (as in directed 'to' them in conversation).

I'm not convinced that we can put it quite that way. To pray may be a FORM OF asking but it's more than merely asking something.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I'm not convinced that we can put it quite that way. To pray may be a FORM OF asking but it's more than merely asking something.

In that equation a conversation is prayer but unlike talking with anyone else but God.