The Issue of Perseverance/Eternal Security

[Duvduv]

I guess it's very hard to address the underlying philosophical problems of the concept of salvation (whatever that really is) since it isn't elaborated in the gospels, which is the basis for the whole religion. And no one can say there is a perseverance of the saints upon acceptance of Jesus regardless of deeds since it cannot be proven empirically. And no one has a Certificate of Salvation signed by Jesus to prove that a person is saved. This most certainly is the problem leading to so many assorted interpretations among all the competing denominations over the centuries since the Reformation.

 

[Doug Melven]

I guess it's very hard to address the underlying philosophical problems of the concept of salvation (whatever that really is) since it isn't elaborated in the gospels, which is the basis for the whole religion. And no one can say there is a perseverance of the saints upon acceptance of Jesus regardless of deeds since it cannot be proven empirically. And no one has a Certificate of Salvation signed by Jesus to prove that a person is saved. This most certainly is the problem leading to so many assorted interpretations among all the competing denominations over the centuries since the Reformation.

I take it you don't believe God's Word.
He gave His word that those who trust Him would be saved. John 3:16

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I guess it's very hard to address the underlying philosophical problems of the concept of salvation (whatever that really is) since it isn't elaborated in the gospels, which is the basis for the whole religion. And no one can say there is a perseverance of the saints upon acceptance of Jesus regardless of deeds since it cannot be proven empirically. And no one has a Certificate of Salvation signed by Jesus to prove that a person is saved. This most certainly is the problem leading to so many assorted interpretations among all the competing denominations over the centuries since the Reformation.

The "problems" you refer to have happened ever since the first to third centuries, as there were already "many anti-christs among us" then.
There is no philosophical problem of the concept of salvation for little children who trust the Father in heaven by faith in Jesus in grace. (it is not at all about philosophy; but does include SALVATION FROM and away from philosophy) ....

For those who believe, "proven empirically" means nothing - probably anything proven empirically, even the methods thereof, are not even to enter the thoughts of any Ekklesia born again by the Will of the Father from heaven.

No "certificate of Salvation " is needed nor sought nor implied in Scripture -
the Promise of Yahweh is more than enough, a better guarantee than a million contracts of man, whether Jew or Greek.

The flesh likes interpretations, perhaps. No worries for those who are saved.
No interpretations needed. Only Yahweh's Word and His understanding matters, as Yahweh reveals according to His Own Plan and His Word and Purpose in Jesus.

 

[Peter1000]

There are no contradictions in God's Word.
There APPEAR to be contradictions, but when we correctly understand God's Word, there are none.
And as for so many denominations, it is solely because we don't take the time to understand God's Word.

If you sat down with 500 denominations to try to understand the bible, it would not be long until there was blood on the floor.

We all are not that far off from the truth, but it is the details that get us.
For instance in the 400ad time period, the church was wrestling with the nature of Christ. 1/2 said he had 2 nature, human and divine in 1 person.
1/2 said he only had 2 natures, but the human nature was completely merged into the divine nature and so there was only 1 nature, divine, in 1 person. There was a big council to get things straight. I think it was at Chalcedon. The council came out with 2 natures in 1 person and 1/4 of the churches (Oriental Orthodox) said we are taking our ball and going home and left the mother church which created the largest, by far, schism of the Christian churches. They have not come back into the fold even today.

So lets not get together, we will have 1000 churches after we do.

 

[Peter1000]

The "problems" you refer to have happened ever since the first to third centuries, as there were already "many anti-christs among us" then.
There is no philosophical problem of the concept of salvation for little children who trust the Father in heaven by faith in Jesus in grace. (it is not at all about philosophy; but does include SALVATION FROM and away from philosophy) ....

For those who believe, "proven empirically" means nothing - probably anything proven empirically, even the methods thereof, are not even to enter the thoughts of any Ekklesia born again by the Will of the Father from heaven.

No "certificate of Salvation " is needed nor sought nor implied in Scripture -
the Promise of Yahweh is more than enough, a better guarantee than a million contracts of man, whether Jew or Greek.

The flesh likes interpretations, perhaps. No worries for those who are saved.
No interpretations needed. Only Yahweh's Word and His understanding matters, as Yahweh reveals according to His Own Plan and His Word and Purpose in Jesus.

The problem is that it seems to many denominations, there are many paths available to salvation according to Yahweh's Word. Which one of them is the right one?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

None of them.
Clarifying explanation coming after getting clothes out of the dryer ! (have to go; be back in a while, Yahweh willing)

The problem is that it seems to many denominations, there are many paths available to salvation according to Yahweh's Word. Which one of them is the right one?

 

[Peter1000]

I take it you don't believe God's Word.
He gave His word that those who trust Him would be saved. John 3:16

It is interesting that you use the word 'trust' so often and then you give us a scripture to read that supports your belief and it does not have the word 'trust' in it at all. What is with that?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If you knew the right one in the past, why didn't you stay with it ?
If you find out the right one today or in the future, would you be willing to go the right way , sacrificing all of your life for the truth ?

If not, do you think you will ever even be able to learn what is the way to go to be forgiven of being an enemy of the Creator and an enemy of Messiah Yahshua and to ever some day perhaps have eternal life ?

The problem is that it seems to many denominations, there are many paths available to salvation according to Yahweh's Word. Which one of them is the right one?

 

[Duvduv]

None of these postings addresses the issue of the different denominations about this subject. People just fight over verses. Very boring....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That is the nature of men.

Yahweh tells the Truth, Simple.

Worldly men come up with many devices, complicated and wrongly.

None of these postings addresses the issue of the different denominations about this subject. People just fight over verses. Very boring....

 

[HTacianas]

I have been fascinated in reading various Christian positions about this issue, although I find it confusing. As I understand it the question is does a person acquire eternal salvation by accepting Jesus as his/her savior once and for all, is it an ongoing process of personal commitment and achievement, is it possible to lose, and does it require specific activities in addition to this "being born again"??

If one were to categorize the answers to these questions, one would find:

1) Faith alone guarantees salvation, and nothing can be done as activity ("good deeds") to ensure it. Good deeds are the effect or sign of being right with God after attaining salvation, and misbehavior is a sign that in all likelihood the original commitment was not sincere at all. If I understand correctly, this position is advocated by Baptists, Lutherans and Presbyterians ("Calvinists").

2) A variation on this position stipulates that one may lose salvation and have to start from scratch, and even with the faith commitment one must consciously work on it with proper conduct and good deeds, to hopefully reach salvation at the end of the road. This would be the position advocated by Methodists and a variety of offshoots such as Pentecostals.

3) Private faith alone does not guarantees salvation. One must also carry out certain specific activities/good deeds to ensure this salvation (sacraments). In addition, day to day good deeds are the effect of being right with God. Also, it is possible to lose salvation and be required to start again from scratch including improving oneself and performing good deeds constantly. If I understand correctly, this would be the position of Roman Catholicism and the Orthodox, and possibly the Anglican Church although apparently they are not strictly dogmatic about these things.

4) Other churches such as Restorationist ones may have variations on all of these based on their understanding of the Bible directly without specific established doctrines.

Somewhere in there you say "based on their understanding of the Bible". Well, to answer your question, the people who wrote the bible take your position #3 above, with some variances.

 

[Duvduv]

Htacianas, but isn't it true that all denominations appeal to verses for their differing positions?!

 

[HTacianas]

Htacianas, but isn't it true that all denominations appeal to verses for their differing positions?!

Yes, I suppose that is true enough. But appealing to a single verse often leads to contradictions with other verses. It has to be taken as a whole, and most times at face value. No verbal gymnastics synthesizing or attempts at harmonizing those contradictions.

One of the biggies I suppose is the faith vs. works dilemma. Some say Paul claims faith alone is sufficient for salvation, while James outright states it is not.

We cannot appeal to individual verses, or books for that matter, we have to take as a whole.

 

[Duvduv]

And that's exactly what each competing denomination claims!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And that's exactly what each competing denomination claims!

Notice in TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS that Yahweh calls and speaks to and leads His people ? (and no other nation on earth )

 

[Peter1000]

If you knew the right one in the past, why didn't you stay with it ?
If you find out the right one today or in the future, would you be willing to go the right way , sacrificing all of your life for the truth ?

If not, do you think you will ever even be able to learn what is the way to go to be forgiven of being an enemy of the Creator and an enemy of Messiah Yahshua and to ever some day perhaps have eternal life ?

I have known the true path since my birth, and I am on it.

If you were to show me something that is above what I have, I would be willing to sacrifice all and come to that path. So do your best.

This is what you are competing with:
1) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is lead by Jesus Christ himself and along with 12 apostles and a first presidency that includes a prophet of God, this constitutes the foundation of the church. The same as the first century church at the time of Christ.
2) We believe in the Bible, but we also believe in other words that Jesus has spoken to men in the past, such as the Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.
3) We believe that Jesus has given us his words in the past, (Bible, BOM etc) but we also believe he will give us much more of his words in the presence and the future to a living prophet of God. Just like in the first century church. (The first century church only had the OT to start with, but then Jesus gave his new words to apostles and prophets who wrote those new words and they became the NT for their times and conditions. In our time we need Jesus's words to know what to do in our day and in our conditions. Hence living apostles and prophets with Jesus as the Chief Cornerstone, just like the first century church.
4) We have the transportation and communication technologies this day to take the gospel to the whole world, and so with a missionary force near 90,000 full time missionaries + all members in wards and stakes, we plan to do just that.

This is a tip of the iceberg of the real gospel of Jesus Christ, so what can you add to that, that would make me leave this belief system and give up all and come over to the path you are on. Let me know, I am interested.