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The Interview with Dr. Kellogg
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Excerpt # 11 of the Interview with Dr. Kellogg
Dr. Kellogg: They said we should not invite boys and girls, inexperienced young people, to come to the Sanitarium. We do not do it. I said "We want experienced people of established character and nobody else. That is the kind we want."
Show me wherein we are going contrary to any instructions we have received. We were instructed to take hold and make the Sanitarium a success, and we are doing it. And the Lord is helping us, and the thing is succeeding beyond our most brilliant expectations. It was intimated to us that we ought not to let down our principles or to make any compromise in order to get patronage, and we haven't. We are trying to hold our principles up a little higher than we used to.
I told you what you can do--you can verify my statements. If you will write to Elder Daniells, to Prof. Prescott, to Elder Butler, to W. C. White and ask them when they came to me or to W. K. and held out to us the hand of fellowship and what thing they did in that direction--write to them and ask them. Write to Sister White and ask her what those brethren ever did in the way of carrying out the instruction she gave them. I have told you that they never took one step toward following out the instruction.
Now, then, if I am wrong about it, you say that is contrary to what Sister White has said. But now you have heard my statement. I will give you a copy of it if you want it, and you can send that to Sister White and ask her wherein I have misstated anything. Or to Elder Butler, Daniells, or Prescott.
Amadon: What Sister White sent here one time--I wanted you to see and read it yourself before it was read in the Tabernacle. I thought certainly that must melt down everything. Sister White said there on the occasion of that meeting that it seemed as though there would be a rending asunder of soul and spirit, and she said the Lord Jesus Christ came down himself and would have taken you right by the hand, and your brother Will, and would have lifted you right out into the light and liberty, but it wasn't done. Now your statement throws--
Dr. Kellogg: I will go further and tell you something more. I am telling you the truth before the Lord. There were a lot of brethren there that knew it all. I am aware of what you say--that the two stories are not parallel. I cannot account for that. Only that there were some things the Lord did not let Sister White know about.
I will tell you something more I don't believe she knows anything about at all. The last morning I was there, after I had been there several days, I sat in the house the next door to the house where W. C. White was staying. And I saw him out on the back porch or sitting on a log somewhere with his head in his hands. And I said, "Will looks as though he is feeling pretty bad." And he had some reason to, because, you see, when Prof. Prescott preached a sermon on Friday night against me and against the Living Temple, in which he did not read a line out of Living Temple, but he read out of Spiritualist books, heathen books, and pantheistic books, and theosophical books--read all those things, horrible things, making those people believe that he was reading out of my book all the time. It was the most horrible thing; I could not stand it, and I came pretty nearly shouting out at the time.
Somebody asked him what book he was reading from, and he would not tell them. Then he went on and told this awful tale, these awful heathen doctrines, and said, "This is the doctrine that is being taught among us by this book that has been circulated." But in College View he stated before a public audience that we had circulated 50,000 copies of that book; and it was a falsehood. And he knew it was a falsehood when he told it--of the Living Temple.
Elder Evans came to my house when he got back and said, "Prof. Prescott, W. C. White and Elder Daniells have bound themselves together in a conspiracy to ruin you and I have letters which I think will prove it."
Elder Evans came here into this room and voluntarily said that to me after the Omaha meeting or the Lincoln council they had held just the fall after the Berrien Springs meeting. Now that was true, Brother Amadon.
You know Elder Haskell very well, don't you?
Amadon: I rather think I do.
Dr. Kellogg: They said we should not invite boys and girls, inexperienced young people, to come to the Sanitarium. We do not do it. I said "We want experienced people of established character and nobody else. That is the kind we want."
Show me wherein we are going contrary to any instructions we have received. We were instructed to take hold and make the Sanitarium a success, and we are doing it. And the Lord is helping us, and the thing is succeeding beyond our most brilliant expectations. It was intimated to us that we ought not to let down our principles or to make any compromise in order to get patronage, and we haven't. We are trying to hold our principles up a little higher than we used to.
I told you what you can do--you can verify my statements. If you will write to Elder Daniells, to Prof. Prescott, to Elder Butler, to W. C. White and ask them when they came to me or to W. K. and held out to us the hand of fellowship and what thing they did in that direction--write to them and ask them. Write to Sister White and ask her what those brethren ever did in the way of carrying out the instruction she gave them. I have told you that they never took one step toward following out the instruction.
Now, then, if I am wrong about it, you say that is contrary to what Sister White has said. But now you have heard my statement. I will give you a copy of it if you want it, and you can send that to Sister White and ask her wherein I have misstated anything. Or to Elder Butler, Daniells, or Prescott.
Amadon: What Sister White sent here one time--I wanted you to see and read it yourself before it was read in the Tabernacle. I thought certainly that must melt down everything. Sister White said there on the occasion of that meeting that it seemed as though there would be a rending asunder of soul and spirit, and she said the Lord Jesus Christ came down himself and would have taken you right by the hand, and your brother Will, and would have lifted you right out into the light and liberty, but it wasn't done. Now your statement throws--
Dr. Kellogg: I will go further and tell you something more. I am telling you the truth before the Lord. There were a lot of brethren there that knew it all. I am aware of what you say--that the two stories are not parallel. I cannot account for that. Only that there were some things the Lord did not let Sister White know about.
I will tell you something more I don't believe she knows anything about at all. The last morning I was there, after I had been there several days, I sat in the house the next door to the house where W. C. White was staying. And I saw him out on the back porch or sitting on a log somewhere with his head in his hands. And I said, "Will looks as though he is feeling pretty bad." And he had some reason to, because, you see, when Prof. Prescott preached a sermon on Friday night against me and against the Living Temple, in which he did not read a line out of Living Temple, but he read out of Spiritualist books, heathen books, and pantheistic books, and theosophical books--read all those things, horrible things, making those people believe that he was reading out of my book all the time. It was the most horrible thing; I could not stand it, and I came pretty nearly shouting out at the time.
Somebody asked him what book he was reading from, and he would not tell them. Then he went on and told this awful tale, these awful heathen doctrines, and said, "This is the doctrine that is being taught among us by this book that has been circulated." But in College View he stated before a public audience that we had circulated 50,000 copies of that book; and it was a falsehood. And he knew it was a falsehood when he told it--of the Living Temple.
Elder Evans came to my house when he got back and said, "Prof. Prescott, W. C. White and Elder Daniells have bound themselves together in a conspiracy to ruin you and I have letters which I think will prove it."
Elder Evans came here into this room and voluntarily said that to me after the Omaha meeting or the Lincoln council they had held just the fall after the Berrien Springs meeting. Now that was true, Brother Amadon.
You know Elder Haskell very well, don't you?
Amadon: I rather think I do.
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Excerpt # 12 of the Interview with Dr. Kellogg
Dr. Kellogg: At that same meeting, a few days before Elder Evans came here, two years ago last September--a few days before that--Elder Haskell had been out there at that meeting, and one morning I got a very urgent telephone call from Lincoln. I went to the telephone and found Elder Haskell wanted to talk to me. This was just after Sister White's first visit here when she came to the Sanitarium, stayed over night, and spoke in the Tabernacle. She went out there. After that meeting was over, Elder Haskell telephoned to me and said, "I want to see you." So I arranged to meet him in St. Louis, and he came down to St. Louis to meet me.
The first thing he said to me was, "Doctor, these men, Daniells and Prescott, have come to the end of their rope. Sister White has been out to Battle Creek, and she has seen that they have not told her the truth about things." He said, "Sister White told me and told the people there,'Why, Dr. Kellogg is just the same as he always was. Dr. Kellogg is not fighting me. Dr. Kellogg treated me just as he always did. And there at the Sanitarium they treated me just as they always did.'"
They told her we were fighting her, condemning her, trying to oppose her--told her I had a book written to expose the Testimonies, to show up the weak side of things, and she believed it was true. But she came here and found there wasn't a word of it true.
Sister White must have told you; she told several others here, at any rate. She spoke in the Sanitarium gymnasium and I spoke following. And she said she would not ask me to say anything more than I did say. She told them out there they must stop this work.
They went to her and told her, "Sister White, it cannot be stopped. It will be ruin; it will be ruin." So they insisted on going on. But Elder Haskell said to me, "They have come to the end of their rope, and now they are coming up to Battle Creek to try to get some new point against you. I want to see you and put you on your guard."
That is the solemn truth Brother Amadon.
So Sister White came back and I came. They came before I did and they got hold of something that changed her mind again--got her to believe I was a forger. They got hold of something and took it to her.
Do you know Martha Byington?
Amadon: I think I do.
Dr. Kellogg: She was with her. And Mrs. L. M. Hall, do you know her? They were with Sister White at that time, and they knew just what was done. These men came to her with my name signed to a document; my signature was there, and I had denied in writing that I had ever signed that document. And I never did sign it. And yet my own signature was there. They told her that I denied having signed that, that I had forged it. It was a $1000 note that I had "forged," and they got things mixed up so that she thought I had forged $50,000, and they found out at last that the bonds were fraudulent--they found out all about it. And although she came here on purpose to see me, sent word to me to St. Louis to meet her, when I got here she would not talk to me at all, would not speak to me, only to say "How do you do?" She told several people it had been discovered at last I was a forger and had defrauded, and the bonds were fraudulent. And she stuck to it and believes it until this day.
Dr. Kellogg: At that same meeting, a few days before Elder Evans came here, two years ago last September--a few days before that--Elder Haskell had been out there at that meeting, and one morning I got a very urgent telephone call from Lincoln. I went to the telephone and found Elder Haskell wanted to talk to me. This was just after Sister White's first visit here when she came to the Sanitarium, stayed over night, and spoke in the Tabernacle. She went out there. After that meeting was over, Elder Haskell telephoned to me and said, "I want to see you." So I arranged to meet him in St. Louis, and he came down to St. Louis to meet me.
The first thing he said to me was, "Doctor, these men, Daniells and Prescott, have come to the end of their rope. Sister White has been out to Battle Creek, and she has seen that they have not told her the truth about things." He said, "Sister White told me and told the people there,'Why, Dr. Kellogg is just the same as he always was. Dr. Kellogg is not fighting me. Dr. Kellogg treated me just as he always did. And there at the Sanitarium they treated me just as they always did.'"
They told her we were fighting her, condemning her, trying to oppose her--told her I had a book written to expose the Testimonies, to show up the weak side of things, and she believed it was true. But she came here and found there wasn't a word of it true.
Sister White must have told you; she told several others here, at any rate. She spoke in the Sanitarium gymnasium and I spoke following. And she said she would not ask me to say anything more than I did say. She told them out there they must stop this work.
They went to her and told her, "Sister White, it cannot be stopped. It will be ruin; it will be ruin." So they insisted on going on. But Elder Haskell said to me, "They have come to the end of their rope, and now they are coming up to Battle Creek to try to get some new point against you. I want to see you and put you on your guard."
That is the solemn truth Brother Amadon.
So Sister White came back and I came. They came before I did and they got hold of something that changed her mind again--got her to believe I was a forger. They got hold of something and took it to her.
Do you know Martha Byington?
Amadon: I think I do.
Dr. Kellogg: She was with her. And Mrs. L. M. Hall, do you know her? They were with Sister White at that time, and they knew just what was done. These men came to her with my name signed to a document; my signature was there, and I had denied in writing that I had ever signed that document. And I never did sign it. And yet my own signature was there. They told her that I denied having signed that, that I had forged it. It was a $1000 note that I had "forged," and they got things mixed up so that she thought I had forged $50,000, and they found out at last that the bonds were fraudulent--they found out all about it. And although she came here on purpose to see me, sent word to me to St. Louis to meet her, when I got here she would not talk to me at all, would not speak to me, only to say "How do you do?" She told several people it had been discovered at last I was a forger and had defrauded, and the bonds were fraudulent. And she stuck to it and believes it until this day.
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Excerpt # 13 of the Interview with Dr. Kellogg
Dr. Kellogg: The truth of the matter was this. I had signed a note in blank, "J. H. Kellogg, President," to be used for the International Medical Missionary and Benevolent Association, to be used for them. But in my absence Dr. Thomason, who was secretary, by mistake had filled out above my name, "Mexican Medical and Benevolent Association, instead of "International Medical Missionary and Benevolent Association," in renewing a note that had come back. I was authorized to sign notes for the Mexican Association. But I was only an agent--I was not president. So the forgery was in that termination, "President," you see.
Now I paid that note. The money was sent down there to Mexico. I never had misappropriated the money. That was done and I did not know it. I could not explain it because I did not know anything about it. I signed it to be used for the International Association, but the note was sent out during my absence for the Mexican Medical and Benevolent Association. So when they wrote me about it, I told them I never signed such a note because I was agent, you know, and this was signed as president, and I told them I was not president. I had never signed it.
You see, I signed the first note all right, but in my absence the note came back to be renewed, and Dr. Thomason wrote that on. Miss Steinel who kept the books was away from home. When she got back, Judge Arthur wrote out a full explanation and sent it down to Elder Daniells and those men, but they never corrected it. So Sister White still labors under the impression.
At the last General Conference, Sister White made the statement that I was a forger, and Daniells got a shorthand report of that. And when I was in Europe last spring, I found he had been showing it all around over Europe to prove that I was a forger, and that the Lord had said it.
You see, I cannot have any particular sympathy with that sort of doings, so I am perfectly frank to tell you that if you endorse that action on the part of the General Conference Committee, and if this church endorses the campaign of the General Conference on behalf of fraud, deceit and misrepresentation, when they get ready to drop my name from the book I shall accept it as a release that the Lord has given me from any further responsibility in that thing. But I shall never ask for my name to be dropped from your church book because I believe the truth that I always have believed, and I am standing for the same things that I always have stood for, and I don't believe in the policies that are being carried on at all.
It is a wicked and unchristian and unbiblical method of procedure. I have never been asked to appear before the church to answer to any charges at all. Yet I am condemned everywhere. Certainly I ought to be turned out of the church if I have committed robberies, if I am doing those things. But it should be pointed out wherein I have done these things, and I should be given opportunity to make restitution. I am ready to make restitution if the things are pointed out to me. I am ready to make restitution.
Dr. Kellogg: The truth of the matter was this. I had signed a note in blank, "J. H. Kellogg, President," to be used for the International Medical Missionary and Benevolent Association, to be used for them. But in my absence Dr. Thomason, who was secretary, by mistake had filled out above my name, "Mexican Medical and Benevolent Association, instead of "International Medical Missionary and Benevolent Association," in renewing a note that had come back. I was authorized to sign notes for the Mexican Association. But I was only an agent--I was not president. So the forgery was in that termination, "President," you see.
Now I paid that note. The money was sent down there to Mexico. I never had misappropriated the money. That was done and I did not know it. I could not explain it because I did not know anything about it. I signed it to be used for the International Association, but the note was sent out during my absence for the Mexican Medical and Benevolent Association. So when they wrote me about it, I told them I never signed such a note because I was agent, you know, and this was signed as president, and I told them I was not president. I had never signed it.
You see, I signed the first note all right, but in my absence the note came back to be renewed, and Dr. Thomason wrote that on. Miss Steinel who kept the books was away from home. When she got back, Judge Arthur wrote out a full explanation and sent it down to Elder Daniells and those men, but they never corrected it. So Sister White still labors under the impression.
At the last General Conference, Sister White made the statement that I was a forger, and Daniells got a shorthand report of that. And when I was in Europe last spring, I found he had been showing it all around over Europe to prove that I was a forger, and that the Lord had said it.
You see, I cannot have any particular sympathy with that sort of doings, so I am perfectly frank to tell you that if you endorse that action on the part of the General Conference Committee, and if this church endorses the campaign of the General Conference on behalf of fraud, deceit and misrepresentation, when they get ready to drop my name from the book I shall accept it as a release that the Lord has given me from any further responsibility in that thing. But I shall never ask for my name to be dropped from your church book because I believe the truth that I always have believed, and I am standing for the same things that I always have stood for, and I don't believe in the policies that are being carried on at all.
It is a wicked and unchristian and unbiblical method of procedure. I have never been asked to appear before the church to answer to any charges at all. Yet I am condemned everywhere. Certainly I ought to be turned out of the church if I have committed robberies, if I am doing those things. But it should be pointed out wherein I have done these things, and I should be given opportunity to make restitution. I am ready to make restitution if the things are pointed out to me. I am ready to make restitution.
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Excerpt # 14 od the Interview with Dr. Kellogg
Dr. Kellogg: Now, then, about Dr. Stewart--I was ready to correct the book, ready to box it up, to suppress it, to do anything in the interests of peace. And I did do it just as far as I could, and am doing it still. Elder Haskell said to me, "I believe that their policy is to badger you, to pester you, until you do something as an outbreak, and they can make a pretense against you. Now," he said, "just be patient."
Now, I have not had any desire to do anything else. I have had no desire to be anything else but patient. But sometimes in the midst of worry, anxiety and hard work, it has been pretty hard to bear all these false reports going about the country--to see my friends alienated and being made to believe things that were absolutely false. It has been pretty hard to bear. But I have tried to bear it with as much Christian grace as the Lord has given me, and I have prayed every day for the Lord to help me to learn from this experience the lessons I ought to learn.
With reference to Dr. Stewart and those documents Daniells circulated when he came here and undertook to crush us--among other things was this statement: that I had never allowed my colleagues to read the things that had been sent to me, the Testimonies. That I had received the testimonies and suppressed them and not allowed my colleagues to read them. Now, Brother Amadon, before the Lord, I am obliged to tell you that although Sister White wrote that, it is not the truth. It is not the truth, although it is over her signature. It is absolutely untrue. My colleagues have seen everything I have ever received from her, private letters and all, the whole business. Certainly I have never held back one single line that she has written me, never in the world.
Dr. Paulson, you know, got up that little book, Healthful Living, and Dr. Kress. Away back there we kept all the documents from Sister White in a certain drawer without any lock or key. I kept all my documents in that drawer. And when Dr. Paulson got ready to get that book out I said to him, "Here are all the things I ever received from Sister White, and you just help yourself." He went through them all. Dr. Kress had access to them; Dr. Rand and my colleagues always did. When I got a letter from Sister White, I laid it before the Board. There were a few things I did not always put in their hands--I read them.
The only things in the world I never read to them were things she said about me complimentary, and I did not want to read them, did not feel I deserved the compliments, and I didn't read them. Sister White said some things about my being the Lord's physician. You never heard me making any use of that. I never banked on that--never did. I never believed the Lord made me His doctor any more than any other honest Christian man who was trying to do his best. I don't believe the Lord is arbitrary in that way. I think any honest Christian doctor who is trying to do something to help somebody who is in trouble and suffering, who looks up to the Lord and asks Him to help him, He will help him, and I don't believe the Lord ever helped me in any different way than that or that He ever will. And I hope He will keep helping me so long as I appeal to Him for help when I honestly come to Him, appeal to Him.
Dr. Kellogg: Now, then, about Dr. Stewart--I was ready to correct the book, ready to box it up, to suppress it, to do anything in the interests of peace. And I did do it just as far as I could, and am doing it still. Elder Haskell said to me, "I believe that their policy is to badger you, to pester you, until you do something as an outbreak, and they can make a pretense against you. Now," he said, "just be patient."
Now, I have not had any desire to do anything else. I have had no desire to be anything else but patient. But sometimes in the midst of worry, anxiety and hard work, it has been pretty hard to bear all these false reports going about the country--to see my friends alienated and being made to believe things that were absolutely false. It has been pretty hard to bear. But I have tried to bear it with as much Christian grace as the Lord has given me, and I have prayed every day for the Lord to help me to learn from this experience the lessons I ought to learn.
With reference to Dr. Stewart and those documents Daniells circulated when he came here and undertook to crush us--among other things was this statement: that I had never allowed my colleagues to read the things that had been sent to me, the Testimonies. That I had received the testimonies and suppressed them and not allowed my colleagues to read them. Now, Brother Amadon, before the Lord, I am obliged to tell you that although Sister White wrote that, it is not the truth. It is not the truth, although it is over her signature. It is absolutely untrue. My colleagues have seen everything I have ever received from her, private letters and all, the whole business. Certainly I have never held back one single line that she has written me, never in the world.
Dr. Paulson, you know, got up that little book, Healthful Living, and Dr. Kress. Away back there we kept all the documents from Sister White in a certain drawer without any lock or key. I kept all my documents in that drawer. And when Dr. Paulson got ready to get that book out I said to him, "Here are all the things I ever received from Sister White, and you just help yourself." He went through them all. Dr. Kress had access to them; Dr. Rand and my colleagues always did. When I got a letter from Sister White, I laid it before the Board. There were a few things I did not always put in their hands--I read them.
The only things in the world I never read to them were things she said about me complimentary, and I did not want to read them, did not feel I deserved the compliments, and I didn't read them. Sister White said some things about my being the Lord's physician. You never heard me making any use of that. I never banked on that--never did. I never believed the Lord made me His doctor any more than any other honest Christian man who was trying to do his best. I don't believe the Lord is arbitrary in that way. I think any honest Christian doctor who is trying to do something to help somebody who is in trouble and suffering, who looks up to the Lord and asks Him to help him, He will help him, and I don't believe the Lord ever helped me in any different way than that or that He ever will. And I hope He will keep helping me so long as I appeal to Him for help when I honestly come to Him, appeal to Him.
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Amadon: I hate to hear you say that--that you don't believe there was a time when you were the Lord's physician in a sense in which others are not.
Dr. Kellogg: I cannot believe that I ever was the Lord's doctor in any different sense from any Christian doctor that undertakes to do his best for suffering human beings is the Lord's doctor. I want to say to you that I never made any use of that thing in order to bolster myself up, and you know it.
Amadon: That's all right Doctor, that's all right.
Dr. Kellogg: Because I never thought the Lord would treat me any different from any other honest man or that I had an official position that compelled the Lord to help me in any other way than He would help any other man.
Amadon: I believe it anyhow.
Bourdeau: I believe the Lord sent His angel to guide your hand.
Dr. Kellogg: I know the Lord helps me in operations, and I know He helps me now, for I get into awful troubles, and I appeal to the Lord to help, and I see He does help me. And I could tell you some things that would surprise you, but because you haven't had experience in those things --to see the trouble I get into and how the Lord helps me out.
A:I heard you tell that away back years ago when I used to stop at the institution every day most.
Dr. Kellogg: I cannot believe that I ever was the Lord's doctor in any different sense from any Christian doctor that undertakes to do his best for suffering human beings is the Lord's doctor. I want to say to you that I never made any use of that thing in order to bolster myself up, and you know it.
Amadon: That's all right Doctor, that's all right.
Dr. Kellogg: Because I never thought the Lord would treat me any different from any other honest man or that I had an official position that compelled the Lord to help me in any other way than He would help any other man.
Amadon: I believe it anyhow.
Bourdeau: I believe the Lord sent His angel to guide your hand.
Dr. Kellogg: I know the Lord helps me in operations, and I know He helps me now, for I get into awful troubles, and I appeal to the Lord to help, and I see He does help me. And I could tell you some things that would surprise you, but because you haven't had experience in those things --to see the trouble I get into and how the Lord helps me out.
A:I heard you tell that away back years ago when I used to stop at the institution every day most.
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Excerpt # 15 of the Interview with Dr. Kellogg
Dr. Kellogg: I will tell you of one little case. Three or four days ago I met a man in my office who had been backsliding, and I told him the trouble was he had lost his hold on the Lord, was not reading his Bible, and he was not praying. He said, "I prayed this morning." I told him I was glad he did. I said, "You cannot follow good resolutions unless you earnestly seek the Lord and pray; you cannot possibly get on without religion." And I told him the truth, that I had been down on my knees three times that day earnestly praying the Lord to help me in my difficulties, and I would not know how to get along any other way. And the Lord helped me.
I will tell you a case. We had here a little while ago the wife of a most important man. These men sitting here do not know anything about this. But I am perfectly willing they should hear about it. It was the wife of a Doctor of Divinity, Dr. Greegan, the Secretary of the American Board of Foreign Missions, one of the most prominent missionary men in the world, one of the most prominent Boards in the world--the American Board. He brought his wife here, and they had declined to operate on her in New York, and it was a very bad case. The New York surgeons had refused to operate on her two years before. She was getting steadily worse, and she was suffering such pain, something had to be done. I knew it was a very serious case. Dr. Greegan knew it, too. He and Elder Tenney had a little prayer meeting there in the patient's room the day before the operation. They asked me to come, but I had an engagement so I really could not come--so I declined.
Now when I came to go up to operations, I went down to this patient's room and got down on my knees at the foot of the bed and earnestly asked the Lord to help us and to help me. When we got into the operating room, we prayed again up there that the Lord would help us to do the thing right, as we always do. We never do an operation in the world without doing it. I never had an operating day in my life that we did not pray that the Lord would help us in operations. I would not dare to do it. Now when we got into that operation, I found it one of the most terrible operations I ever had in my life--an enormous tumor with the intestines grown all over it. I had to tear them off. When we got it laid open, there was a great, raw, cut surface, bleeding from a hundred points. Dr. Case was there at the operation and he will remember how we put in hot sponges and they did not do any good. It was a terribly trying time, and I was afraid that woman would die right there, and I prayed again. I was afraid she would die, and it was an awful case. And I know I hadn't wisdom to know what to do with that case.
I put the forceps on the arteries, but they would not hold, put a ligature in and it pulled out, and the bleeding was worse than before. It was appalling. I prayed, and the instant after I prayed, I saw that thing shut right up like that, and those great broad surfaces there, bleeding surfaces, closed together like that. I don't think an angel did that thing. I think the assistant who was holding the retractor allowed the retractor to move, or it slipped--released something so it came up. All I had to do then was to run a ligature along the top of that line and bring those bleeding surfaces together, and that stopped it. And that woman made a perfect recovery. That was the thing that saved her life. If I had not paused to pray I should have done something else and would not have been in a state of mind to have recognized the thing that needed to be done, but the thing came together. If I had been looking off somewhere else when that happened, instead of looking there, I would not have gotten the right thought.
I know the Lord gave me that thought to save the woman's life. He did it for that patient's sake, not for my sake because I was any better than anybody else. Any honest doctor who was standing there trying to save a person's life and felt his own helplessness, who would look up to the great Father to help him would get help. I have to believe that thing.
Amadon: Oh, yes, I don't question that.
Dr. Kellogg: Now the fact that the Lord does help us, notwithstanding all our mistakes and our blunders and our unworthiness--for there is plenty of it-- eads me to obey and struggle on here in spite of all the difficulties we have had, trying to do just what we always have been doing. And with all this storm raging against us, we are still trying to stand where we have stood.
Dr. Kellogg: I will tell you of one little case. Three or four days ago I met a man in my office who had been backsliding, and I told him the trouble was he had lost his hold on the Lord, was not reading his Bible, and he was not praying. He said, "I prayed this morning." I told him I was glad he did. I said, "You cannot follow good resolutions unless you earnestly seek the Lord and pray; you cannot possibly get on without religion." And I told him the truth, that I had been down on my knees three times that day earnestly praying the Lord to help me in my difficulties, and I would not know how to get along any other way. And the Lord helped me.
I will tell you a case. We had here a little while ago the wife of a most important man. These men sitting here do not know anything about this. But I am perfectly willing they should hear about it. It was the wife of a Doctor of Divinity, Dr. Greegan, the Secretary of the American Board of Foreign Missions, one of the most prominent missionary men in the world, one of the most prominent Boards in the world--the American Board. He brought his wife here, and they had declined to operate on her in New York, and it was a very bad case. The New York surgeons had refused to operate on her two years before. She was getting steadily worse, and she was suffering such pain, something had to be done. I knew it was a very serious case. Dr. Greegan knew it, too. He and Elder Tenney had a little prayer meeting there in the patient's room the day before the operation. They asked me to come, but I had an engagement so I really could not come--so I declined.
Now when I came to go up to operations, I went down to this patient's room and got down on my knees at the foot of the bed and earnestly asked the Lord to help us and to help me. When we got into the operating room, we prayed again up there that the Lord would help us to do the thing right, as we always do. We never do an operation in the world without doing it. I never had an operating day in my life that we did not pray that the Lord would help us in operations. I would not dare to do it. Now when we got into that operation, I found it one of the most terrible operations I ever had in my life--an enormous tumor with the intestines grown all over it. I had to tear them off. When we got it laid open, there was a great, raw, cut surface, bleeding from a hundred points. Dr. Case was there at the operation and he will remember how we put in hot sponges and they did not do any good. It was a terribly trying time, and I was afraid that woman would die right there, and I prayed again. I was afraid she would die, and it was an awful case. And I know I hadn't wisdom to know what to do with that case.
I put the forceps on the arteries, but they would not hold, put a ligature in and it pulled out, and the bleeding was worse than before. It was appalling. I prayed, and the instant after I prayed, I saw that thing shut right up like that, and those great broad surfaces there, bleeding surfaces, closed together like that. I don't think an angel did that thing. I think the assistant who was holding the retractor allowed the retractor to move, or it slipped--released something so it came up. All I had to do then was to run a ligature along the top of that line and bring those bleeding surfaces together, and that stopped it. And that woman made a perfect recovery. That was the thing that saved her life. If I had not paused to pray I should have done something else and would not have been in a state of mind to have recognized the thing that needed to be done, but the thing came together. If I had been looking off somewhere else when that happened, instead of looking there, I would not have gotten the right thought.
I know the Lord gave me that thought to save the woman's life. He did it for that patient's sake, not for my sake because I was any better than anybody else. Any honest doctor who was standing there trying to save a person's life and felt his own helplessness, who would look up to the great Father to help him would get help. I have to believe that thing.
Amadon: Oh, yes, I don't question that.
Dr. Kellogg: Now the fact that the Lord does help us, notwithstanding all our mistakes and our blunders and our unworthiness--for there is plenty of it-- eads me to obey and struggle on here in spite of all the difficulties we have had, trying to do just what we always have been doing. And with all this storm raging against us, we are still trying to stand where we have stood.
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Excerpt # 16 of the Interview with Dr. Kellogg
Dr. Kellogg: I want to tell you another thing you do not know about, a testimony I have from Sister White that she has not published and that none of them have published, that these men have frequently cut out large chunks of things that Sister White had written that put things in a light that was not the most favorable of them or did not suit their campaigns that way, that they felt at liberty to cut them out and so change the effect and the tenor of the whole thing, sending it out over Sister White's name. I happen to know that. And I think you know it, too. But I have got a testimony that is on record, and Sister White has got it, but they haven't printed it, and I don't think they will.
Sister White said--it was since these troubles began a long time after this thing started up, not so very long ago--she said, "I saw a boat out in the storm in the sea, and waves were rolling high, and there were men in the boat, and they pushed you overboard, and you were hanging onto the edge of the boat with your fingers, and they were beating you off."
Now that is exactly what they have tried to do.
I propose to hang onto all the truth that I know, and all that I have ever known, and keep right straight along the track I have been traveling all the years, just as near as I can and let these men go on and do their wicked work and let the whole denomination condemn me and cast me out if they want. When they get into such a situation that they want to do that, it will be perfectly agreeable to me to have them do it.
I want to tell you, it would clear up the situation tremendously if Sister White would publish everything she has ever sent to me and everything I have ever sent to her. She is at liberty to do it. And Dr. Stewart and Dr. Harris came to me and I told them the same thing. They said, "Would you be willing to let us look over the things she has sent to you?" I said "You go up there, to my librarian, Miss Hoenes, there. They are all there in her charge. I have nothing private put away, never have had. They are and always have been in the charge of my librarian there, and you have, as I said access to them. I have never secreted them or locked them up at all. They are there. You tell her you want to see them, and she will let you see them." So they came up here and looked them over.
I suppose that letter [by Dr. Stewart]--part of it--is the result of going through those documents, and I have nothing more to do with it than that. And I did it because Sister White had written that I have suppressed things, and that is not the truth. So they came up. I was away from home when that letter was prepared. When I got home, Dr. Stewart brought it to me and read it to me. I said, "Dr. Stewart, that is a very smart document. But anybody reading that would say that Sister White must be a very mean, contemptible kind of woman. Don't you see they would?" "Well, yes, I think they would." "Now," I said, "is she that kind of woman? Do you think she is that kind of woman?" "Why no, of course I don't." "Then," I said, "you want to be very careful you don't ever print that. And if you ever let that go out of your hands at all, you should certainly add a statement to it that you believe Mrs. White was a woman God had inspired and led, and that these things were only flaws that you had found, but that the main effort and tenor of her life had been wonderfully good and helpful, that she had stood for principles that were straight and right, and that her work had been a good work, and that you believed in that thing. But," I said, "you ought never to publish such a thing; such a thing ought never to be circulated." And he promised me he never would publish it, and I don't believe he ever will.
But you see this is what has got Dr. Stewart into a peculiar state of mind about it. He sent Sister White herself a copy of it. Sister White wrote to him a personal letter and asked him to write to her and tell her all his objections. So he prepared it and sent it to Will. He waited some time and got no reply, no notice of it. Now through that fact that he had sent it to Will, Elder Daniells got hold of it; so Elder Daniells came out before the conference down there at the dedication of the Washington Sanitarium and stated publicly there that such a document had been prepared for publication and was going to be published and went on stating about it, and he set a whole lot of people coming to Dr. Stewart to see it, to know about it. And they kept coming to him, and he let them see it because Elder Daniells had made such misrepresentations about it that he thought it was right to let them see it. But they would not have seen it or known about it if it had not been that Elder Daniells had it; so he had to in self-defense let them see it.
Dr. Kellogg: I want to tell you another thing you do not know about, a testimony I have from Sister White that she has not published and that none of them have published, that these men have frequently cut out large chunks of things that Sister White had written that put things in a light that was not the most favorable of them or did not suit their campaigns that way, that they felt at liberty to cut them out and so change the effect and the tenor of the whole thing, sending it out over Sister White's name. I happen to know that. And I think you know it, too. But I have got a testimony that is on record, and Sister White has got it, but they haven't printed it, and I don't think they will.
Sister White said--it was since these troubles began a long time after this thing started up, not so very long ago--she said, "I saw a boat out in the storm in the sea, and waves were rolling high, and there were men in the boat, and they pushed you overboard, and you were hanging onto the edge of the boat with your fingers, and they were beating you off."
Now that is exactly what they have tried to do.
I propose to hang onto all the truth that I know, and all that I have ever known, and keep right straight along the track I have been traveling all the years, just as near as I can and let these men go on and do their wicked work and let the whole denomination condemn me and cast me out if they want. When they get into such a situation that they want to do that, it will be perfectly agreeable to me to have them do it.
I want to tell you, it would clear up the situation tremendously if Sister White would publish everything she has ever sent to me and everything I have ever sent to her. She is at liberty to do it. And Dr. Stewart and Dr. Harris came to me and I told them the same thing. They said, "Would you be willing to let us look over the things she has sent to you?" I said "You go up there, to my librarian, Miss Hoenes, there. They are all there in her charge. I have nothing private put away, never have had. They are and always have been in the charge of my librarian there, and you have, as I said access to them. I have never secreted them or locked them up at all. They are there. You tell her you want to see them, and she will let you see them." So they came up here and looked them over.
I suppose that letter [by Dr. Stewart]--part of it--is the result of going through those documents, and I have nothing more to do with it than that. And I did it because Sister White had written that I have suppressed things, and that is not the truth. So they came up. I was away from home when that letter was prepared. When I got home, Dr. Stewart brought it to me and read it to me. I said, "Dr. Stewart, that is a very smart document. But anybody reading that would say that Sister White must be a very mean, contemptible kind of woman. Don't you see they would?" "Well, yes, I think they would." "Now," I said, "is she that kind of woman? Do you think she is that kind of woman?" "Why no, of course I don't." "Then," I said, "you want to be very careful you don't ever print that. And if you ever let that go out of your hands at all, you should certainly add a statement to it that you believe Mrs. White was a woman God had inspired and led, and that these things were only flaws that you had found, but that the main effort and tenor of her life had been wonderfully good and helpful, that she had stood for principles that were straight and right, and that her work had been a good work, and that you believed in that thing. But," I said, "you ought never to publish such a thing; such a thing ought never to be circulated." And he promised me he never would publish it, and I don't believe he ever will.
But you see this is what has got Dr. Stewart into a peculiar state of mind about it. He sent Sister White herself a copy of it. Sister White wrote to him a personal letter and asked him to write to her and tell her all his objections. So he prepared it and sent it to Will. He waited some time and got no reply, no notice of it. Now through that fact that he had sent it to Will, Elder Daniells got hold of it; so Elder Daniells came out before the conference down there at the dedication of the Washington Sanitarium and stated publicly there that such a document had been prepared for publication and was going to be published and went on stating about it, and he set a whole lot of people coming to Dr. Stewart to see it, to know about it. And they kept coming to him, and he let them see it because Elder Daniells had made such misrepresentations about it that he thought it was right to let them see it. But they would not have seen it or known about it if it had not been that Elder Daniells had it; so he had to in self-defense let them see it.
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Excertp # 17 of the Interview with Dr. Kellogg
Dr. Kellogg: Another thing I ought to say that these men have gone on, Daniells and other men, to such lengths in the frauds that are being practiced and have been practiced in the deceit and the untruths. They have become so patent that my colleagues have lost confidence in them. Some of these have not been connected with this movement as long as I have, and they cannot understand that the truth and men are two entirely different things; that the truth is one thing and the men and the conduct of men is another thing.
I have written Sister White repeatedly during all this controversy; I have written her every little while--"Sister White, don't be alarmed at the statements that have been made to you; don't believe the reports that are being sent to you about my attitude towards you. You have been my friend all my life, and I am your friend and am going to remain so no matter what your attitude is, what you may say about me and what you do--I am not going to take up any campaign against you, for you have been my friend, the best friend I ever had, and I remain there just that way and shall stand there notwithstanding."
I have maintained that attitude, and I propose to keep that attitude. I recognize the fact that Sister White has been a messenger of truth to the world.
I do not believe in her infallibility and never did. I told her eight years ago to her face that some of the things she has sent to me as testimonies were not the truth, that they were not in harmony with the facts, and she herself found it out. I have a letter from her in which she explains how she came to send me some things. She charged me with things I never had done at all, and I got a letter from her in which she explains that she thought I had done them--she drew an inference that I had, and she was worried about it. I never made a public matter of that thing. I held that thing in my private drawer, in my own heart, for years and years and never should have made it public if these folks had not begun a campaign against me. And I have not made it public and am not going to do it. Just think of it--a man who has got as much business as I have, to pursue a feeble old lady, to try to show up that she is a fraud when she is not a fraud, to try to show up that she is dishonorable and really an immoral woman, when I know she is not. Anybody that knows anything about Sister White's career knows that she has been a woman who has worked for truth and righteousness, and if you can find a flaw here and there or some plagiarism here and there, that is a mistake and a blunder and a slip and never ought to have been done; but now that does not invalidate the good that she has done, and I don't feel that I want my name connected with anything that does that thing.
I was tempted down at Oakland [1903] to get up in the General Conference there and tell them the whole truth about the whole business, but I made up my mind I would not do it. I said, "If I do that, it will just destroy all the foundation some people have whose faith is based on this thing. If I should tell the weak spots they would throw away the whole thing." I can see the weak spots and still hang onto the strong ones. I propose to do that thing and not to throw a stumbling block in anyone's way. I got down on my knees and prayed to the Lord to help me to hold me back from doing any such thing.
I have gotten to the point where I see that the Lord takes care of me and my work, and we are going on in spite of all these men are doing. So I am satisfied the Lord saves our work. It is the only thing I ask Him to do.
Dr. Kellogg: Another thing I ought to say that these men have gone on, Daniells and other men, to such lengths in the frauds that are being practiced and have been practiced in the deceit and the untruths. They have become so patent that my colleagues have lost confidence in them. Some of these have not been connected with this movement as long as I have, and they cannot understand that the truth and men are two entirely different things; that the truth is one thing and the men and the conduct of men is another thing.
I have written Sister White repeatedly during all this controversy; I have written her every little while--"Sister White, don't be alarmed at the statements that have been made to you; don't believe the reports that are being sent to you about my attitude towards you. You have been my friend all my life, and I am your friend and am going to remain so no matter what your attitude is, what you may say about me and what you do--I am not going to take up any campaign against you, for you have been my friend, the best friend I ever had, and I remain there just that way and shall stand there notwithstanding."
I have maintained that attitude, and I propose to keep that attitude. I recognize the fact that Sister White has been a messenger of truth to the world.
I do not believe in her infallibility and never did. I told her eight years ago to her face that some of the things she has sent to me as testimonies were not the truth, that they were not in harmony with the facts, and she herself found it out. I have a letter from her in which she explains how she came to send me some things. She charged me with things I never had done at all, and I got a letter from her in which she explains that she thought I had done them--she drew an inference that I had, and she was worried about it. I never made a public matter of that thing. I held that thing in my private drawer, in my own heart, for years and years and never should have made it public if these folks had not begun a campaign against me. And I have not made it public and am not going to do it. Just think of it--a man who has got as much business as I have, to pursue a feeble old lady, to try to show up that she is a fraud when she is not a fraud, to try to show up that she is dishonorable and really an immoral woman, when I know she is not. Anybody that knows anything about Sister White's career knows that she has been a woman who has worked for truth and righteousness, and if you can find a flaw here and there or some plagiarism here and there, that is a mistake and a blunder and a slip and never ought to have been done; but now that does not invalidate the good that she has done, and I don't feel that I want my name connected with anything that does that thing.
I was tempted down at Oakland [1903] to get up in the General Conference there and tell them the whole truth about the whole business, but I made up my mind I would not do it. I said, "If I do that, it will just destroy all the foundation some people have whose faith is based on this thing. If I should tell the weak spots they would throw away the whole thing." I can see the weak spots and still hang onto the strong ones. I propose to do that thing and not to throw a stumbling block in anyone's way. I got down on my knees and prayed to the Lord to help me to hold me back from doing any such thing.
I have gotten to the point where I see that the Lord takes care of me and my work, and we are going on in spite of all these men are doing. So I am satisfied the Lord saves our work. It is the only thing I ask Him to do.
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Excerpt # 18 of the Interview with Dr. Kellogg
Bourdeau: It has never been my disposition to crush you down or crush the Sanitarium down in anything. And I don't know as I ever thought that our leading brethren had that in view.
Dr. Kellogg: That very thing is the ultimate purpose of the whole thing. If you had been present in the meeting when this thing started, you would have heard Elder Daniells on his feet say, "I am not satisfied; Dr. Kellogg's imperious will must be broken." That was when we were trying to have peace. That was when he first started this campaign. He started out with that spirit, and I arose and I said very quietly, "That will be when I am dead." They have been carrying on their campaign ever since. You can find plenty of people who were present at that meeting and heard that speech. That was at the very start of this whole thing.
That is what has kept it going--that determination to smash something, to smash somebody. And if it had not been for that thing, we would have settled all these troubles a long time ago. But the thing has gone so far I haven't any idea it ever will be settled.
We have simply got to stand by our guns and go on and do our duty the best we can, working for our fellow men, trying to do right, encouraging Christian activity in every way we have opportunity, clinging to all the truth we know, and studying our Bibles. I have been studying my Bible a good deal more in the last two or three years than ever before in that length of time, and the Bible is very dear to me. I never close my eyes without reading a chapter in the Bible at night, and we study the Bible in our home here a good deal more than we ever did before. We are trying to promote Bible study at the Sanitarium; we are not introducing heresy there, but simply studying the Scripture lessons to get help for Christian living, for holding up the moral standard that must be held up. I do not see anything else but to go ahead on that platform and the Seventh-day Adventist denomination I have been working for all my life.
I went into the office when I was a small boy--when I was twelve years old. Brother Amadon was there, and we were good friends, and he always helped me, was kind to me, and I learned to love him very much, because we were always good friends and considerate. I have been working for the upbuilding of the interests of this denomination, and I was willing to keep on working the balance of my life if they would let me. But they proposed to separate from our work and they did it--not because they wanted to get rid of the work, but simply to bring us into hard places where we could not go.
Away back in November 1902, five years ago, Elder Daniells demanded of me that the Sanitarium should be surrendered to the General Conference. I said, "I don't see any way that can be done. It is a private corporation, and I don't see any reason why it should be changed. It will go right on as it is, always has been going. It is working for the interests of the denomination, and it will keep right on as it always has done, and I don't see any need of change."
And he became very angry. It was at a private conference of our Board and the General Conference Committee. He became very angry, and he said, "I am done with this thing. I will have no more of this. This is the end." And he arose and left the room. Spicer said, "You will find you cannot carry on the Sanitarium without the General Conference Committee." I said, "Whatever the Lord wants us to do we will do." He said, "You will find you cannot get the young people." I said, "If the Lord has got a young man somewhere He wants to come to the Sanitarium, He will see that he gets there." So we have been going on. That was the end of our work.
Bourdeau: It has never been my disposition to crush you down or crush the Sanitarium down in anything. And I don't know as I ever thought that our leading brethren had that in view.
Dr. Kellogg: That very thing is the ultimate purpose of the whole thing. If you had been present in the meeting when this thing started, you would have heard Elder Daniells on his feet say, "I am not satisfied; Dr. Kellogg's imperious will must be broken." That was when we were trying to have peace. That was when he first started this campaign. He started out with that spirit, and I arose and I said very quietly, "That will be when I am dead." They have been carrying on their campaign ever since. You can find plenty of people who were present at that meeting and heard that speech. That was at the very start of this whole thing.
That is what has kept it going--that determination to smash something, to smash somebody. And if it had not been for that thing, we would have settled all these troubles a long time ago. But the thing has gone so far I haven't any idea it ever will be settled.
We have simply got to stand by our guns and go on and do our duty the best we can, working for our fellow men, trying to do right, encouraging Christian activity in every way we have opportunity, clinging to all the truth we know, and studying our Bibles. I have been studying my Bible a good deal more in the last two or three years than ever before in that length of time, and the Bible is very dear to me. I never close my eyes without reading a chapter in the Bible at night, and we study the Bible in our home here a good deal more than we ever did before. We are trying to promote Bible study at the Sanitarium; we are not introducing heresy there, but simply studying the Scripture lessons to get help for Christian living, for holding up the moral standard that must be held up. I do not see anything else but to go ahead on that platform and the Seventh-day Adventist denomination I have been working for all my life.
I went into the office when I was a small boy--when I was twelve years old. Brother Amadon was there, and we were good friends, and he always helped me, was kind to me, and I learned to love him very much, because we were always good friends and considerate. I have been working for the upbuilding of the interests of this denomination, and I was willing to keep on working the balance of my life if they would let me. But they proposed to separate from our work and they did it--not because they wanted to get rid of the work, but simply to bring us into hard places where we could not go.
Away back in November 1902, five years ago, Elder Daniells demanded of me that the Sanitarium should be surrendered to the General Conference. I said, "I don't see any way that can be done. It is a private corporation, and I don't see any reason why it should be changed. It will go right on as it is, always has been going. It is working for the interests of the denomination, and it will keep right on as it always has done, and I don't see any need of change."
And he became very angry. It was at a private conference of our Board and the General Conference Committee. He became very angry, and he said, "I am done with this thing. I will have no more of this. This is the end." And he arose and left the room. Spicer said, "You will find you cannot carry on the Sanitarium without the General Conference Committee." I said, "Whatever the Lord wants us to do we will do." He said, "You will find you cannot get the young people." I said, "If the Lord has got a young man somewhere He wants to come to the Sanitarium, He will see that he gets there." So we have been going on. That was the end of our work.
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Excerpt # 19 of the Interview with Dr. Kellogg
Dr. Kellogg: Afterwards we tried to make reconciliation with them, told them we would do anything. But they immediately began undermining the work. They were not square, and I sent word to Prof. Prescott--this was after the reconciliation at the Tabernacle--I sent word to Prof. Prescott and to Eld. Daniells, and I said to Prof. Prescott, "Now then, before you leave this town, we ought to sit down together and try to find a basis for harmony. We ought to sit down like men with our official coats off, like brethren together, to try to find some foundation for harmony."
He never replied to my note even. I asked him at Washington why he did not reply to my note. Oh, he did, sometime later, after he left town. He said, "If at any time you wish to consult me in my official capacity, I shall be glad to meet you." I asked him why he did not treat me as I asked him to do, and he said, "I tried to get Elder Daniells to do it several times, but he would not."
While we have sought earnestly for harmony for a long time, and are willing to surrender anything and to do anything, these men have kept before the people the idea that we were in rebellion. We were not. They are in rebellion against us. I haven't the slightest expectation of any reconciliation. You cannot work with men who won't work with you. We have nothing to do but to go on and fulfill our mission. The Lord has given us our work to do, and we are going to go right on about the business the best we can and co-operate with everybody we can co-operate with. We do not propose to fight these brethren or Sister White or anybody else. I won't allow myself or the Sanitarium to be engaged in any such thing. We are not going to have any schism; we are not going to do anything of the kind. I will have nothing at all to do with any such thing and all our folks know it.
Bourdeau: You haven't thought of re-organizing, then?
Dr. Kellogg: We would not think of such a thing. For pity's sake, haven't we had enough organization of this kind? When you have got an organization that can turn itself into a threshing machine or a destructive engine, for pity's sake why do you want to get into anything more of that kind?
Dr. Kellogg: Afterwards we tried to make reconciliation with them, told them we would do anything. But they immediately began undermining the work. They were not square, and I sent word to Prof. Prescott--this was after the reconciliation at the Tabernacle--I sent word to Prof. Prescott and to Eld. Daniells, and I said to Prof. Prescott, "Now then, before you leave this town, we ought to sit down together and try to find a basis for harmony. We ought to sit down like men with our official coats off, like brethren together, to try to find some foundation for harmony."
He never replied to my note even. I asked him at Washington why he did not reply to my note. Oh, he did, sometime later, after he left town. He said, "If at any time you wish to consult me in my official capacity, I shall be glad to meet you." I asked him why he did not treat me as I asked him to do, and he said, "I tried to get Elder Daniells to do it several times, but he would not."
While we have sought earnestly for harmony for a long time, and are willing to surrender anything and to do anything, these men have kept before the people the idea that we were in rebellion. We were not. They are in rebellion against us. I haven't the slightest expectation of any reconciliation. You cannot work with men who won't work with you. We have nothing to do but to go on and fulfill our mission. The Lord has given us our work to do, and we are going to go right on about the business the best we can and co-operate with everybody we can co-operate with. We do not propose to fight these brethren or Sister White or anybody else. I won't allow myself or the Sanitarium to be engaged in any such thing. We are not going to have any schism; we are not going to do anything of the kind. I will have nothing at all to do with any such thing and all our folks know it.
Bourdeau: You haven't thought of re-organizing, then?
Dr. Kellogg: We would not think of such a thing. For pity's sake, haven't we had enough organization of this kind? When you have got an organization that can turn itself into a threshing machine or a destructive engine, for pity's sake why do you want to get into anything more of that kind?
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Castaway57
Born Twice
Looks like you are following in Kellog's steps. And so yes; history does repeat. But the Adventist Church has not been "condemned" by God. Only by malcontents such as yourself do we hear the condemnations.
God's last word is never punishment. It is always mercy and forgiveness. This is especially true with the Adventist Church, and all other churches too.
You should stop fooling people here and pretending to be an Adventist. Adventists do not hold to very many of your teachings.
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Woody, you sound like a broken record, as usual.
The Lord will judge between you and me.
I know there is no use trying to reason with you.
Please stop harassing.
You have confirmed time and time again that you do not believe in freedom of speech.
I will not let you lord it over me.
sky
The Lord will judge between you and me.
I know there is no use trying to reason with you.
Please stop harassing.
You have confirmed time and time again that you do not believe in freedom of speech.
I will not let you lord it over me.
sky
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Near the end of the interview Dr. Kellogg said, concerning his book,
"All I wanted to explain in Living Temple was that this work that is going on in the man here is not going on by itself like a clock wound up, but it is the power of God and the Spirit of God that is carrying it on... I only wanted to show that the heart does not beat of its own motion but that it is the power of God that keeps it going."
There are those who say that obviously Ellen White did not see things the way that Dr. Kellogg viewed them. But as far as her writings are concerned this could not be any further from the truth and here is undeniable proof:
"The physical organism of man is under the supervision of God; but it is not like a clock, which is set in operation and must go of itself. The heart beats, pulse succeeds pulse, breath succeeds breath, but the entire being is under the supervision of God." Selected Messages, Vol.1,294.
"The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood. It presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God... By His Spirit He is everywhere present." Ministry of Healing,417.
"It is not because the mechanism once set on motion continues to act by its own inherent energy taht the pulse beats, and breath follows breath. Every breath, every pulsation of the heart, is an evidence of the care of Him in whom we live and move and have our being. From the smallest insect to man, every living creature is daily dependent upon His providence." Education,131.
Now if we stick to the statements above, both from Dr. Kellogg and Mrs. White, we cannot but come to the conclusion that they viewed these things in the same light.
Do you not see why one would get suspicious as to the source of all these statements that allegedly came from the pen of Mrs. White in regard to Dr. Kellogg's pantheistic views at the time when A.G. Daniells was determined to bring Dr. Kellogg to his terms, that he would rule over him or ruin him.(T.M.360) I believe that he was able to pull this off with the help of W.C. White who misinformed his mother by lying about Dr. Kellogg.
sky
"All I wanted to explain in Living Temple was that this work that is going on in the man here is not going on by itself like a clock wound up, but it is the power of God and the Spirit of God that is carrying it on... I only wanted to show that the heart does not beat of its own motion but that it is the power of God that keeps it going."
There are those who say that obviously Ellen White did not see things the way that Dr. Kellogg viewed them. But as far as her writings are concerned this could not be any further from the truth and here is undeniable proof:
"The physical organism of man is under the supervision of God; but it is not like a clock, which is set in operation and must go of itself. The heart beats, pulse succeeds pulse, breath succeeds breath, but the entire being is under the supervision of God." Selected Messages, Vol.1,294.
"The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood. It presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God... By His Spirit He is everywhere present." Ministry of Healing,417.
"It is not because the mechanism once set on motion continues to act by its own inherent energy taht the pulse beats, and breath follows breath. Every breath, every pulsation of the heart, is an evidence of the care of Him in whom we live and move and have our being. From the smallest insect to man, every living creature is daily dependent upon His providence." Education,131.
Now if we stick to the statements above, both from Dr. Kellogg and Mrs. White, we cannot but come to the conclusion that they viewed these things in the same light.
Do you not see why one would get suspicious as to the source of all these statements that allegedly came from the pen of Mrs. White in regard to Dr. Kellogg's pantheistic views at the time when A.G. Daniells was determined to bring Dr. Kellogg to his terms, that he would rule over him or ruin him.(T.M.360) I believe that he was able to pull this off with the help of W.C. White who misinformed his mother by lying about Dr. Kellogg.
sky
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Excerpt # 20 of the interveiew with Dr. Kellogg
Dr. Kellogg: When the Seventh-day Adventists put me out, I will not go into anything else. I will simply try to live in the fear of the Lord and do my duty. But I am not going to do anything in that direction. If this church wants to put me out, I shan't shed any tears about it at all. But I am not going to request to be put out. And I should like to be put on trial before I am put out; I would like to be tried for all the charges that are brought against me. That would be the Christian way to do it. But I haven't any expectation of any such fair treatment as that. But when I am put out I expect to be dropped on some sort of pretense. Whenever they get ready to do it, I shall accept that as a part of the Lord's dealing with me and go right on with my work just the same as before.
I know there are things that are not straight in the general management of this denomination. I know what fraud is being perpetrated right along, and I have no sympathy with that at all. I know people go to Sister White with some plan or scheme they want to carry through under her endorsement of it and stand up and say, "The Lord has spoken." And I know that is fraud, that that is taking unfair advantage of people's minds and of people's consciences, that it is fraud, that it is not a nice thing, and I have no sympathy with that thing, and I told W. C. White so long ago.
I am willing to tell you a little history, something that might be information to you. When the Great Controversy came out and the chapters of the history of the Waldenses, my attention was called to it by somebody right away. I could not help but know about it because there was the little book, Wiley's History of the Waldenses right there on the Review and Herald book counter, and here was The Great Controversy coming out with extracts from it that were scarcely disguised, some of them. There was disguise because words were changed; it would not have been proper to use quotation marks because words were changed in the paragraph so they were not exact quotations but at the same time were borrowed; and your explanation that it was simply an oversight won't hold, Brother Amadon, because it would not have been proper to put it in quotation marks when there were so many words and phrases changed. They were not quotations; they were borrowed. They were plagiarisms and not quotations. There is a difference between plagiarism and quotation.
Plagiarism is when you use a thing almost word for word, but not quite, but just enough different so it is not proper to call it a quotation. There is not a single one of those things that could have quotation marks about them. If you should put it in quotation marks, it would be telling an untruth because you would be representing this thing as being word for word from the author when it is not word for word from the author at all. So your explanation would not hold good on that thing.
Now I saw this thing there, my attention was called to it by somebody, and I sent for W.C. White right off, and I said,'I won't stand for this, Will White. Now I am standing right here, standing by your mother, by her writings, and I expect to, but if anybody comes to me with this thing I shall tell them straight out what I think about it--that it is an unwarrantable use of other people's writing, that you have no right to do it and that I am ashamed of it and I am sorry for it.'
He said, 'Don't you think that when Mother sees things, runs across things that agree with what she has seen in vision, that it is all right for her to adopt it?' I said, 'No, not without giving credit for it. It may be all right for her to quote it and make use of it. But she ought to put quotation marks on and tell where she got it and should say this was in harmony with what she had 'seen.'
She had no right to incorporate it with what she had 'seen' and make it appear that she had seen it first of all. The preface says this book has been written by special illumination, that she has gotten new light by special inspiration. So people read things here, read those paragraphs, and they say,'Here I saw that in Wiley's book.' And I said to Will,'That will condemn your book, detract from the book and the character of it, and it never will do. It is wrong.' I said,'I simply won't stand for it, and I want you to know that I won't, and that this thing ought to stop.'"
Dr. Kellogg: When the Seventh-day Adventists put me out, I will not go into anything else. I will simply try to live in the fear of the Lord and do my duty. But I am not going to do anything in that direction. If this church wants to put me out, I shan't shed any tears about it at all. But I am not going to request to be put out. And I should like to be put on trial before I am put out; I would like to be tried for all the charges that are brought against me. That would be the Christian way to do it. But I haven't any expectation of any such fair treatment as that. But when I am put out I expect to be dropped on some sort of pretense. Whenever they get ready to do it, I shall accept that as a part of the Lord's dealing with me and go right on with my work just the same as before.
I know there are things that are not straight in the general management of this denomination. I know what fraud is being perpetrated right along, and I have no sympathy with that at all. I know people go to Sister White with some plan or scheme they want to carry through under her endorsement of it and stand up and say, "The Lord has spoken." And I know that is fraud, that that is taking unfair advantage of people's minds and of people's consciences, that it is fraud, that it is not a nice thing, and I have no sympathy with that thing, and I told W. C. White so long ago.
I am willing to tell you a little history, something that might be information to you. When the Great Controversy came out and the chapters of the history of the Waldenses, my attention was called to it by somebody right away. I could not help but know about it because there was the little book, Wiley's History of the Waldenses right there on the Review and Herald book counter, and here was The Great Controversy coming out with extracts from it that were scarcely disguised, some of them. There was disguise because words were changed; it would not have been proper to use quotation marks because words were changed in the paragraph so they were not exact quotations but at the same time were borrowed; and your explanation that it was simply an oversight won't hold, Brother Amadon, because it would not have been proper to put it in quotation marks when there were so many words and phrases changed. They were not quotations; they were borrowed. They were plagiarisms and not quotations. There is a difference between plagiarism and quotation.
Plagiarism is when you use a thing almost word for word, but not quite, but just enough different so it is not proper to call it a quotation. There is not a single one of those things that could have quotation marks about them. If you should put it in quotation marks, it would be telling an untruth because you would be representing this thing as being word for word from the author when it is not word for word from the author at all. So your explanation would not hold good on that thing.
Now I saw this thing there, my attention was called to it by somebody, and I sent for W.C. White right off, and I said,'I won't stand for this, Will White. Now I am standing right here, standing by your mother, by her writings, and I expect to, but if anybody comes to me with this thing I shall tell them straight out what I think about it--that it is an unwarrantable use of other people's writing, that you have no right to do it and that I am ashamed of it and I am sorry for it.'
He said, 'Don't you think that when Mother sees things, runs across things that agree with what she has seen in vision, that it is all right for her to adopt it?' I said, 'No, not without giving credit for it. It may be all right for her to quote it and make use of it. But she ought to put quotation marks on and tell where she got it and should say this was in harmony with what she had 'seen.'
She had no right to incorporate it with what she had 'seen' and make it appear that she had seen it first of all. The preface says this book has been written by special illumination, that she has gotten new light by special inspiration. So people read things here, read those paragraphs, and they say,'Here I saw that in Wiley's book.' And I said to Will,'That will condemn your book, detract from the book and the character of it, and it never will do. It is wrong.' I said,'I simply won't stand for it, and I want you to know that I won't, and that this thing ought to stop.'"
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Excerpt # 21 of the interview with Dr.Kellogg
Dr. Kellogg: Now, then, they went on and sold that whole edition, at least 1500 copies of that thing that they had on hand, and they went on and sold that thing off with that thing there. They went right on selling it.
But they changed the preface in the next edition so as to give a little bit of a loophole to crawl out of, giving a little bit of a hint in it, in a very mild and rather in a hidden way, that the author had also profited by information obtained from various sources as well as from divine inspiration. That is my recollection. I remember I saw the correction and I didn't like it. I said,'That is only a crawl out, that is simply something put in so that the ordinary reader won't discover it at all but will see the larger statements there of special inspiration; so they will be fooled by that thing.' Then there came out other books. Your explanation did not help the case at all about other books, even Desire of Ages and How to Live?
I don't think you ever knew about How to Live with reference to things that were borrowed from Coles.
Amadon: I knew a large share of it was borrowed.
Dr. Kellogg: Those very things Mrs. White's name was signed to, and some of the things--for instance, I might recall various ones. If you go through and compare the two you will see a great number of comparisons. I never said a word of that to a living soul I knew of, for I had the original book in which Sister White read and from which some of these copies were made. I have the book in my library. I know the book, and I have other copies of the book.
Dr. Kellogg: Dr. Kress was down in Detroit, and he ran across the book eight or ten years ago--Coles' Philosophy of Health--and he came to me with great interest and he said,'I have discovered a book here that reads just like How to Live. Such a wonderful thing that the Lord should put this into two minds at different times. But the curious thing about it is that this book was written before How to Live was written.' I said,'Dr. Kress, I know all about that. I have got the book in my library. It is Coles'Philosophy of Health, isn't it?''Yes.''Now, I know all about it. His book was in my library, and Sister White had access to it when How to Live was written, and that is the explanation of that. There is no miracle about that. It is just simply a straightforward thing the same as any other.'
You know that thing never had any bearing with me at all--it does not have any now--because the truth is the truth, and the thing I am after is the truth. It doesn't make any difference with me. But there is a wrong on the part of the publishers, and I don't think it is right for Sister White to do it without announcing to the public that she did do it. If it was right for her to do it, and Will thought it was right for her to do it, then the fact should have been stated in the preface that it had been done. And that would have been all straight then, and nobody could have made any charge of any dishonesty.
But that thing never made any difference with me. I have known that thing all these years, and you never heard me complain about it. I have never made anything of it, never intend to in the world. Because Sister White had published things that were true, she has been standing for temperance, for purity and for the things that were good, giving the effort of her life to promote those things earnestly and sincerely, and I know that thing, and now I don't want to detract from any of the good she has done by picking up things I think are flaws.
Dr. Kellogg: Now, then, they went on and sold that whole edition, at least 1500 copies of that thing that they had on hand, and they went on and sold that thing off with that thing there. They went right on selling it.
But they changed the preface in the next edition so as to give a little bit of a loophole to crawl out of, giving a little bit of a hint in it, in a very mild and rather in a hidden way, that the author had also profited by information obtained from various sources as well as from divine inspiration. That is my recollection. I remember I saw the correction and I didn't like it. I said,'That is only a crawl out, that is simply something put in so that the ordinary reader won't discover it at all but will see the larger statements there of special inspiration; so they will be fooled by that thing.' Then there came out other books. Your explanation did not help the case at all about other books, even Desire of Ages and How to Live?
I don't think you ever knew about How to Live with reference to things that were borrowed from Coles.
Amadon: I knew a large share of it was borrowed.
Dr. Kellogg: Those very things Mrs. White's name was signed to, and some of the things--for instance, I might recall various ones. If you go through and compare the two you will see a great number of comparisons. I never said a word of that to a living soul I knew of, for I had the original book in which Sister White read and from which some of these copies were made. I have the book in my library. I know the book, and I have other copies of the book.
Dr. Kellogg: Dr. Kress was down in Detroit, and he ran across the book eight or ten years ago--Coles' Philosophy of Health--and he came to me with great interest and he said,'I have discovered a book here that reads just like How to Live. Such a wonderful thing that the Lord should put this into two minds at different times. But the curious thing about it is that this book was written before How to Live was written.' I said,'Dr. Kress, I know all about that. I have got the book in my library. It is Coles'Philosophy of Health, isn't it?''Yes.''Now, I know all about it. His book was in my library, and Sister White had access to it when How to Live was written, and that is the explanation of that. There is no miracle about that. It is just simply a straightforward thing the same as any other.'
You know that thing never had any bearing with me at all--it does not have any now--because the truth is the truth, and the thing I am after is the truth. It doesn't make any difference with me. But there is a wrong on the part of the publishers, and I don't think it is right for Sister White to do it without announcing to the public that she did do it. If it was right for her to do it, and Will thought it was right for her to do it, then the fact should have been stated in the preface that it had been done. And that would have been all straight then, and nobody could have made any charge of any dishonesty.
But that thing never made any difference with me. I have known that thing all these years, and you never heard me complain about it. I have never made anything of it, never intend to in the world. Because Sister White had published things that were true, she has been standing for temperance, for purity and for the things that were good, giving the effort of her life to promote those things earnestly and sincerely, and I know that thing, and now I don't want to detract from any of the good she has done by picking up things I think are flaws.
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Excerpt # 22 of the Interview with Dr. Kellogg
Dr. Kellogg: I can go and pick out a lot of things, could have done it any time in the last twenty-five or thirty years, and so could you. But what good is there in that? I could find fault with some of the good old prophets of olden time, but what good is there in that? We want to build up the things that are strong and suppress the things that are weak. So I never felt any burden--Yet they said I was going to do it, and have told her so, and that I have got a book all ready.
Now I want to say this to you once for all, that the Battle Creek Sanitarium has not published anything of that kind, has never prepared anything of that sort, and I never prepared anything of that sort in opposition to Sister White or to the Seventh-day Adventist denomination or Seventh-day Adventist doctrines, and the Sanitarium never is going to do it; and I do not propose to do it.
Amadon: I have been told it is coming up in print, and somebody has seen even some of the proofs on it, and it comes pretty straight; and I did not suppose Dr. Stewart had the backsheesh to print a document of that kind.
Bourdeau: I told him I would not do it for any money.
Dr Kellogg: He is not going to do any such thing.
Amadon: Why is it going into print?
Dr Kellogg: I did not suppose it was going into print--never heard of it until you told me here.[Dr. Stewart's letter, later called the Blue Book for its blue covers, was published not by Dr. Stewart or the Sanitarium but by A. R. Henry.]
Amadon: Thank heaven for that. There are a whole lot of points accumulating, and you ought to put in a period and let me explain some of these things.
Dr Kellogg: The thing that hurt me the worst of all, and the only thing that really has hurt me in this whole business, is the fact that men that have known me all these years should believe these things against me. What business have all you good Christian people to be judging? You have been judging right along, and that is the thing that, as I said, has hurt me and has humiliated me, and I have got down on my face and wept many a time to think that men I knew and who have known me all my lifetime could believe such things of me. I trusted they would not. And when I saw those men starting out on their campaign of deception and misrepresentation against me, I said,'I will wait. They will find out differently. I will go right on about my business, and by and by they will find out it is not true.' But they managed to keep the thing going one way or another.
Bourdeau: This organization, for instance--I didn't know but that it was a family concern, what Elder Jones has written.
Dr. Kellogg: We haven't any [church] organization there at the Sanitarium.
Bourdeau: He [Jones] is striking against our mode of organization.
Dr Kellogg: The Lord has denounced it, and he has only quoted what the Lord has said about it. That is, Sister White denounced it at the General Conference in 1901 here in Battle Creek. Sister White got up and told them their organization was wrong, and a new plan was presented and she said that plan was right.
I wrote a resolution myself at that particular time. And if I am a pantheist, I was as bad then as I am now, for I stood up before the General Conference and preached all the heresy I have, and it was put into the Bulletin and published, and at that very same time, after I did that thing, Sister White asked that I should be ordained as a preacher, and you will find it reported in the Bulletin.
___________
"That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be,--that is past. What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation and build upon a different priciple." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.25.
"The minority report expresses in a word the feelings which actuated the minority in making the report, because we believe that the constitution proposed by the majority of the committee appears to us to be so subversive of the principles of organization given to us at the General Conferences of 1897 and 1901. Those principles were given to us by the Spirit of God. In my judgment, and in the judgment of the minority of the committee, this constitution is absolutely subversive of those principles." P.T. Magan, 1903 General Conference Bulletin, p.150.
The first action taken at the 1901 Constitution was to eliminate the presidency. A chairman was chosen. But in 1902 A.G. Daniells assumed the position without the constitution and in 1903 was elected president thus rejecting the principles given by the Spirit of God in 1901.
Dr. Kellogg: I can go and pick out a lot of things, could have done it any time in the last twenty-five or thirty years, and so could you. But what good is there in that? I could find fault with some of the good old prophets of olden time, but what good is there in that? We want to build up the things that are strong and suppress the things that are weak. So I never felt any burden--Yet they said I was going to do it, and have told her so, and that I have got a book all ready.
Now I want to say this to you once for all, that the Battle Creek Sanitarium has not published anything of that kind, has never prepared anything of that sort, and I never prepared anything of that sort in opposition to Sister White or to the Seventh-day Adventist denomination or Seventh-day Adventist doctrines, and the Sanitarium never is going to do it; and I do not propose to do it.
Amadon: I have been told it is coming up in print, and somebody has seen even some of the proofs on it, and it comes pretty straight; and I did not suppose Dr. Stewart had the backsheesh to print a document of that kind.
Bourdeau: I told him I would not do it for any money.
Dr Kellogg: He is not going to do any such thing.
Amadon: Why is it going into print?
Dr Kellogg: I did not suppose it was going into print--never heard of it until you told me here.[Dr. Stewart's letter, later called the Blue Book for its blue covers, was published not by Dr. Stewart or the Sanitarium but by A. R. Henry.]
Amadon: Thank heaven for that. There are a whole lot of points accumulating, and you ought to put in a period and let me explain some of these things.
Dr Kellogg: The thing that hurt me the worst of all, and the only thing that really has hurt me in this whole business, is the fact that men that have known me all these years should believe these things against me. What business have all you good Christian people to be judging? You have been judging right along, and that is the thing that, as I said, has hurt me and has humiliated me, and I have got down on my face and wept many a time to think that men I knew and who have known me all my lifetime could believe such things of me. I trusted they would not. And when I saw those men starting out on their campaign of deception and misrepresentation against me, I said,'I will wait. They will find out differently. I will go right on about my business, and by and by they will find out it is not true.' But they managed to keep the thing going one way or another.
Bourdeau: This organization, for instance--I didn't know but that it was a family concern, what Elder Jones has written.
Dr. Kellogg: We haven't any [church] organization there at the Sanitarium.
Bourdeau: He [Jones] is striking against our mode of organization.
Dr Kellogg: The Lord has denounced it, and he has only quoted what the Lord has said about it. That is, Sister White denounced it at the General Conference in 1901 here in Battle Creek. Sister White got up and told them their organization was wrong, and a new plan was presented and she said that plan was right.
I wrote a resolution myself at that particular time. And if I am a pantheist, I was as bad then as I am now, for I stood up before the General Conference and preached all the heresy I have, and it was put into the Bulletin and published, and at that very same time, after I did that thing, Sister White asked that I should be ordained as a preacher, and you will find it reported in the Bulletin.
___________
"That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be,--that is past. What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation and build upon a different priciple." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.25.
"The minority report expresses in a word the feelings which actuated the minority in making the report, because we believe that the constitution proposed by the majority of the committee appears to us to be so subversive of the principles of organization given to us at the General Conferences of 1897 and 1901. Those principles were given to us by the Spirit of God. In my judgment, and in the judgment of the minority of the committee, this constitution is absolutely subversive of those principles." P.T. Magan, 1903 General Conference Bulletin, p.150.
The first action taken at the 1901 Constitution was to eliminate the presidency. A chairman was chosen. But in 1902 A.G. Daniells assumed the position without the constitution and in 1903 was elected president thus rejecting the principles given by the Spirit of God in 1901.
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Excerpt # 23 of the Interview with Dr. kellogg
Dr Kellogg: And I was just as bad then as I am now in every particular. And that is the thing. The fact that I know a few things about these things is the thing that enables me to stand here quietly during this storm, because I know the Lord knows all about it, and He knows exactly what I believed then and what I believe now. And all this campaign does not make any difference with the fact, and the Lord knows all about it.
As I said, the thing that hurt me is the fact that you men right here in town would believe a whole lot of this stuff without ever coming to see me once to inquire anything about it.
Bourdeau: We have come today.
Dr. Kellogg: You have been believing it. But you haven't any right to believe such a thing without asking me, without coming to me. And these other things, a lot of things these other people are going all over the world telling--When W.C. White tells stories in his official capacity before audiences, when Daniells gets up before audiences and tells tales, and others stand together and tell tales that are false as sin, and they know they are false--cannot help but know it, or if they have any ground at all it is only bare suspicion--But it goes on year after year, year after year, until by and by they get the whole denomination to believe a whole lot of things that are absolutely false. Things get to a pretty sorry pass after awhile, and I don't believe in that kind of business.
In 1903 at Oakland I took my stand against the Seventh-day Adventist form of organization (the form adopted there) I told them they were taking a back track, going into a wrong thing. Sister White said they should not have that kind of committee, but they went right on and did the same thing over and made it ten times worse than it ever was before. They threw away the new constitution, the new charter, which Sister White said in 1901 was right--as the Lord would have it--they threw that away, repudiated it, went back to the old thing they had before. Only they made it ten times worse than it was before. How can I believe in it? The Lord condemned them.
Amadon: If you have arrived at a good point, I guess I will say a word in regard to what I wrote through the Battle Creek Journal. It had no reference whatever to Great Controversy, Desire of Ages, or any other book except Sketches from the Life of Paul. This long plain statement you have made, and almost a charge, does not apply to that at all. I wrote with reference to the Life of Paul, and I thought that, very certainly thought that, what I wrote was true. I said that Sister White never writes the prefaces to her books. I happen to know that others do write them. And I said it had been stated formally in the preface of the book that such things had been taken from other works, that what had been copied verbatim ought to have been in quotation marks, or set in finer type, or in footnotes, or something of the sort, the way printers generally do.
So I think every word I said was reasonable; and I don't believe, although I do not profess to be very much of a writer, I don't believe you can take exception to a single clause in that column article.
Dr. Kellogg: This is the exception I take. That [article] was to answer to the general charge of plagiarism, and it didn't answer it. And the second thing is, it gave the impression that just as soon as the publishers found out this "mistake" was made, they suppressed it. But they didn't. They went on and sold the balance of the edition. And not only that, but they went on circulating other books in which the very same thing was done.
Dr Kellogg: And I was just as bad then as I am now in every particular. And that is the thing. The fact that I know a few things about these things is the thing that enables me to stand here quietly during this storm, because I know the Lord knows all about it, and He knows exactly what I believed then and what I believe now. And all this campaign does not make any difference with the fact, and the Lord knows all about it.
As I said, the thing that hurt me is the fact that you men right here in town would believe a whole lot of this stuff without ever coming to see me once to inquire anything about it.
Bourdeau: We have come today.
Dr. Kellogg: You have been believing it. But you haven't any right to believe such a thing without asking me, without coming to me. And these other things, a lot of things these other people are going all over the world telling--When W.C. White tells stories in his official capacity before audiences, when Daniells gets up before audiences and tells tales, and others stand together and tell tales that are false as sin, and they know they are false--cannot help but know it, or if they have any ground at all it is only bare suspicion--But it goes on year after year, year after year, until by and by they get the whole denomination to believe a whole lot of things that are absolutely false. Things get to a pretty sorry pass after awhile, and I don't believe in that kind of business.
In 1903 at Oakland I took my stand against the Seventh-day Adventist form of organization (the form adopted there) I told them they were taking a back track, going into a wrong thing. Sister White said they should not have that kind of committee, but they went right on and did the same thing over and made it ten times worse than it ever was before. They threw away the new constitution, the new charter, which Sister White said in 1901 was right--as the Lord would have it--they threw that away, repudiated it, went back to the old thing they had before. Only they made it ten times worse than it was before. How can I believe in it? The Lord condemned them.
Amadon: If you have arrived at a good point, I guess I will say a word in regard to what I wrote through the Battle Creek Journal. It had no reference whatever to Great Controversy, Desire of Ages, or any other book except Sketches from the Life of Paul. This long plain statement you have made, and almost a charge, does not apply to that at all. I wrote with reference to the Life of Paul, and I thought that, very certainly thought that, what I wrote was true. I said that Sister White never writes the prefaces to her books. I happen to know that others do write them. And I said it had been stated formally in the preface of the book that such things had been taken from other works, that what had been copied verbatim ought to have been in quotation marks, or set in finer type, or in footnotes, or something of the sort, the way printers generally do.
So I think every word I said was reasonable; and I don't believe, although I do not profess to be very much of a writer, I don't believe you can take exception to a single clause in that column article.
Dr. Kellogg: This is the exception I take. That [article] was to answer to the general charge of plagiarism, and it didn't answer it. And the second thing is, it gave the impression that just as soon as the publishers found out this "mistake" was made, they suppressed it. But they didn't. They went on and sold the balance of the edition. And not only that, but they went on circulating other books in which the very same thing was done.
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