The Inspiration of Scripture

mark kennedy · Apr 29, 2019

Ken Rank said:
There is no talking to you. Being mindful of something, placing weight on something, and thinking you just sat down and added to the bible are not the same thing. You can think they are, that's fine. 2 Tim 3:16 is a reference to the existing canon of that time.

In the verse immediately proceeding it Paul tells him to keep learning the OT because it will make him 'wise unto salvation in Jesus Christ':

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2 Tim. 3:15)

The gospel was the point of the Law and the prophets:

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:42-43)

In case you missed it' all the prophets', if that is not the clearest statement of Peter claiming to be divinely inspired in Scripture I don't know what to tell you. The gospel is the Word of God and the whole point of the testimony of the Law and the Prophets. The New Testament witness is crystal clear on this point in no uncertain terms.

Grace and peace,
Mark

mark kennedy · Apr 29, 2019

FenderTL5 said:
So your answer to my question is no. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, the Apostles considered Jesus Christ to be The Logos, the Word of God.
The story of Jesus Christ, The Logos, with emphasis on the time from Incarnation to Ascension is the good news, which is the gospel.
that's not the impression that I'm getting.

I'm not sure what you mean, I'm just saying the New Testament witness is clear that the gospel is the Word of God. There is nothing indicating the Apostles considered their message to be inferior to the Old Testament witness, especially given, they preached the gospel was a continuation and fulfillment of the Old Testament witness.

Ken Rank · Apr 29, 2019

FenderTL5 said:
fwiw, I understand the point you are trying to get across. It's simple chronology.
When a writer in a New Testament epistle says, "the scriptures," they are not talking about their own writing or things yet to be written; writings that would later be canonized as the New Testament.

That's all... I am not taking anything away from the NT, it's as inspired as any other book of the bible, in my opinion. But Paul didn't sit down thinking he was writing something that would become part of the bible. The conclusion, 2 Tim 3:16 is telling us... despite our modern view of the OT, that it contains instruction that we can use for teaching, correcting, rebuking, etc.

And my apologies... I think I twice put 1 Tim earlier. Glad you all knew what I meant.

Blessings.
Ken

Ken Rank · Apr 29, 2019

mark kennedy said:
In case you missed it' all the prophets', if that is not the clearest statement of Peter claiming to be divinely inspired in Scripture I don't know what to tell you.

More than you even realize. What "prophets" is Luke 11:47 speaking of... and where in the OT can we find that reference?

A Realist · Apr 29, 2019

Tree of Life said:
The Bible is inspired by God. What does this mean?

Simply put - "What the Bible says, God says."?

This is not the definition of "inspired". I think you're meaning "dictated".

Tone · Apr 29, 2019

Ken Rank said:
Of course they were. But at that time Paul didn't sit down to write a letter to those in Corinth thinking, "This letter has the same weight as Deuteronomy." Did you know that Ezra canonized the Torah and Prophets and didn't include the writings of himself nor his friend, Nehemiah? Paul didn't write and think he was adding to the canon nor did Peter think the same.

Nor when the serpent spoke in secret did he realize his words would add to the canon but,such is Light, that it exposes darkness...and this is His Word.

mark kennedy · Apr 29, 2019

pshun2404 said:
In THE BIBLE Peter says he did not know Christ. Did Peter know Christ? Did God say Peter did not know Christ? Where the Bible says "And the word of the Lord came to me saying" or "and the Lord said" or when Jesus spoke, we have what the Lord said but when a man or woman said something God did not say it.

Ok I assume by your line of reasoning that you are a Christian. When you express the gospel based on what you experienced by faith in Christ, is that the gospel?

Tree of Life · Apr 29, 2019

A Realist said:
This is not the definition of "inspired". I think you're meaning "dictated".

I think anything less than this is not the kind of inspiration that's worth fighting for. How would you define "inspiration"?

FireDragon76 · Apr 29, 2019

bekkilyn said:
I think so. God created each and every one of us unique and we all have different gifts, abilities, interests, and ways of doing things. If we were all put into the same organization with every church and every service conformed to one another, we would really only be reaching those who were able to receive Christ in that particular way. Our ultimate goal is Christ, but how we get there and continue in our sanctification may be very different.

I have a very politically conservative family for the most part with a few quirks, because my mother always worked outside the home after my dad retired from the U.S. Navy (and she had actually joined the Navy when she graduated from high school, and that's where she and my dad met and they got married after two weeks! She's in her 80's now and they were happily married until my father passed away a few years ago.) I was much, much younger than everyone in my family, including all the cousins, and was considered the "weird" one. I was always pushing back against various things (such as environmental destruction, financial irresponsibility, etc.) because I could easily see consequences of things far into the future, but if I said "I told you so" as often as I wanted to, I'd constantly be in trouble! It baffled me (and still often does) how people can't see things that are so incredibly obvious to me.

I was a Southern Baptist for years and though a number of things about it really grated on me, I was generally happy until it became increasingly political and ultra-conservative and I just stopped going back after college (which was a Southern Baptist college, but had excellent professors who were not afraid to teach differing points of view concerning religion, history, science, etc.)

I'd never seen a woman preacher until maybe Joyce Meyer LOL. Even so, outside of internet arguments, I get along with most people regardless of whether they are conservative or liberal or belong to this or that denomination. We are all still people in need of love from one another despite our uniqueness.

I actually had experience in some liberal Methodist churches when I was younger, so I can understand where alot of the fear of liberalism comes from. Some liberal Methodists just don't handle saying things that are potentially scandalous with any sense of sensitivity. I remember sitting through an Easter sermon in college about how maybe the resurrection didn't really happen, but that's OK "because..." (ironically, I heard a similar sermon about Jesus and the Loaves and the Fishes at my local Methodist church over a decade ago, in fact the Methodist church was my first choice when returning to churchgoing). I have no time for that sort of religion now days, and I'm glad I'm in a church where Pastor cares about everybody's faith, even those that believe in a literal six day creation.

mark kennedy · Apr 29, 2019

Ken Rank said:
More than you even realize. What "prophets" is Luke 11:47 speaking of... and where in the OT can we find that reference?

I have no idea where you are going with this and the question completely lost me, here is the quote in context:

“Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all. (Luke 11:47-51)

I assume by where in the OT do you find this phrase, 'God in his wisdom has said, 'I will send you prophets and apostles'. You don't, that's not what Jesus is quoting, let us remember, Jesus is the most important source of divine revelation in the Bible bar none. The gospel is the Word of God, strange how hard this is to drive home with you.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Tone · Apr 29, 2019

mark kennedy said:
When I speak of those books I usually capitalize the word 'Gospel', simple because it's part of a title. Paul speaks repeatedly of the gospel in his writings, there isn't a single instance where Paul, or any of the other Apostles, didn't consider the gospel as the Word of God. I'm not splitting semantical hairs here, I'm talking about the Apostolic witness.

Let's try this passage from Luke on the parable of the sower:

“This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. (Luke 8:11)

How is that seed not the gospel?

Do you know what Genesis 3:15 is called by theologians?

A Realist · Apr 29, 2019

Tree of Life said:
How would you define "inspiration"?

"the divine influence believed to have led to the writing of the Bible"

Note the word "influence".

This does not mean what you say it means. You appear to have created your own definition of the word.

mark kennedy · Apr 29, 2019

Tone said:
Do you know what Genesis 3:15 is called by theologians?

The first Messianic prophecy?

Tree of Life · Apr 29, 2019

A Realist said:
"the divine influence believed to have led to the writing of the Bible"

Note the word "influence". This does not mean what you say it means.

Lol. That's a very weak view of inspiration.

The Bible is simply influenced by God? Led Zeppelin was influenced by the Beatles, but you certainly couldn't put the Beatles name on anything that Led Zeppelin produced.

If the Bible is merely a collection of works that are influenced by God in some undefined way, how does it have any authority in our lives?

A Realist · Apr 29, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Lol. That's a very weak view of inspiration.

The Bible is simply influenced by God? Led Zeppelin was influenced by the Beatles, but you certainly couldn't put the Beatles name on anything that Led Zeppelin produced.

If the Bible is merely a collection of works that are influenced by God in some undefined way, how does it have any authority in our lives?

You appear to have created your own definition of the word, and as such, it carries no weight. This don't mean everyone has to accept your definition.

Tree of Life · Apr 29, 2019

A Realist said:
You appear to have created your own definition of the word, and as such, it carries no weight. This don't mean everyone has to accept your definition.

Could you answer my question?

Ken Rank · Apr 29, 2019

mark kennedy said:
I have no idea where you are going with this and the question completely lost me, here is the quote in context:

“Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all. (Luke 11:47-51)

I assume by where in the OT do you find this phrase, 'God in his wisdom has said, 'I will send you prophets and apostles'. You don't, that's not what Jesus is quoting, let us remember, Jesus is the most important source of divine revelation in the Bible bar none. The gospel is the Word of God, strange how hard this is to drive home with you.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Context isn't the verse before and after or the paragraph, although they help of course. Context is ANYTHING that effects the text. The verse before has him speaking to lawyers. This of course not secular lawyers, but those who interpret God's law. Since we know there were two sects of Pharisees, we can also derive who he is speaking of here... those who were part of Beit Shammai. The Talmud, though not something to consider inspired on the level of the bible, does reveal certain cultural thoughts and words that were common to those people at that time. One thing we learn in there is that the teachers from Beit Hillel were called prophets. Different use of the word but all words have more than one meaning. Anyway... a few generations before Christ, members of Beit Shammai went into Beit Hillel and killed a number of the teachers. You won't find a reference to any of the fathers (ancestors) of that sect of Pharisees Jesus was talking to in Luke 11 having killed prophets as we generally use that word... his reference there was to the incident that took place at Beit Hillel.

My point? You're right, Peter's use of the word "prophets" isn't clear and we shouldn't run to make hasty conclusions as we have seen done in this thread. Sometimes there are extenuating factors we are not aware of that are tied into the "context."

A Realist · Apr 29, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Could you answer my question?

Nope. As I stated, your self-created definition carries no weight, so any response I give you would be an exercise in futility on my part.

Tone · Apr 29, 2019

mark kennedy said:
The first Messianic prophecy?

The Protevangelium - Wikipedia..."First Gospel". My point being,that the Besorah (In fact, "Besorah" is the Hebrew word that means message or report, that became the Old English term, Gospel, from the Greek euangelion...Besorah of Yahusha Natsarim Version) is rooted way back in the Old Testament.

"We read in Isaiah 52:7:

מַה־נָּאו֙וּ עַל־הֶהָרִ֜ים רַגְלֵ֣י מְבַשֵּׂ֗ר מַשְׁמִ֧יעַ שָׁל֛וֹם …אֹמֵ֥ר לְצִיּ֖וֹן מָלַ֥ךְ אֱלֹהָֽיִךְ׃
How pleasant on the mountains are the feet of him who proclaims the news of peace… and says to Zion, “Your God reigns!”

The good news is set in a military context. It is expressed in terms of Israel’s God defeating His enemies. The announcement of God’s victory is the basic reason for Zion to rejoice. The apostle Paul, when describing the spectacular effect of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, also defined it in terms of the war-like defeat of the powers of darkness..."
https://israelstudycenter.com/the-gospel-in-the-hebrew-bible/

*"as the Protoevangelium, the first messianic prophecy in the Old Testament."[6]

redleghunter · Apr 29, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Perhaps God didn't inspire the psuedo-Pauline epistle's mistrust of women, or Paul's contempt for malakoi and arsenokoitai, for instance, but God counted on us to be able to distinguish this from the main ideas that were critical to his message.

Psuedo Pauline epistles?

The Inspiration of Scripture

What the Bible says, God says.

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