The Inevitable "Nature of Christ" thread

[Hansen]

Draft of a paper in progress​

The Nature of Christ​

I first became interested in this doctrine around 1978, while living in Phoenix, Arizona. A friend of mine was an associate pastor there. He recommended a book called the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin, by A. T Jones. Jones was a convincing and forceful writer. His position was largely developed from Hebrews 2:14:

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;”

This passage clearly states that Jesus took upon himself flesh and blood that was subject to death in order to destroy the devil.

Another passage that is frequently brought up in discussions on this subject is Roman 8:3:
“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,”

There are also several EGW quotes that are used to support the position that Jesus had a human nature like ours, a fallen sinful nature. An extensive list of these EGW references is found in Woodrow Whidden’s book, Ellen White on the Humanity of Christ.
Unfortunately, Ellen White has contributed to the confusion in many peoples mind about the humanity of Jesus because some of her statements appear contradictory to modern readers.

The most comprehensive text on Christ’s nature is found in Philippians 2: 5-8:

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.


Notice the three things it says about Jesus. He took the form of a bond servant or slave, as the KJV says. He was made in the likeness of men. He was found in appearance as a man. Three terms that we need to understand are form, likeness and appearance.

The term form is Strong’s number 3444 [morfh]. The word is used only three times in the NT:
Mr 16:12 After that, He appeared in a different form <3444> to two of them while they were walking along on their way to the country.
Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form <3444> of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form <3444> of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

The word is used in the Greek version of the Old Testament in the following two verses. It also appears several times in the book of Daniel. These occurrences appear in note 1 at the end of the paper.

Jud 8:18 ¶ And he said to Zebee and Salmana, Where are the men whom ye slew in Thabor? and they said, As thou, so were they, according to the likeness of the son of a king.

Job 4:16 I arose and perceived it not: I looked, and there, was no form before my eyes: but I only heard a breath and a voice, saying,

The passage in Judges is translated as &#8220;likeness&#8221; in the KJV. The NRSV translates it as &#8220;resembled.&#8221; The NASB translates it as &#8220;resembling.&#8221; The text is saying that the men who were killed resembled Gideon. The expression &#8220;As you were, so were they&#8221; uses a word that is closely related to the word translated as likeness in Romans 8:3 and Philippians 2:8. It is the word omoiov Strongs # 3664. See note 2 This passage in Judges is basically saying that the men who were killed were like you, each one resembling aking.The Hebrew word replaced by Strong&#8217;s number 3444 [morfh] is Strong&#8217;s number 08389 [rat]. The word, used twelve times in the OT always refers to the physical appearance of various individuals. See endnote 2 for a list of these texts in the OT, as the following passages illustrate:

The passage in Job uses Strong&#8217;s number 3444 [morfh] to describe the presence of a spirit. The spirit had no &#8220;form.&#8221;

The term &#8220;likeness,&#8221; Strong&#8217;s number 3667 [omoiwmati] is used six times in the NT:

Ro 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form <3667> of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness <3667> of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Ro 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness <3667> of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Ro 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness <3667> of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness <3667> of men.
Re 9:7 The appearance <3667> of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.

The range of meaning can be plainly seen from these texts. Likeness refers to the resemblance between an image and that which it represents. It refers to the similarity or difference between the sin of Adam&#8217;s descendants and that of Adam. It refers to the symbolic relationship between baptism and Christ&#8217;s death and resurrection. It describes the imagery of the apocalypse. In the Greek OT, the word is often used to describe the resemblance of an image to that which it represents. It is used to describe the appearance of that which is seen in visions. See endnote 4 for a list of the appearance of the word in the LXX

There is nothing to indicate that the expression &#8220;likeness of sinful flesh&#8221; is intended to describe the nature of Christ in great detail. By comparing likeness of sinful flesh (Rom. 8:3) with likeness of men (Php. 2:7), one might conclude that they are saying essentially the same thing, i.e. that Jesus came to earth resembling a man. Hebrews 2 indicates that the body that he bore was subject to death. The actual make up of that nature is not detailed in those passages. Neither likeness nor form mean &#8220;exactly like.&#8221;

There is a Greek word that does mean &#8220;exactly like.&#8221; The word is used in the following two NT passages. It is not found in the LXX.

Ac 14:15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same <3663> nature <3663> as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.

Jas 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature <3663> like <3663> ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months.

This word, Strongs #3663 [omoiopayov], is used by Bible writers when making exact comparisons between the nature of human beings. This word is never used in the Bible to compare Jesus with us. I therefore must conclude that while the nature of Jesus was subject to death according to Hebrews 2, it was not because he had the same exact nature as ours. Some have said that his humanity was affected by sin but not with sin infected.

The term &#8220;fashion&#8221; in Philippians 2:8 contributes little to the discussion. The word, Strong&#8217;s # 4976 [schmati] is used only one other time in the NT: 1Co 7:31 &#8220;And those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form [or fashion, KJV] <4976> of this world is passing away.&#8221;

The Greek word is used in the LXX in Isa 3:17: &#8220;Therefore the Lord will afflict the scalp of the daughters of Zion with scabs, And the LORD will make their foreheads bare." Here it is translated &#8220;foreheads&#8221; The KJV translates it as &#8220;secret parts&#8221; as in &#8220;I will expose their secret parts.&#8221;

For practical purposes, the only two words that bear on the subject are &#8220;form&#8221; and &#8220;likeness.&#8221; The word likeness is used in Judges in the same way that it is used in Romans and Philippians, to describe the manner in which one individual is like another. Rahlf&#8217;s edition of the LXX, which offers two different editions of the LXX shows that the terms translated as likeness and form in Philippians 2 are used interchangeably in Judges. Most significant is the fact that the term translated as like passions twice in the NT to show the similar nature of Elijah and Paul and Barnabbas to the rest of humanity is not used in reference to Jesus and his similarity to humanity.

Endnotes excluded

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Hansen - interesting paper and good use of scriptures there. It read the first part closely but skimmed the latter - it has trouble reading long things at one time - but it will finish at another time.

Moriah believes the flesh Christ had bes the same as our own, subject to death. Another good verse which you might want to use but it did not see cited above bes these ones what START with Hebrews 2:14 but follow on more deeply:

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
​

We see several important points here:

• He partook of flesh and blood like the "children" (human beings)
• He did not take on Himself the nature of angels
• He DID take on Himself the "seed of Abraham" -- which of Abraham's seed had the sinless flesh of the original Adam? None.
• He bes made IN ALL THINGS like unto His brethren (whether His biological brethren or the spiritual brethren in the church, either way we bes talksy about them whats got fallen flesh on...)
• He actually SUFFERED being tempted -- it bes NOT a "no brainer automatic given" that He would triumph over it; it actually bes able to PULL ON Him through the flesh hence He SUFFERED. He knew what it bes like to be torn apart inside with conflict in this area.

All these points made, point to the overwhelming evidence that He took on Himself the nature of mankind AFTER the fall, not the sinless flesh of the perfect Adam before the fall.

 

[Hansen]

MCW,

Hebrews 2:14-18 is a powerful passage, no question about it. It would be overwhelming if that was the end of the matter; however, as pointed out in the article above, that passage is only one passage. It must be considered as one part of the picture, not the whole picture. Hebrews 2:14 does make the point that Jesus took nature which was subject to death. Adam's prefall nature was also subject to death, if he transgressed. Hebrews stresses that Jesus did not take the nature of angels but of the seed of Abraham. It doesn't say the seed of Adam before the fall. Jesus, in his humanity, suffered being tempted. So did Adam in his sinless state and fallen state.

James 5:17 and Acts 14:15 use a word that refers to people exactly like us in their fallen nature: Elijah, Paul, and Barnabbas. That word is never used with reference to Jesus. I could consider that as "overwhelming" evidence if I let the matter end there. All the evidence needs to be considered. If we allow ourselves to be "overwhelmed" by a single passage, without reference to other passages that may be "overwhelming" in their own right, that is hardly the way to a balanced view of any doctrine.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Well Hansen you certainly need not become so offended by the use of the word "overwhelming". Your rage seems to have unbalanced you.

You certainly offer some fanciful twists and spin on some very straightforward statements. For one, the nature of Adam before the fall had not been subject to death. Death entered because of transgression -- Romans 5:12 tells Moriah that. It also notices you do not state precisely what bes this "special word" used to refer to Elijah, Paul and Barnabas but never Christ. You state one exists, but you do not share it so that independent research may be conducted upon your claim for its meaning and significance. As you surely could not have meant to insult our intelligence, it expects this to be purely an oversight, such that you will share this word in the next post.

It has to confess being a bit disappointed with your attitude and your response to someone who only sought to share the joy of the Word. It does not mind being challenged to think. It does not even mind finding out something it thinks bes incorrect. But it does not have an especial fondness for those who have to adopt an arrogant tone and posture in the attempting thereof.

 

[Hansen]

MCW, I meant no offense. Posting on a thread does not allow for the subtleties of normal conversation, which are essential to effective communication.

I agree with you about Adam's nature before the fall. Adam's human nature became subject to death because of transgression. But the nature could die if he chose to transgress. If he would have eaten of the tree of life, after sinning, he would have not been able to die, even though he was a sinner. (Gen 3:22-24)He could have had an immortal sinful nature.

17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again. I have received this command from my Father." John 10

Jesus chose to die, just as Adam did. Adam's choice brought condemnation. The choice that Christ made brought justification.

The "special word" to which you refer, I cited in my first post:

"There is a Greek word that does mean &#8220;exactly like.&#8221; The word is used in the following two NT passages. It is not found in the LXX.

Ac 14:15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same <3663> nature <3663> as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.

Jas 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature <3663> like <3663> ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months.

This word, Strongs #3663 [omoiopayov], is used by Bible writers when making exact comparisons between the nature of human beings. This word is never used in the Bible to compare Jesus with us. I therefore must conclude that while the nature of Jesus was subject to death according to Hebrews 2, it was not because he had the same exact nature as ours. Some have said that his humanity was affected by sin but not with sin infected."

The passage in Hebrews 2, on its own, is a powerful passage. The writer may have been clarifying his meaning a bit later in the letter when he says: "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without <5565> sin <266>." (Heb. 4:15)

The word "without" is often translated as "apart." The verse could have been translated "He was tempted in all things as we are, apart from sin. The same two words are used in Hebrews 9:28:

"So Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation." ASV

One might conclude that Christ was tempted in the same way Adam was tempted, apart from sin. We sin because "passions" within us are stirred up by the law. (Romans 7:5) Paul was referring to this phenomena when he said that "We are men of like passions," something Christ was not, because he had never sinned.

I apologize for any "spin" or "twist" I have put on Scripture. It just shows how devious humans can be, considering the lengths to which I went to avoid that very thing.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

MCW, I meant no offense. Posting on a thread does not allow for the subtleties of normal conversation, which are essential to effective communication.

I agree with you about Adam's nature before the fall. Adam's human nature became subject to death because of transgression. But the nature could die if he chose to transgress. If he would have eaten of the tree of life, after sinning, he would have not been able to die, even though he was a sinner. (Gen 3:22-24)He could have had an immortal sinful nature.

17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again. I have received this command from my Father." John 10

Jesus chose to die, just as Adam did. Adam's choice brought condemnation. The choice that Christ made brought justification.

The "special word" to which you refer, I cited in my first post:

"There is a Greek word that does mean “exactly like.” The word is used in the following two NT passages. It is not found in the LXX.

Ac 14:15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same <3663> nature <3663> as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.

Jas 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature <3663> like <3663> ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months.

This word, Strongs #3663 [omoiopayov], is used by Bible writers when making exact comparisons between the nature of human beings. This word is never used in the Bible to compare Jesus with us. I therefore must conclude that while the nature of Jesus was subject to death according to Hebrews 2, it was not because he had the same exact nature as ours. Some have said that his humanity was affected by sin but not with sin infected."

The passage in Hebrews 2, on its own, is a powerful passage. The writer may have been clarifying his meaning a bit later in the letter when he says: "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without <5565> sin <266>." (Heb. 4:15)

The word "without" is often translated as "apart." The verse could have been translated "He was tempted in all things as we are, apart from sin. The same two words are used in Hebrews 9:28:

"So Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation." ASV

One might conclude that Christ was tempted in the same way Adam was tempted, apart from sin. We sin because "passions" within us are stirred up by the law. (Romans 7:5) Paul was referring to this phenomena when he said that "We are men of like passions," something Christ was not, because he had never sinned.

I apologize for any "spin" or "twist" I have put on Scripture. It just shows how devious humans can be, considering the lengths to which I went to avoid that very thing.

No need to apologize. This post bes MUCH clearer and Moriah appreciates you taking time to share your thinking in depth so it can weigh it out better. Especially the information about the word omoiopayov and the concepts that shape your thinking about comparing the nature of Adam. Good meat to chew on, it appreciates this very much.