The impossible ethic

tremble

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Most of the time, however, those commune experiences did not work out so well. Usually you had one or two people who wanted to be "in charge" and make decisions for everyone else. The commune had become more "commun-ism"...there was no freedom at all. Needless to say, these sorts of arrangements soon broke up, often leaving those who had been involved broke and disillusioned.

I'm curious, if you had 10 Christians ready to live communally with you right now, how would you organize the commune so that it would not fail?
 
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tremble

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Ok, so it sounds like you're saying that Christians are supposed to live in a commune-type of living arrangement.

No, I am not saying it. Look at the example of Jesus and his followers. Look at the example of the early church. I'm not saying anything new. I've not created any new teaching. I'm just promoting a lifestyle that's already been demonstrated as our example to follow.

Why didn't you tell us this before?

There is a lot that I've been trying to tell you. ^.^
 
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Angelquill

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I'm curious, if you had 10 Christians ready to live communally with you right now, how would you organize the commune so that it would not fail?

See, that's the problem. There's always someone who wants to "organize". Someone always wants to make decisions for everyone else. And there will always be someone who feels that the decisions made in his or her behalf are unfair.

I've seen a commune break up because one young mother...an excellent cook who seemed to do a great deal of cooking for the group...had a habit of eating cookie dough. Not a lot, mind you...but enough to really tick off another woman, who seemed to think that her eating a couple of handfuls of dough as she made the cookies would somehow deprive her of her fair share of cookies. Naturally, someone else tried to "organize" by setting up a kitchen schedule...and immediately there was arguing. Not everyone wanted to share kitchen chores, and the young mother who had loved cooking for the group, got her feelings rather badly hurt. She and her husband took their kids and left, and after that, the rest of the group just fell apart.

Now, the group was happy before that with the young Mom doing most of the cooking, and other members doing other things that they enjoyed and were good at. Nobody "organized" anything...people just naturally worked together for the good of all...There were a few couples with kids, and some single people, but there was the feeling that we were all part of one family...it was glorious, right up to the argument over cookie dough.

The funny thing is, I am reminded of that lady every holiday season. See, I went on and married and had kids of my own, and got to be a pretty decent cook myself. And guess what? Cookie dough is pretty darn good stuff! :holy:
 
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tremble

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See, that's the problem. There's always someone who wants to "organize". Someone always wants to make decisions for everyone else. And there will always be someone who feels that the decisions made in his or her behalf are unfair.

There is a difference between organizing and being a dictator. Even here on this forum we have organization. There are various categories set up, there are rules about who can post where and about which topics. We have moderators who administer the site's ongoing progress and help when problems come up.

Are you saying all of that is a problem? Do you think this forum would be better off with no rules, no accountability and no staff to keep it all going? Do you see any contradiction in your reasoning?

I've seen a commune break up because one young mother...an excellent cook who seemed to do a great deal of cooking for the group...had a habit of eating cookie dough. Not a lot, mind you...but enough to really tick off another woman, who seemed to think that her eating a couple of handfuls of dough as she made the cookies would somehow deprive her of her fair share of cookies. Naturally, someone else tried to "organize" by setting up a kitchen schedule...and immediately there was arguing. Not everyone wanted to share kitchen chores, and the young mother who had loved cooking for the group, got her feelings rather badly hurt. She and her husband took their kids and left, and after that, the rest of the group just fell apart.

Wow, she left the community because someone suggested that the kitchen chores be shared? She left because someone didn't think it good for her to eat fistfuls of cookie dough as she was cooking? She left because there was "arguing"? Is that really a reason to give up on the example Jesus set for us in communal living? If someone disagrees with our right to eat handfuls of cookie dough then we leave? Does that really sound reasonable to you?

It also sounds like this young mother who "loved cooking for the group" probably had a pride problem about her cooking. It sounds like she thought of herself as the boss of the kitchen and when someone else came in with suggestions about her eating habits or organizing jobs in the kitchen, she didn't like it. I've seen that happen before. When people are good at working in the kitchen they start to feel as though they are the one responsible for what happens in the kitchen. If anyone else suggests changes which she disagrees with, then she feels she has the right to reject those changes simply because she is the one who does all the cooking for everyone. I've seen this happen with both males and females.

Also, if the whole group falls apart because one person leaves, then were they really following Jesus, or were they following that person? It certainly does sound like this young mother was the leader of the group if it feel apart after she left. Did she ever make any efforts to teach the group that they should not follow her, but instead follow Jesus? If so, what methods did she use to communicate that vital lesson. And if not, why not?

Now, the group was happy before that with the young Mom doing most of the cooking, and other members doing other things that they enjoyed and were good at. Nobody "organized" anything...people just naturally worked together for the good of all...There were a few couples with kids, and some single people, but there was the feeling that we were all part of one family...it was glorious, right up to the argument over cookie dough.

No group of people will be able to work together without some kind of organization. What you are describing is anarchy and although it sounds spiritual and idealistic, it simply does not work. People must work together if they want to succeed at any kind of group goal and it is impossible to work together unless there is some kind of organized way for each member to be a part of what is happening.

This means they must have meetings to discuss various issues. Yes, people should be encouraged to do what they like to do, but they need to talk about what goals they want to achieve and how they can best achieve those goals. Otherwise it's not really a community. It's just a group of people all doing their own thing who just happen to live together. That is not a community.

The funny thing is, I am reminded of that lady every holiday season. See, I went on and married and had kids of my own, and got to be a pretty decent cook myself. And guess what? Cookie dough is pretty darn good stuff!

Sure, most people enjoy sweet foods at times. But the question is, is your right to eat fistfuls of cookie dough really more important than working together with other Christians? If someone expresses a concern about how much sweets you are eating, is that a good reason to become upset and forsake the assembling together of yourselves?

If someone suggests that the cooking duty be shared by several people, rather than just one (or maybe two) people who want to do all the cooking, is that really a good reason to become angry and leave? Doesn't that suggest a deeper problem in the person who becomes so angry that she feels it's worth forsaking the community. Why not just let other people share the cooking duties? What's the problem with that?
 
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Angelquill

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There is a difference between organizing and being a dictator. Even here on this forum we have organization. There are various categories set up, there are rules about who can post where and about which topics. We have moderators who administer the site's ongoing progress and help when problems come up.

Are you saying all of that is a problem? Do you think this forum would be better off with no rules, no accountability and no staff to keep it all going? Do you see any contradiction in your reasoning?

A person's home is not quite the same thing as a forum. The comparison is not valid.
 
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tremble

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A person's home is not quite the same thing as a forum. The comparison is not valid.

But we're not talking about "a" person's home. We're talking about a communal home. The only way people can successfully work together is by talking to one another, listening to one another, agreeing on common goals and helping one another to achieve that goals. When people become too proud to listen to one another, the community becomes dysfunctional and of course will fall apart.

In your previous post you made disparaging remarks about organization in general. I simply pointed out an example where organization does work and not only that, but is useful and even necessary in order for things to run smoothly.

If you think organization here on the forum is a good thing, based on how it causes hundreds of people to be able to participate in an orderly fashion, then the same kind of organization must be beneficial in a communal setting, as well. The basic principle is the same.
 
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Angelquill

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Wow, she left the community because someone suggested that the kitchen chores be shared? She left because someone didn't think it good for her to eat fistfuls of cookie dough as she was cooking? She left because there was "arguing"? Is that really a reason to give up on the example Jesus set for us in communal living? If someone disagrees with our right to eat handfuls of cookie dough then we leave? Does that really sound reasonable to you?

There was no idea of a "suggestion". Rather, a couple of people were trying to set up rules for everyone else to follow. The lady in question was not the only one who was upset by this.
I don't think I said "fistfuls of cookie dough"...rather, it was a few handfuls. She wasn't someone who used a recipe, she tended to use the "pinch of this and dab of that" system, and again, she was very, very good at it. The Keebler elves wish they could
bake like this gal.

Again, there was right and wrong on all sides. Perhaps she should have tried to compromise. However, I believe it was the husband who actually made the decision to pack up the kids and leave. He was quite angry...especially when the lady who was so concerned about the cookies made his lady cry...not to mention that the whole thing upset their kids.

It also sounds like this young mother who "loved cooking for the group" probably had a pride problem about her cooking. It sounds like she thought of herself as the boss of the kitchen and when someone else came in with suggestions about her eating habits or organizing jobs in the kitchen, she didn't like it. I've seen that happen before. When people are good at working in the kitchen they start to feel as though they are the one responsible for what happens in the kitchen. If anyone else suggests changes which she disagrees with, then she feels she has the right to reject those changes simply because she is the one who does all the cooking for everyone. I've seen this happen with both males and females.

Since when is taking pride in our work a problem? As long as we give God the glory, and she did, why is it wrong to take pride in the talents He has given us, and the accomplishments He has granted to us?
Everyone thought of her as the Kitchen Queen, and were quite happy to have it so...that is they were until that one woman got so worried about cookies. And everyone loved her.
She did take responsibility for the kitchen...not only the cooking, but keeping it clean, as well. It was a big job, and everyone else was quite happy to let her handle it. Remember, this was before dish washers were common household items...

Also, if the whole group falls apart because one person leaves, then were they really following Jesus, or were they following that person? It certainly does sound like this young mother was the leader of the group if it feel apart after she left. Did she ever make any efforts to teach the group that they should not follow her, but instead follow Jesus? If so, what methods did she use to communicate that vital lesson. And if not, why not?

Yes, the group was trying to stumble along Jesus' narrow path. There was a lot of love in that house...that is until Satan slithered in with his legalistic approach. People thought of it as their home, and the others as their family.
Yes, she was, in a way, a leader...or a mother...to the others. Nothing wrong with that.
It isn't as if Jesus' followers do not have leaders among their numbers. She was always talking about Jesus or singing Christian songs as she worked. She saved stale bread and broke it into crumbs for the children to throw to the birds, she prayed with them, she just basically showed love for everyone.
 
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Angelquill

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No group of people will be able to work together without some kind of organization. What you are describing is anarchy and although it sounds spiritual and idealistic, it simply does not work. People must work together if they want to succeed at any kind of group goal and it is impossible to work together unless there is some kind of organized way for each member to be a part of what is happening.

This means they must have meetings to discuss various issues. Yes, people should be encouraged to do what they like to do, but they need to talk about what goals they want to achieve and how they can best achieve those goals. Otherwise it's not really a community. It's just a group of people all doing their own thing who just happen to live together. That is not a community.

Perhaps I was not clear. I would say that the group did have a loose sort of "organization". Certain rules were "understood"...such as "thou shalt not take the car without checking to see if anyone else needs it" or "thou shalt put the toilet seat down, remembering that there are ladies in the house"...

However, there was no "chore list". The man who took care of the yard and garden didn't need anyone to tell him when to mow the grass or weed the flower bed, the "handyman" didn't need to be told to fix a window if it got broken...etc.
Yes, they met to discuss certain things...or rather, stuff got discussed over the supper table.
Hey, it worked for the entire group for something like three years, and everyone was happy it...until they let this woman with the cookie fetish join the group.
 
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Angelquill

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But we're not talking about "a" person's home. We're talking about a communal home. The only way people can successfully work together is by talking to one another, listening to one another, agreeing on common goals and helping one another to achieve that goals. When people become too proud to listen to one another, the community becomes dysfunctional and of course will fall apart.

In your previous post you made disparaging remarks about organization in general. I simply pointed out an example where organization does work and not only that, but is useful and even necessary in order for things to run smoothly.

If you think organization here on the forum is a good thing, based on how it causes hundreds of people to be able to participate in an orderly fashion, then the same kind of organization must be beneficial in a communal setting, as well. The basic principle is the same.


Any group is made up of individual members, so, to each individual member, a communal home is his or her home. A commune is like a family.

My disparaging remarks were aimed at those who feel as if they are the final authority and wish to "organize" everyone else whether they are willing or no.

Here, we have a website where literally thousands of individuals come to discuss...or to debate...their faith. That is not the same thing as a dozen or so people getting together and agreeing to share their resources for the greater good of everyone in the group. Here, we need rules, and moderators, and all the rest of it. We should not need all of that in our homes, among our family. Some loose structure ought to be more than sufficient.

No group is going to survive for very long unless all of the members of that group respect the other members.
That would include not biting the hand that feeds you....
 
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Aldebaran

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When I read all this stuff about living in a commune, it tells me that we're just trading one set of problems for another. Also, trading what we have to be proud of ourselves for a different reason. It drained me just reading it all. People taking advantage of others, people getting mad at each other because someone didn't think someone else did enough, entire groups falling apart.

Come on, guys! Tremble, I have read your posts and I appreciate the time and effort you've taken to explain what you did. But it's still difficult for me to believe that giving up all I have to live in a situation such as has been described will fulfill God's requirement of me to get into Heaven to spend eternity there. I didn't read one thing in your posts about what Christ did for us. He must not have done very much if I have do trade one set of problems for another in the name of "love" when a person can just as much when they have a job and live the "conventional" way.

I can confidently say that if I were to give up everything and live this way so that I could say that I've set aside my old ways and now living my Christ's commandments, I would have a sense of "pride", thinking I was now earning my way into Heaven. This would really not jive well with what Paul said:

Ephesians 2:8-9 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


If living the way you are talking about and giving up everything will save me, then I have plenty of reason to boast. When I die, I don't want to stand before God and having him ask me why I should be allowed into Heaven, only for me to answer, "I followed Christ's commandments, and gave up all I had and lived in a commune and didn't call anything my own". No! The answer I want to give is, "Because Christ died for my sins, and I trust in Him and His gift as my payment for my sins".
 
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Angelquill

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When I read all this stuff about living in a commune, it tells me that we're just trading one set of problems for another. Also, trading what we have to be proud of ourselves for a different reason. It drained me just reading it all. People taking advantage of others, people getting mad at each other because someone didn't think someone else did enough, entire groups falling apart.

Come on, guys! Tremble, I have read your posts and I appreciate the time and effort you've taken to explain what you did. But it's still difficult for me to believe that giving up all I have to live in a situation such as has been described will fulfill God's requirement of me to get into Heaven to spend eternity there. I didn't read one thing in your posts about what Christ did for us. He must not have done very much if I have do trade one set of problems for another in the name of "love" when a person can just as much when they have a job and live the "conventional" way.

I can confidently say that if I were to give up everything and live this way so that I could say that I've set aside my old ways and now living my Christ's commandments, I would have a sense of "pride", thinking I was now earning my way into Heaven. This would really not jive well with what Paul said:

Ephesians 2:8-9 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


If living the way you are talking about and giving up everything will save me, then I have plenty of reason to boast. When I die, I don't want to stand before God and having him ask me why I should be allowed into Heaven, only for me to answer, "I followed Christ's commandments, and gave up all I had and lived in a commune and didn't call anything my own". No! The answer I want to give is, "Because Christ died for my sins, and I trust in Him and His gift as my payment for my sins".


:amen:

I think I did mention that my scenario was from back during the hippie era. I was very young...seventeen or around there, I think, and very naïve...I was thrilled with the whole notion of Christians sharing a home together.

I've grown up so much since then.... :p

I don't know where the idea came from that Jesus wants us to live this way. He never said so that I know of. The idea didn't work in Jerusalem, as Peter could tell us.
Peter didn't "give up all that he had"...didn't Jesus preach from Peter's fishing boat? Wasn't He a frequent guest in Peter's home?
There were the women who followed Him, and supported His ministry with their own substance. The group might have had a problem if those gals had suddenly decided to give away everything they had...
There was Lazarus of Bethany, Jesus friend whom He raised from the dead. He seems to have been fairly well off, but Jesus did not suggest that he give away all that he had, either.
Jesus and the apostles even had a money bag that Judas carried...
And the scriptures speak of the early church meeting "from house to house", so it seems reasonable to suppose that they lived in their own houses, and not in a commune like is under discussion here.

I remember when I thought Karl Marx was a genius. I thought his ideas about communism were just what the world needed.
Again, I was very young...

Unfortunately, people are still not perfect. When "two or more" live together, arguments are sure to happen...and the more you have in the group, the more they will find to argue about.
 
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Aldebaran

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I remember when I thought Karl Marx was a genius. I thought his ideas about communism were just what the world needed.
Again, I was very young...

Unfortunately, people are still not perfect. When "two or more" live together, arguments are sure to happen...and the more you have in the group, the more they will find to argue about.

Unfortunately, there are people who think Obama is a genius too. They tried to prove it during the whole "Occupy Movement". Those were mostly young people too. Gaining experience through living life teaches us much.

You're right about people still not being perfect. My biggest fear with some of the assertions by people like Tremble advocating this type of lifestyle is that it somehow increases our perfection so we will become more acceptable to God. We cannot do that! Read this:

“But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,” Titus 3:4–5

If Christ has saved us, then why am I supposed to give up everything I have, no longer have a job, and live in a commune with other Christians along with the problems that come from that? Am I completing what Jesus didn't complete? Am I making myself better for God?
 
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tremble

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If living the way you are talking about and giving up everything will save me, then I have plenty of reason to boast. When I die, I don't want to stand before God and having him ask me why I should be allowed into Heaven, only for me to answer, "I followed Christ's commandments, and gave up all I had and lived in a commune and didn't call anything my own". No! The answer I want to give is, "Because Christ died for my sins, and I trust in Him and His gift as my payment for my sins".

I suspect he will probably say something like, "if you really trusted him and appreciated his sacrifice for you, then why did you argue against following his teachings"?

Anyway, good luck.
 
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Boidae

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I suspect he will probably say something like, "if you really trusted him and appreciated his sacrifice for you, then why did you argue against following his teachings"?

Anyway, good luck.

I think what Aldebaran is arguing against your interpretation of Jesus' teachings. Which is really what all that disagree with you are doing. They are arguing against your interpretation.

I haven't seen anyone really argue against His teachings, just an interpretation of His teachings.
 
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Rubiks

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I think what Aldebaran is arguing against your interpretation of Jesus' teachings. Which is really what all that disagree with you are doing. They are arguing against your interpretation.

I haven't seen anyone really argue against His teachings, just an interpretation of His teachings.

Bingo.
 
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Angelquill

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If giving up everything we own and joining a commune could get us into heaven, then Jesus was wasting His time hanging on that cross.
In fact, when you think about it, He would have been making a complete fool of Himself. A masochistic idiot...:cry:

I will never believe that. He gave Himself for me, precisely because no action of mine could suffice to pay for my sins.
I am helpless in my sins without Him....
 
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Aldebaran

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If giving up everything we own and joining a commune could get us into heaven, then Jesus was wasting His time hanging on that cross.
In fact, when you think about it, He would have been making a complete fool of Himself. A masochistic idiot...:cry:

This is precisely my point. If all we have to do for eternal life and God's grace is to follow Jesus' teachings, then why didn't He just come to earth, do his teachings, and then live out the rest of His life? What was the whole "dying on the cross" thing about? Did he not die for our sins? If we say he didn't, then what does His death on the cross mean?

Here's a whole page of verses that speak about what Jesus did for us:
What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Death ?
 
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Neogaia777

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Jesus told the one rich man (if he wanted to be "perfect") to sell off everything he owned and give the value of the things sold to the poor and follow after Jesus.

He DID NOT say this to EVERY man, nor every rich man... The reason is stated in the Bible as to WHY he told this one rich man this, and it says "For he was tied to many possessions" But, as long as a rich man is not "tied" to the things he owns, he is allowed to be rich, but VERY FEW people can actually "do" this successfully, Which is why Jesus made a point of stating how hard it would be for a rich person to get into heaven...

I like, and it's like the line from the movie: "Fight Club" when the main charachter's alter-ego explains why he destroyed the main charachters possessions, when he said "The things you own, end up owning you." And this is true of many people...

Owning things is not a sin, except for when the things you own, end up owning you...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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This is precisely my point. If all we have to do for eternal life and God's grace is to follow Jesus' teachings, then why didn't He just come to earth, do his teachings, and then live out the rest of His life? What was the whole "dying on the cross" thing about? Did he not die for our sins? If we say he didn't, then what does His death on the cross mean?

Here's a whole page of verses that speak about what Jesus did for us:
What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Death ?

One point your missing about why Jesus died, was to rise again and show us "proof" of the afterlife, for those who followed him and lived their life according to his advice. And following his advice is not impossible, but is actually in our best interest and is the key as to how to truly be at peace with (within) ourselves.

God Bless!
 
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