The impossible ethic

[Boidae]

truth and honesty ...beget truth and honesty.

I guess the opposite of that is, lies and deceit beget lies and deceit.

 

[BryanW92]

You could try responding to the topic instead of focusing on me.

The topic has been responded to ad infinitum. Just about everyone agrees that it is impossible for a society to function where everyone works "for love" with no form of money or compensation other than "love".

You claim that it is possible.

We ask for your experiences that prove that it is possible, even on a personal scale, for a significant period of time.

You refuse and claim that we need to read the scripture that you provide.

We read it. We accept it as a teaching, but not a command.

You say that there is no difference.

You stop responding to any logical argument and just focus on statements where people say "it won't work" and then you go back to step 1.

You are the one telling us that this works. You are the one saying that we are all wrong, confused, distracted, and ignoring Christ. You are the one who brought this up. You are the one quoting the Jesus Christians.

It is now your responsibility to either "put up or shut up". Do you live a money-free lifestyle without job, welfare, or any other form of regular income or stored wealth?

Just a simple Yes or No will suffice for now.

 

[BryanW92]

It's interesting that you feel a need to say this even though I never claimed that I am. I'll take it as a compliment. ^.^

It isn't meant as one. It is a warning to those who read your posts.

For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. (Mat 24:5 ESV)

 

[Angelquill]

Jesus said "if you love Me, keep my commandments".
He would not insist we do this if it were impossible.
I would answer the OP in this manner:

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me...

 

[Angelquill]

I have a problem with the idea that Jesus gave us instructions that He knew we could not follow, in order to set us up for persecution. Or am I misunderstanding the OP?

I think He was telling us not to perform for an audience, but rather to keep what we do between ourselves and God. You don't feed a hungry child for the applause of men, you do it because the kid is hungry. Does that mean that you purposely wait till nobody is around to slip him a meal?
Meantime, he's still hungry....

Seriously, what do you really care what other people might think? If they see you feed the child, and tell you how great you are, you know that you are still an "unprofitable servant", don't you? The praise of men means nothing.

OH, and btw, the instructions to sell all that you have and give to the poor were given to one specific person, known to us as "the rich young ruler". You know that Peter kept his fishing boat, where Jesus often preached, and his house, where Jesus was a guest. You didn't notice Him asking the women who followed Him and supported His ministry with their own funds to give it all away, did you? Of course, they were giving it away, weren't they?
And didn't they have a money bag? Judas carried it, didn't he?

It is not a matter of what you give or who sees it, I think, but rather a matter of your motives. Of course, we all like to be thought well of, but if that is your reason for feeding that hungry kid, then you've gotten what you wanted... If your reason is simply that the kid is hungry, and you really don't care what anyone else thinks, then your heart is closer to Jesus' heart, and He will see and reward you openly... You do it out of love and for no other reason, and the heart of God always responds to love...

I think you might need to re read the gospels...but that is just my opinion.

 

[tremble]

Jesus said "if you love Me, keep my commandments".
He would not insist we do this if it were impossible.
I would answer the OP in this manner:

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me...

Hi Angel. Thanks for that positive response. I think a large part of the reason why Jesus was so intent on obedience is because he knows better than us that he really does have the answers to life.

We find it difficult to see that sometimes, especially when he asks us to make radical lifestyle changes which require us to let go of something we want, are likely to frighten us or which appear to contradict all our practical experience.

The commands are there to protect us from our own ignorance. We become like little children willing to do what daddy tells us even if we don't understand why. Like new born babes we will trust that daddy is there to care for us, not hurt us. We don't understand the reasoning or we don't see how it's good for us or we are fearful, but we do it anyway just because daddy tells us to. After some time practising we will become less fearful. We will become more mature in our understanding of the reasons behind the rules and they will cease to be commands for us. We will choose to do them because we believe they are right to do.

 

[tremble]

I have a problem with the idea that Jesus gave us instructions that He knew we could not follow, in order to set us up for persecution. Or am I misunderstanding the OP?

Yes, I think there is a misunderstanding. I also do not believe Jesus gave us instructions that he knew we could not follow. That is the lesson of the article; Jesus' teachings are possible. That does not mean we will never fail. Grace is there to pick us up where we fall short, but we need to try our best to conform to the values of Heaven. That is what Jesus' teachings represent; the values of Heaven.

I think He was telling us not to perform for an audience, but rather to keep what we do between ourselves and God. You don't feed a hungry child for the applause of men, you do it because the kid is hungry. Does that mean that you purposely wait till nobody is around to slip him a meal?
Meantime, he's still hungry....

Agreed. Helping others should be done because they need help and not because we want others to think well of us.

Seriously, what do you really care what other people might think? If they see you feed the child, and tell you how great you are, you know that you are still an "unprofitable servant", don't you? The praise of men means nothing.

You are right that the praises of people are nothing compared to the praise of God and yet some of us still have problems with wanting others to think well of us. I know I struggle with that at times. Thank God for grace. ^.^

OH, and btw, the instructions to sell all that you have and give to the poor were given to one specific person, known to us as "the rich young ruler".

Actually, there are several other references to this. You can view a list of references on this thread, post #6. http://www.christianforums.com/t7826661/

You know that Peter kept his fishing boat, where Jesus often preached, and his house, where Jesus was a guest

.

In some places Jesus said to sell all and in others he said to forsake all. He did not teach against people using material items, but he did teach that we should let go of personal ownership and share all things in common with our brothers and sisters. So, it is not inconsistent with the forsake all teaching for them to use boats, houses or whatever.

You didn't notice Him asking the women who followed Him and supported His ministry with their own funds to give it all away, did you?

LK 8:2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

LK 8:3 And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

You are right that we don't see evidence of him specifically asking women to forsake all, but we do see evidence of him giving the forsake all command to his followers in general.

And didn't they have a money bag? Judas carried it, didn't he?

There is a difference between using material goods and working for the purpose of gaining material goods.

It is not a matter of what you give or who sees it, I think, but rather a matter of your motives.

Agreed, though I'd suggest that if we have the right motives towards God (and if we want heavenly rewards) then we will make efforts to perform our giving in secret.

Of course, we all like to be thought well of, but if that is your reason for feeding that hungry kid, then you've gotten what you wanted... If your reason is simply that the kid is hungry, and you really don't care what anyone else thinks, then your heart is closer to Jesus' heart, and He will see and reward you openly... You do it out of love and for no other reason, and the heart of God always responds to love..

Agreed.

I think you might need to re read the gospels...but that is just my opinion

It's good advice. I plan to read and re-read the gospels for the rest of my life. ^.^

 

[Boidae]

It's good advice. I plan to read and re-read the gospels for the rest of my life. ^.^

Are you reading the rest of the Bible as well?

 

[Angelquill]

Even I, who when sunisout mentioned Tremble being part of the Jesus Christians, defended Tremble saying that he has said that he wasn't and took him at his word. Today, I'm not so sure.

Over time the things that Tremble says is word-for-word the same things that those who were posting here last year who are part of the Jesus Christians were saying. The same responses to questions asked or rebuttal of your point.

I want to believe that Tremble is being honest with us, but the evidence is starting to point the other way. They, the people last year, lied about disbanding, so why not lie about not being part of the Jesus Christians? It wouldn't surprise me.

I never heard of the "Jesus Christians". And I can't seem to find any real info online. Could someone please fill me in??

 

[Angelquill]

Hi Angel. Thanks for that positive response. I think a large part of the reason why Jesus was so intent on obedience is because he knows better than us that he really does have the answers to life.

We find it difficult to see that sometimes, especially when he asks us to make radical lifestyle changes which require us to let go of something we want, are likely to frighten us or which appear to contradict all our practical experience.

The commands are there to protect us from our own ignorance. We become like little children willing to do what daddy tells us even if we don't understand why. Like new born babes we will trust that daddy is there to care for us, not hurt us. We don't understand the reasoning or we don't see how it's good for us or we are fearful, but we do it anyway just because daddy tells us to. After some time practising we will become less fearful. We will become more mature in our understanding of the reasons behind the rules and they will cease to be commands for us. We will choose to do them because we believe they are right to do.

Okay, now I'm confused. Didn't you say that it was impossible?

 

[Aldebaran]

I never heard of the "Jesus Christians". And I can't seem to find any real info online. Could someone please fill me in??

Who are the Jesus Christians?

 

[Alithis]

Jesus said "if you love Me, keep my commandments".
He would not insist we do this if it were impossible.
I would answer the OP in this manner:

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me...

I have a problem with the idea that Jesus gave us instructions that He knew we could not follow, in order to set us up for persecution. Or am I misunderstanding the OP?

I think He was telling us not to perform for an audience, but rather to keep what we do between ourselves and God. You don't feed a hungry child for the applause of men, you do it because the kid is hungry. Does that mean that you purposely wait till nobody is around to slip him a meal?
Meantime, he's still hungry....

Seriously, what do you really care what other people might think? If they see you feed the child, and tell you how great you are, you know that you are still an "unprofitable servant", don't you? The praise of men means nothing.

OH, and btw, the instructions to sell all that you have and give to the poor were given to one specific person, known to us as "the rich young ruler". You know that Peter kept his fishing boat, where Jesus often preached, and his house, where Jesus was a guest. You didn't notice Him asking the women who followed Him and supported His ministry with their own funds to give it all away, did you? Of course, they were giving it away, weren't they?
And didn't they have a money bag? Judas carried it, didn't he?

It is not a matter of what you give or who sees it, I think, but rather a matter of your motives. Of course, we all like to be thought well of, but if that is your reason for feeding that hungry kid, then you've gotten what you wanted... If your reason is simply that the kid is hungry, and you really don't care what anyone else thinks, then your heart is closer to Jesus' heart, and He will see and reward you openly... You do it out of love and for no other reason, and the heart of God always responds to love...

I think you might need to re read the gospels...but that is just my opinion.

great verse and good observations .

I often used to wonder how the lord said if you love me keep my commandments .... and then the entire Gospel is about being set free from the law ..
so where there is apparent contradiction can only mean my comprehension is lacking because God is not wrong .

for me the definition came ,thus far , in the understanding he gave me of the parable of the judgment when the lord says .. " and in that day they wil say Lord Lord ..we cast out demons in your name and we did this and that in your name ... (all notable good works) and he says to them ,depart from me you workers of iniquity ..."

I used to wonder why the lord says that to folks who were doing what appeared to be the right thing . and the lord took me to where he said .."my sheep HEAR my voice and I Know them and they follow ME "..
he said such people know of him and so do good outer things but they do not listen to him in their hearts they put their fingers in their ears and shut out what he is speaking to them about in there personal live and do not obey what he is commanding them to do in their own life ,, there is not truth and honesty . he showed me the commands he is talking about are himself talking to us .(in harmony with his written word ) but we can say ... the bible says I must preach the gospel every where .. and off we go .. but the lord says ,I want you to go to new zealand and do it there but we go to Australia because in the bible it says every where... so we impose our will ,based on written word ,over the living will of the lord Jesus.

This is not obedience it is rebellion and so while good in appearance is unjust and so iniquity .
in the book of acts we see this took place ,,but the apostles did not rebel but obeyed. they were headed to one place to preach and the Spirit of the lord Jesus forbade them and sent them elsewhere ... even though in the written word the lord told them to preach the gospel to ALL the world they still had to listen to his voice as to where and when .

and the same goes with selling all your goods ..if a man says you must sell all and live by faith .. then to do so is to listen to that man ..if the lord has not told you to do so ,you may be doing so in disobedience to them lord Jesus in order to listen to a man .

of course if the lord is telling you to do so by his Holy Spirit ,,I advice you obey lol. there is no other way .

the lord Jesus is both the written and the living resurrected word of God ... "listen to "HIM"
people often go round doing many "things" but they do so to make up for ..or out rightly avoid doing the one thing the lord Jesus is speaking to them about in their own heart .. they ignore and disobey .. and that, is why he says to them , depart from me you workers of iniquity.

 

[tremble]

Jesus wants us to obey him because he knows better than we do. He has the answers to life's problems, but because of our fear, ignorance, and greed we often do not appreciate his answers.

God wants us to change and almost always we are afraid of change, so Jesus gave commands. Even if we are frightened or we don't understand or see, we should still do what he told us to do because he knows better than us.

All that talk about "the law" is just a convenient way to disregard change.

 

[Alithis]

?All what talk about law?it was hardley mentioned.
And this is my command he said... That you love one another..
..as pointed out it is about relationship ..not following a book but rather listening to the one the book is talking about.
The book is the written record,not the commander..that's the Lord Jesus.the manifest person of God

 

[tremble]

?All what talk about law?it was hardley mentioned.
And this is my command he said... That you love one another..

How can we say we love God if we refuse to follow his teachings?

..as pointed out it is about relationship

How can we say we have a relationship with him if we refuse to follow his teachings?

..not following a book but rather listening to the one the book is talking about.
The book is the written record,not the commander..that's the Lord Jesus.the manifest person of God

I believe this is selective arguing on your part and it shows your bias. If you were consistent then you'd have to argue that repentance is nothing more than following a book. If you were consistent then you'd have to argue that forgiving others is nothing more than following a book. If you were consistent then you'd argue that the command to love God is nothing more than following a book because those teachings are also contained in the Bible.

You only seem to bring up "the law" and "following a book" when it comes to teachings which you personally disagree with.

 

[Alithis]

No one repented from following a book.but due to a conviction of sin revealed to each by the living God.
Millions of people read the bible yet make no change to their behaviour .
So it is not the book but the conviction of the Holy Spirit which works Godly repentance,as opposed to intellectual repentance.
Again ,it is about relationship and the truth that the Lord Jesus has established righteousness for us.when we accept that by faith we enter into his righteousness and he begins to live out that through us.
It is not good to exclude God from his teaching.he is not a book,the book speaks of him.

 

[tremble]

Millions of people read the bible yet make no change to their behaviour .
So it is not the book but the conviction of the Holy Spirit which works Godly repentance,as opposed to intellectual repentance.

Interesting. Can you explain a bit more about this conviction? What does it feel like and what is likely to trigger it? What are some of the ways that people respond to conviction, whether good or bad?

 

[Alithis]

Conviction is when a knowing of the state of my own heart is known ,seen,by God and I stand therefore exposed before him .I am thereby compelled to respond by fleeing in rebellion or asking forgivness .I can't speak for others but in general terms.as ultimately all response comes down to these two.
Conviction is the Holy spirit proving to me by Devine witness that I am guilty,for the singular purpose of bringing me to forgiveness,repentance and reconciliation to God.
As opposed to condemnation which accuses of guilt with purpose to condemn without hope.that's what Satan our accuser does.

A man can hear the ten commandments for 50 years and be unmoved...then one day the Holy Spirit speaks to his heart and he falls down in tears admitting his sin to God asking to be saved.this happened in the thousands during the Welsh revival ... People are not saved by us.. They are told by us about salvation.but no amount of selling all ones possession will save another.

 

[BryanW92]

God wants us to change and almost always we are afraid of change, so Jesus gave commands. Even if we are frightened or we don't understand or see, we should still do what he told us to do because he knows better than us.

All that talk about "the law" is just a convenient way to disregard change.

As much as I've tried to resist it, I think I have been profoundly changed by these discussions over change, obedience, and teachings. Several years ago, I read Bonhoeffer's "Costly Grace" and he says the same things as Tremble, only in a different way. At the time, I intepreted it in a a'la carte "do what you can and don't worry about the rest" kind of way.

But, I'm coming to realize that total change is the only thing acceptable to God. If you can't change or won't change, then a partial change is a waste of your time and God's. Of course, he has infinite time so it doesn't cost him anything for us to try and fail.

So, the bottom line is that if we can't succeed, it is best that we don't try. After all, Bonhoeffer was hanged by the Nazis using a wire (the most painful method of hanging). Am I prepared to do that? I doubt it.

I recently left the United Methodist Church and have been searching for a new church home, but nothing appeals to me. I thought that I was being overly-cautious to avoid being in another church like the one I just left, but perhaps the problem is that I know I can't change 100%, so I'm trying to find an excuse to give up Christianity.

The rich, young ruler walked away sad. But, since he was never getting into the kingdom anyway no matter how hard he tried, he probably had a good life once he got past the rejection by Jesus. His example is probably the best one for most of us who can't completely follow the teachings of Jesus (narrow path vs broad path and all that stuff).

 

[BryanW92]

I think Steve Martin sums up my problem very well. Even if I try to obey and get rid of everything, I would start accumulating new stuff immediately. It is foolish to try when you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you will fail.

The Jerk (10/10) Movie CLIP - That's All I Need! (1979) HD - YouTube