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The implications of the cross

Hikarifuru

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Can you tell me what you think the effect of the principles of

1. The wages of sin is death
2. Humans are tainted and require redemption
3. The death on the cross was the perfect way to save and purify mankind, the most perfect and moral act

has been on our society?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Can you tell me what you think the effect of the principles of

1. The wages of sin is death
2. Humans are tainted and require redemption
3. The death on the cross was the perfect way to save and purify mankind, the most perfect and moral act

has been on our society?

I'd say mostly irrelevant.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Harry3142

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Dean W-

As Joshua pointed out, the most important act in that sequence of events was Jesus' resurrection. But in order to conquer death through that resurrection, he first had to go through the process of dying. There was no way around it. in order to defeat death's power, he first had to accept that power for himself.
 
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Hikarifuru

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Wow Dean,

I'm struck by the fact that you neglected the most significant event of Christianity...

Why don't you ask what effect THE RESURRECTION has had on our society???

Well the reason I didn't mention the resurrection is similair to why you didn't answer with what I actually asked you for. As you probably know from our discussions in the past I view the things I mentioned as really bad and the resurrection concept doesn't change to that to me. Then you responded by simply providing why you feel my position is wrong, when I never actually provided my position or said I would like to discuss that. You're simply combating what you my pov is, even though that pov isn't a part of the thread and isn't a part of what I asked.

You didn't tell me what these concepts did or mean like I asked, you simply provided why you feel that they aren't as bad as I think.
 
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Hikarifuru

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Dean W-

As Joshua pointed out, the most important act in that sequence of events was Jesus' resurrection. But in order to conquer death through that resurrection, he first had to go through the process of dying. There was no way around it. in order to defeat death's power, he first had to accept that power for himself.

Well I wasn't trying to argue that these concepts are bad or destruction I wasn't making an argument at all... I was asking what you think these concepts cause in our society.
 
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Joshua260

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Well the reason I didn't mention the resurrection is similair to why you didn't answer with what I actually asked you for. As you probably know from our discussions in the past I view the things I mentioned as really bad and the resurrection concept doesn't change to that to me. Then you responded by simply providing why you feel my position is wrong, when I never actually provided my position or said I would like to discuss that. You're simply combating what you my pov is, even though that pov isn't a part of the thread and isn't a part of what I asked.

You didn't tell me what these concepts did or mean like I asked, you simply provided why you feel that they aren't as bad as I think.

Again, wow! You got all that out of my reply? All I did was ask you "Why don't you ask what effect THE RESURRECTION has had on our society???" Yes I know I didn't answer your question, but my point is that you should be asking a better and much more important question, such as "what effect has the resurrection had on our society". It's kind of like someone who takes their car to the shop and then asks the mechanic "how come my radio doesn't work?", while the mechanic would rather be talking to the customer about the fact that he has a faulty brake line that could cause his death the very next time he pulls onto the highway. But the customer replies, "I didn't ask you about my brake line! I want to know why my radio doesn't work!"

Anyway, ok, I'll try to answer your questions...

Can you tell me what you think the effect of the principles of

1. The wages of sin is death
2. Humans are tainted and require redemption
3. The death on the cross was the perfect way to save and purify mankind, the most perfect and moral act

has been on our society?

OK, well it seems to me like Christianity has exploded throughout the world since Jesus walked the earth so I would say that #1 and #2, coupled with the OT law, seem to have brought many to the realization that they need a savior. I'm not sure I agree with your wording in #3. I think it is better to say that Jesus was the only one capable of paying our sin debt in full. It wouldn't have done anybody any good if he was all God and not man nor all man and not God. The only one who could have made this whole thing work is the one and only God-man, Jesus Christ.

But like I pointed out in my first reply, this conversation is to me like watching "Jesus Christ, Superstar", which used to be one of my favorite movies as a new Christian until I saw the fatal flaw in the movie..it ENDS at the crucifixion. So...I threw it away. What did Jesus tell Peter when he walked towards Jesus on the water? Did he not tell him to keep his eyes on him? As soon as Peter took his focus off of Jesus, he began sinking in the water. Jesus is what the bible is all about. Without him, it's all for nothing. ...Off soapbox...lol. ;)
 
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Hikarifuru

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well you said you were shocked and you know me Joshua.. I really doubt you were shocked and you should have been able to predict how I would receive your response. You probably already know some of what I think about the resurrection.

Thanks for answering my questions.
 
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Joshua260

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well you said you were shocked and you know me Joshua.. I really doubt you were shocked and you should have been able to predict how I would receive your response. You probably already know some of what I think about the resurrection.

Thanks for answering my questions.

Your welcome. No, I don't really know what you think about the resurrection, but there's really quite a lot of good evidence supporting the fact that the resurrection actually occurred. If I were an atheist, and if I really wanted to know the truth, THAT'S what I would focus on. In fact, that is the specific event that God himself has left for seekers to consider.

I just remembered what the subject of the post is..."the implications of the cross". A much better subject would be "the implications of the resurrection"!

I know you don't want to get off the current topic...I just hope you will also devote more time to the resurrection instead in the future...continue on.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'd say mostly irrelevant.

-CryptoLutheran

Possibly worth expanding on what I mean here.

What I mean is that the Cross isn't a "civilization project", at its heart isn't the moral reformation of human society, but the restitution of the world, of humanity itself, etc.

The Cross in itself is perhaps completely counter-intuitive, and offers a radically other way of perceiving how we live in the world and with our neighbors and how we conduct interpersonal relationships. Because it rearranges the focus not from producing a surviving, lasting societal legacy; but of mutual self-surrender and sacrifice.

If we do want to talk about the impact on society, I would point to Christianity's historic emphasis on social justice, on reaching the poor, the hungry, and the needy. That Christians have, historically, understood themselves to have a moral and ethical obligation toward the disenfranchised. An example might be St. Basil's concept of the "New City". That Christians should take their calling before and toward their fellow man seriously, as servants of sacrifice.

Now has this always been the fruit of a predominantly Christian society? Of course not. History reveals this time and again. But then, Christians have never been called to be the dominants of society, not to be the leaders of civilization. The City of God and the City of Man shouldn't be conflated; a healthy distinction between the "two kingdoms" is, I think, a very important thing.

The Cross does not teach us how to perform empire. But it can teach us how to exist in the midst of empire; as alien pilgrims.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Joshua260

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I dont agree that that is more important and I'm not going to seriously investigate a man coming back from the dead

Take care Joshua

Really?? All of Christianity hangs on whether or not Jesus rose from the dead. You should know this since you've said you studied to become a preacher. Yes, we've talked for a while but you still continue to amaze me sometimes with your responses. I'm simply amazed that you would spend so much time talking about Christianity and totally ignore its founding doctrine. Out of respect for the forum rules, I'll not continue, but I'm just trying to help you. I think you should be more concerned that "your brakes are faulty instead of why the radio doesn't work".
 
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Hikarifuru

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Really?? All of Christianity hangs on whether or not Jesus rose from the dead. You should know this since you've said you studied to become a preacher. Yes, we've talked for a while but you still continue to amaze me sometimes with your responses. I'm simply amazed that you would spend so much time talking about Christianity and totally ignore its founding doctrine. I would think that anyone who wamted to have a serious discussion about our faith would at least spend some time researching our most important "truth test".

Bur you'd still rather talk about "why the radio doesn't work"?

I am very well versed on Christian theology, I dont claim to be an expert on christian history or the historical legitimacy of a man returning from the dead but that is the most rediculous idea from a logical position and I dont entertain it. I am well aware of what it means from a theological position
 
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aiki

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I just don't get it. You post a question or series of questions, then wait for responses to which you reply with a curt "thank you," or a protestation of being misunderstood, or with remarks that obliquely or directly deride the Christian faith. You have made it crystal clear you have only a rather morbid and antagonistic interest in Christianity, so why do you keep going over essentially the same ground again and again? If you understand the faith as well as you claim, what is it that you hope to achieve in the Exploring Christianity section of the site? You already understand Christianity, so what is there, really, for you to explore? We know you hate our faith, which you have made clear many times. In fact, you have been very consistent in declaring how ridiculous and repugnant you find Christian theology and doctrine. What, then, are you doing here? I wonder if you even really know.

Selah.
 
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aiki

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I have attempted to answer this before but you are probably the most difficult person to conversate with on this site that I have met. I am ok with you wondering.

I'm sure the Pharisees felt the same way about talking to Jesus - and perhaps for the same reasons.

Selah.
 
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