the illusion of Evolution

2PhiloVoid

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I accept the biblical account of creation in every respect. The bible is God's word and He was there when it happened none of these so called experts where there. Interperting so called evidence is not the same.

... would it be too much to say that Moses (or the author of Genesis) wasn't there either? :dontcare:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Is not the bible the inspired word of God? I believe that it is! How about you?

Sure, I do believe that, BUT I won't define inspiration the way you do. And it's a huge jump within a hasty generalization for you to say that you KNOW that God just made an overnight deposit into the brain of Moses so he could write the book of Genesis.

Yeah, admittedly, I don't think the book of Genesis was written via such a deposit. That might work for those who proffer for the value of the Qur'an as a "book from heaven," but not for the Bible.
 
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Trusting in Him

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Sure, I do believe that, BUT I won't define inspiration the way you do. And it's a huge jump within a hasty generalization for you to say that you KNOW that God just made an overnight deposit into the brain of Moses so he could write the book of Genesis.

Yeah, admittedly, I don't think the book of Genesis was written via such a deposit. That might work for those who profer for the value of the Qu'ran as a "book from heaven," but not for the Bible.

The bible says that "All scripture is God breathed and written by holy men as led by God". That'll do for me! I have no difficulty in believing that at all.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The bible says that "All scripture is God breathed and written by holy men as led by God". That'll do for me! I have no difficulty in believing that at all.

Sure. I'm glad that's good enough for you and that's fine if it is. But the fact is, this specific statement "All scripture is God breathed and written by holy men as led by God" in NO WAY gives us ANY detail about how and in what ways the various authors of the biblical writings were so informed.

So, I'd rather not make any major (false) assumptions by trying to fill in our gaps in knowledge.
 
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lifepsyop

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Not surprisingly, when the function of DNA was discovered, genetic analyses showed the same relationships between living things that had been inferred by anatomy, fossil evidence, and other data.


This paragraph is loaded with assumptions.
Assuming anatomy points to Evolution.
Assuming fossil evidence points to Evolution.
You’re just casually inserting them as if the assumptions should just be taken for granted.

And then assuming correlation of genetic and anatomic similarity is some big reveal of Evolution, which it isn’t. If there were no correlation, the assumption would simply be that Evolution does not conserve genomes, which instead become indiscernible noise, much the way ‘molecular clocks’ are now regarded.


This is how Evolution theory works. Evolution itself is really just a vague cosmological idea continually settling around a changing landscape of data. Once the data becomes fairly well known (e.g. general fossil trends throughout the geologic column) evolutionists then magically adopt it as “their data”... then make predictions based off of that data, and then call the successful predictions confirmation of Evolution.

When Evolution’s predictions fail (such as with molecular clocks) then it’s just chalked up to the progress of science. And finally, evolutionists then re-equate Evolution with science itself, and so even its failed predictions become absorbed as a strange sort of confirmation.



But we know that only common descent accounts for genetic relatedness. And we can test this by looking at the genes of organisms of known descent.


I'm having trouble locating an argument here.

You can’t even account for genetics to begin with. You’re trying to explain the origin of mountains by their erosion rates. Common descent is degradation over time. Nothing about observed mechanisms suggest upwards creative momentum or the assembly of fundamentally distinct and functional body plans.

Of course the theistic evolutionist can just say ‘God did it’, but I’m not sure where that gets you here. Either way you’re just making huge assumptions that seem to run a lot more self-evidently counter to observation than in harmony with it.


And here, you confuse homologous structures with analogous structures. Our forelimbs are very unlike the forelimbs of a horse. They are homologous; the same bones are in each of our limbs, although greatly modified to different purposes.


So they are similar bones with similar molecular structures governing those bones. Similar things are similar.


The wings of pterosaurs and wings of bats are analogous; they are very similar, but are derived from different tissues. This is why anyone with even a slight familiarity with biology finds your argument to be absurd.


So they are different tissues with different molecular structures governing those tissues. Dissimilar things are dissimilar.


You are putting words in my mouth to try and win an argument I never made. I never brought up homology or analogy. Those are loaded terms that assume evolution is true, but then again that is all you are doing, assuming evolution is true. I'm just under no obligation to accept those assumptions and I actually reject them entirely.



Evolution has no moral or theological implications whatever. It's just the way this world works. You might was well say gravity supports deism or pantheism.


Yea, Evolution has no moral or theological implications except for a denial of the fundamental works of the God of the Bible. The God of Israel seems to have a rather jealous desire for his people to believe in Him and what He has done.

Let God be true and all men liars.
 
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Derek1111

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I mean proof in the same vein I use it for evolution.
It comes back to the man who claims the skeleton is Jesus. He may have every letter after his name and done all the tests he can do, but it is still just some man's word. A fallen, imperfect human being. Scientist are not God. Those who follow him have more faith in that man's words than in Gods.
God says Jesus is risen, this scientists says no here is his skeleton. You have a choice.
You can go with the evidence or you can go with what God says. It is a cross roads. You either let your soul, that is your mind, the logical side of yourself dictate and follow that or you listen to your spirit and you step out in faith and trust.

Peter tried to do that when he stepped off the boat. That first step of his onto deep water in a storm that is an example of 'reckless faith' What stopped him walking the whole way to Jesus? He started to engage with the facts. The facts were he was walking over very deep water 4 km out in a storm. His logical mind told him he would die and normally his mind would be right, but the mind is not always right when it comes to matters of faith, it will lead you astray as it did Peter.

A scientist is just a man or woman. They are no different to you or I or anybody else. They have their own bias that they work from and limitations this world places. They are not some unbiased paragons.

It is no different than the proofs of evolution. Again people place it on the level of being gospel instead of viewing it as man trying to understand the world with only half the pieces of the puzzle. Man attempting to gather information about something that isn't his to know and can never know in this life. They put together an incorrect picture and Satan ensures it is promoted and believed as gospel.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

They shall deceive the elect. Pharaohs magicians made snakes slither around the floor- it was a deception. Evolution flourishes- it is a deception. We have men claiming to be women- it is a deception. A skeleton of Jesus is found? It is also a deception.

The world is descending into chaos were evil is called good and good is called evil.
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

It is at such a time that people need to hold ever more tightly to the word of God. Science gives us many things but when it comes to God's word and if God's word differs then it's science that has it wrong not God's word. If God can never lie we must believe everything in scripture over man. Scripture claims to be the breathed word of God able to divide between spirit and soul. It is not claiming to simply be a helpful book. I would rather have blind faith then be swayed by science.

Baffling. So you are genuinely saying that you would still believe even if your faith were disproven?

Do you not see how mad that is?
 
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The Barbarian

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Not surprisingly, when the function of DNA was discovered, genetic analyses showed the same relationships between living things that had been inferred by anatomy, fossil evidence, and other data.

This paragraph is loaded with assumptions.

Inferences from evidence. You've confused logic with assumptions. For example, we know that genetic data shows descent, because we can test that idea on organisms of known descent.

Assuming anatomy points to Evolution.

Inferences again. Hence, the difference between analogous and homologous organs, only possible if evolution had occurred. Would you like to learn about that?

Assuming fossil evidence points to Evolution.

Even informed YE creationists openly admit that fossil data is very good evidence for evolution.
Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species — include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms
and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation — of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates — has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile
groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacodontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39

Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.

YE creationist Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist understanding of Transitional Forms

You’re just casually denying the evidence. But mere denial really does you no good at all. If you'd like more detail, we can talk about it. Want to see it?
 
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The Barbarian

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Who cares how God created these things, He has told us all that we need to know about it. If it was to our advantage to know more about this, I think that He would have told us!

Today's winner.
 
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The Barbarian

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Baffling. So you are genuinely saying that you would still believe even if your faith were disproven?

Do you not see how mad that is?

That's kind of a caricature of faith. Mark Twain (no friend of religion) once wrote "faith is believing what you know ain't so." That's not how it works. Or at least not how it should work.
 
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Derek1111

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That's kind of a caricature of faith. Mark Twain (no friend of religion) once wrote "faith is believing what you know ain't so." That's not how it works. Or at least not how it should work.
I'm perfectly happy with the Heb 11v1 definition of faith.

What I'm not happy with is blind faith.

Our faith rests on evidence and reality, even if they're not always visible. Not things that aren't true. My question to coffee4u is: imagine someone disproved some key element of your faith; would you still believe? She seems to say yes.
 
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Trusting in Him

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That's kind of a caricature of faith. Mark Twain (no friend of religion) once wrote "faith is believing what you know ain't so." That's not how it works. Or at least not how it should work.

Yes! Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) Yes, we are to believe in things which we cannot see or prove, if that's what it takes!
 
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The Barbarian

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'm having trouble locating an argument here.

You can’t even account for genetics to begin with.

Actually, there was a time when scientists suspected genes didn't really exist, and were just a useful abstraction. But that was a long time ago. We know precisely what genes are and how they work.

You’re trying to explain the origin of mountains by their erosion rates.

No, you have that, wrong, too. The fact of evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life. If God magically poofed the first living things into existence, evolution and genetics would still work exactly as they do. Darwin, for example, thought God just created the first living things. But even if the earth brought forth animals, it would still work as it does.

Common descent is degradation over time.

Well, that's a testable assumption. Do we have examples of populations evolving to become more fit over time? Yes, there are many such examples that belie your assumption. Would you like to learn about some of them?

Nothing about observed mechanisms suggest upwards creative momentum or the assembly of fundamentally distinct and functional body plans.

As your fellow YE creationist, Kurt Wise, admits, there is "very good evidence" for this. Would you like to see some of the examples he cites?

Of course the theistic evolutionist can just say ‘God did it’,

That's what Darwin assumed for the origin of life. But as you just learned, that's not part of evolutionary theory.

Clearly, you don't know much about the evidence; here's the link to Dr. Wise's article; he's a YE creationist who knows a great deal more about it than you do. Perhaps he can help:
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j09_2/j09_2_216-222.pdf

And there's this from another YE creationist who is familiar with the evidence:
Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true. I'm motivated this morning by reading yet another clueless, well-meaning person pompously declaring that evolution is a failure. People who say that are either unacquainted with the inner workings of science or unacquainted with the evidence for evolution. (Technically, they could also be deluded or lying, but that seems rather uncharitable to say. Oops.)

Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective. Evolution itself is not flawed or without evidence. Please don't be duped into thinking that somehow evolution itself is a failure. Please don't idolize your own ability to reason. Faith is enough. If God said it, that should settle it.

The truth about evolution
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Who cares how God created these things, He has told us all that we need to know about it. If it was to our advantage to know more about this, I think that He would have told us!

I care. And your flippancy in no way disparages me from that fact that I do care or that I SHOULD care, or that science enterprises that deal with the past (such as Paleontology, Geology and Anthropology) should just all shut down and be dispensed with. Or do you want Biblical Archaeology to go away as well?

Still, on some level, I agree with you that if the Bible has truth in it, then to some degree we're justified upon that condition to think that we have what we need in Sacred Form within the Scriptures. :cool:

So be it!
 
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Trusting in Him

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God is not limited by anything and that includes the laws of nature and man's scientific knowledge. Creation was the result of God's miraculous power. Take away our owe of who He is and what He is able to do and what's left?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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God is not limited by anything and that includes the laws of nature and man's scientific knowledge. Creation was the result of God's miraculous power. Take away our owe of who is and what He is able to do and what's left?

Laws of nature? Where in the Bible are those spoken of?
 
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The Barbarian

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And here, you confuse homologous structures with analogous structures. Our forelimbs are very unlike the forelimbs of a horse. They are homologous; the same bones are in each of our limbs, although greatly modified to different purposes.

So they are similar bones

No, they are structurally very different. In many different ways. But they are derived from the same genes, the same embryonic tissues, under control of the same homeobox genes. They are homologous.

The wings of pterosaurs and wings of bats are analogous; they are very similar, but are derived from different tissues. This is why anyone with even a slight familiarity with biology finds your argument to be absurd.

So they are different tissues

They are very alike; a layman would not see a difference. They are derived from different structures, but are very similar in shape and function. They are analogous. Creationists see the difference between analogous and homologous structures as a baffling problem. But evolutionary theory explains why they exist.

You are putting words in my mouth to try and win an argument I never made. I never brought up homology or analogy.

You have no concept of either. I get that. It's why you're confused about the issue. And as other creationists admit, it's a huge problem for their doctrines. But your confusion about "similar" is precisely because you don't understand the difference between homologous and analogous structures.

Those are loaded terms that assume evolution is true, but then again that is all you are doing, assuming evolution is true.

Nope. "Homologous" and "analogous" are well-defined and testable. In fact, they don't even absolutely depend on evolution; a deceptive creator could have just made them to appear to be so and faked all the genetic and embryonic data to cover. However, since God is truth, we can ignore that idea.

You can't accept the evidence, because as a YE creationist, you are obligated to the assumptions of your new doctrines.
 
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