The hypocrisy of being "pro-life"

[RaymondG]

God formed us:

God Formed Adam from the dust of the ground....Do you believe that what he did after that was important....or was it inconsequential?

-John experienced joy in Elisabeth's womb

At what age do you believe John was at this time? What age does any fetus have to be to experience joy? And how does this fact relate to the morality of abortion?

God has plans including the time and place of our births:

And God is all powerful and all knowing. Do you believe that God can decree a time and place of birth and have man say "No, Im going to abort" and have Man's will usurp God's will?

 

[SPF]

What happened Raymond, was I being too logical and consistent for you to continue our conversation? Feel free to reply to #437

 

[RaymondG]

I believe there are tragic circumstances in which a doctor is only capable of saving the life of one of his patients, and not both.
...
These situations are not analogous to the 98.5% of abortions...

I believe there is no acceptable reason to abort. No accuse or good/tragic reason you give me to abort, will make me ok with committing this act in any way for any reason.

There are many others who share this point of view. Does this fact make them better or more moral than you because you are accepting or understanding of 1.5% of abortions and they accept none (0%) of it?

What about those that accept 40% of abortions while you accept or understand 1.5% of them....Does this make you better or more moral than they?

It all comes down to how we view the life of a human being. You seem to be willing to discriminate against a human based upon their age and residence. I don't find a justification for this discrimination in Scripture.

Indeed. You seem to view 1.5% of aborted fetuses as morally lesser than the 98.5% of the same, and those already outside of the womb. Why is that? I do not find justification for this "discrimination" in Scripture.

Please explain why you are not as avidly against the termination of these 1.5% of fetuses as you are the others. Why are you able to understand and accept their demise and not the others? Why is their death, not murder and the others are?

And why do you judge the morality of others based on your personal ideas of acceptable and inexcusable "murders," as you call them?

It is ok for others to find 0% excusable, while you find 1.5% excusable and you both be not be condemned? What about those who find 2 or 3 % excusable?

All human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. We don't grow into moral worth, nor does our moral worth change based upon where we reside.

Why dont you feel the same about the 1.5% whose demise you fine tragic but understandable?

Can you provide a reputable, working definition of murder that you find acceptable? Feel free to quote and cite your source. That might help clarify things for discussion sake.

I like this definition the most: "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

It is folly to believe that one can love God or a fetus, whom you cannot see.....and hate their brothers and sisters. pure folly.

This is why the cause of the unborn is better fought for by those filled with love and not condemnation.

 

[RaymondG]

What happened Raymond, was I being too logical and consistent for you to continue our conversation? Feel free to reply to #437

I usually refrain from speaking with those who make false claims and who bring themselves higher by pushing those around them down.....But I'll make an exception in this case.... For I am advocating for the unseen, and not my own beliefs..... are you able to fight for the unborn and refrain from fighting and protecting your beliefs?

 

[SPF]

I believe there is no acceptable reason to abort.

I actually agree with this! I believe that at the very least, the 98.5% of abortions which are performed for convenience reasons are immoral. The rare 1.5% which are for life-saving intervention means I think would be a case by case basis, and I personally don't think in these instances using the term "abortion" is actually reflective of what is going on.

Indeed. You seem to view 1.5% of aborted fetuses as morally lesser than the 98.5% of the same, and those already outside of the womb. Why is that? I do not find justification for this "discrimination" in Scripture.

I certainly don't! I think all human beings are equally inherently morally valuable due to us being created in the Image of God.

Please explain why you are not as avidly against the termination of these 1.5% of fetuses as you are the others. Why are you able to understand and accept their demise and not the others? Why is their death, not murder and the others are?

Ok, here we get down to it! Principles are what we use to determine the morality of practices. Let's consider this example:

A pregnant woman is in a severe car accident and is rushed to the hospital. Unfortunately, she is only 13 weeks pregnant, and her unborn child cannot survive outside the womb.

She is conscious, and she is telling anyone who can hear her that they must save her baby, that she wants her baby.

Enter the doctor. Based upon our understanding that all human beings possess equal inherent moral worth and value, the right outlook for the doctor to take is to consider himself as having 2 patients. His goal is to save both his patients. He wants to save the mother and the unborn child.

However, as the mother is lying their bleeding out, with only minutes left to live, the doctor is faced with the heart-wrenching reality that saving the mother will result in the death of the unborn child.

So the doctor is faced with this moral dilemma - Do nothing and both patients die, mother and child. Save the mother, the child dies. What does the doctor do? Is there anyone who would suggest he should do nothing, allow the mother to bleed out and have both his patients die?

This is representative of the portion of the 1.5% of "abortions" that I would first and foremost not even consider an abortion, but because it currently is counted in the statistic of abortions, I would say that in this example, nobody has acted in an immoral fashion. If you disagree, can you let me know who is in the wrong in this scenario and what they did or didn't do that was immoral?

And why do you judge the morality of others based on your personal ideas of acceptable and inexcusable "murders," as you call them?

I don't understand the question. Morality is objective because it stems from the immutable and perfect nature of God. So even saying the "morality of others" doesn't compute as morality isn't subjective. I judge actions as moral or immoral against the objective moral standard given to us by an immutable and perfect God.

I like this definition the most: "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

That's a great saying, certainly. Problem is that it's not a definition. That saying doesn't define the term "murder". You should know that you can't use the word you're trying to define in the definition itself.

So again I'll ask - can you provide a working definition for the term murder? That might make this discussion easier, if we have a definition for the disputed term. Please feel free to cite your source for the definition.

I usually refrain from speaking with those who make false claims

If you believe that I have made a false claim, honestly - I would like you to call me out on it and let me know what I claimed that is false. It's certainly not my intent to do so. I suspect in reality you just mean that I claimed something you disagree with.

 

[SkyWriting]

I am a Christian and I can only speak for myself.
I believe women have several choices regarding their sexuality (1.) abstinence (2.) birth control (3.) adoption (4.) motherhood.

I don't want women killing their babies.

So do you think women always have control over sexual circumstances?
Because you also know that's not the actual case.

Even married women do not have full control over their husbands on when they have sex and how.
Plus there are factors that socially, they lose control over events.

Nobody wants women killing their babies. But also, nobody steps in to take over the raising of such unwanted children either. And emotionally and even physically, women don't want to give up their children to others. Very unlike a cake pan.

 

[SkyWriting]

I usually refrain from speaking with those who make false claims and who bring themselves higher by pushing those around them down.....But I'll make an exception in this case.... For I am advocating for the unseen, and not my own beliefs..... are you able to fight for the unborn and refrain from fighting and protecting your beliefs?

Few offer to adopt unwanted babies unless they are fit, healthy, and the same color. And the mother has done all the work of bringing them to term.

 

[RaymondG]

Few offer to adopt unwanted babies unless they are fit, healthy, and the same color. And the mother has done all the work of bringing them to term.

I totally agree that fighting for the safety and wellbeing of children brought into this world, should have equal, or more importance that fighting for those that never had a chance to breathe.

I also do not mind focusing on any one topic, at any time, for the duration of the topic.

 

[SPF]

I totally agree that fighting for the safety and wellbeing of children brought into this world, should have equal, or more importance that fighting for those that never had a chance to breathe.

I also do not mind focusing on any one topic, at any time, for the duration of the topic.

You also don’t mind pretending people don’t respond to you. See #445

 

[ChristServant]

Over and over again so-called "pro-lifers" say two things that butt against each other:

1. Contraception is a form of abortion, especially the morning after pills (Plan B).
   
2. There is no reason to have an abortion because women can use contraception.

Uh, what? People want women to prevent unwanted pregnancies but not use the devices which were invented solely for that purpose. You can't have it both ways. If you do not want anybody to use contraception, you must love abortions of unwanted embryos and fetuses because using contraceptive pills and devices prevents them.

I also have seen "pro-lifers" speak out against mandatory sex education, which is the only way to make sure all girls and boys learn about contraception and abstinence. Again, if you want all girls and women to avoid having unwanted pregnancies, you must support this requirement for health teachers in every public and private school.

Reducing abortions will not happen by making them illegal. All that would do is make most abortions very dangerous, even life-threatening. It will not reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. If you want the number of abortions to be nearly zero you must support everything that would effectively reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies because desperate women will seek untrained people to remove fetuses out of their bodies.

So what do you want, fewer unwanted pregnancies or a lot of sick women occupying jail cells?

Just had a quick look at this thread the simple answer is Christians need to stop trying to mix GOD's words and commandments with the things of the world for their own sinful benefit. Stop trying to have Christian life alongside a worldly life because it's like trying to mix pure water with oil.

 

[SPF]

Just had a quick look at this thread the simple answer is Christians need to stop trying to mix GOD's words and commandments with the things of the world for their own sinful benefit. Stop trying to have Christian life alongside a worldly life because it's like trying to mix pure water with oil.

Can you explain how you think what you said applies to the topic of abortion?

 

[ralfyman]

Abortion refers to what's done after sperm meets egg, not before.

 

[Pathfinder627]

Over and over again so-called "pro-lifers" say two things that butt against each other:

1. Contraception is a form of abortion, especially the morning after pills (Plan B).
   
2. There is no reason to have an abortion because women can use contraception.

Perhaps you didn't get the memo, but I'll be yet another to point out that many are against contraception too.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Perhaps you didn't get the memo, but I'll be yet another to point out that many are against contraception too.

Contraception prevents unwanted pregnancies that lead to abortions, so there is no reason to oppose both methods of preventing the existence of unwanted babies. In order to oppose early abortion, you must love contraception. I fully support contraception as a way to prevent women from needing abortions later.

 

[Junia]

Pro-choice are one of the biggest examples of why the modern day left are insane.

Most of these pro-choice also block people like me from buying frozen white castle burgers (yes, I love this stuff) at a grocery store. Because.. vegan! So let me get this straight, you leftists are all "wohoo no more babies!!" yet get all protective towards cows? What is that? I am a huge animal lover too BTW.


This reminds me of the Academy Awards where this Michelle Williams made a speech about abortion being in a women's best interest in 2020.. it's time for them to be empowered and achieved success.
How stupid is that? So abortion is needed for achieving success, seriously? No studying, hard work, just get knocked up and kill it?

I understand that not everyone believes in the same morals but can it not be reasoned with such absurdity?

Sorry: I meant pro-choice. not pro-life

If course you are a huge animal lover! you're a dog lol!

Just as I am a guinea pig

 

[SkyWriting]

I am a Christian and I can only speak for myself.
I believe women have several choices regarding their sexuality (1.) abstinence (2.) birth control (3.) adoption (4.) motherhood.

I don't want women killing their babies.

It's not up to you.

In late December 2011, Antônio Lisboa Filho, age 28, discovered that his ten-and-a-half-year-old daughter, whom he had been raping regularly since she was eight, was 4 months pregnant. He fled from Coroatá, Maranhão with his wife Maria Alves Conceição and their other children, abandoning the girl with her maternal grandmother. Francisca Maria Conceição, the grandmother, alerted authorities of the rape and the parents' subsequent escape. As the pregnancy had advanced past the legal cut-off date for abortions, the girl delivered the baby via cesarean section in early May 2012, a month before term.[178] According to police testimony, the man is also suspected of raping the girl's 8-year-old sister.[179]

 

[NerdGirl]

Over and over again so-called "pro-lifers" say two things that butt against each other:

1. Contraception is a form of abortion, especially the morning after pills (Plan B).
   
2. There is no reason to have an abortion because women can use contraception.

1. I don't believe that, and I'm pro-life.
2. There is no justifiable reason to have an abortion. Contraception availability and responsible use is just one of many reasons the abortion rate should be much, much lower than it is.

The Plan B "morning after" pill is not a true contraceptive, because it can and will destroy a fertilized egg. It therefore acts as an abortifacient as well.

I also have seen "pro-lifers" speak out against mandatory sex education, which is the only way to make sure all girls and boys learn about contraception and abstinence. Again, if you want all girls and women to avoid having unwanted pregnancies, you must support this requirement for health teachers in every public and private school.

What's with the quotes around "pro-lifers"?
I am in support of mandatory education that teaches basic biology and reproductive science. I am not in support of sex ed classes that teach children how to touch, have anal sex, or use strap-ons. I am not in support of classes that teach pre-pubescent children about transgenderism and "gender spectrums". And yes, that is what some of these classes include, and it is becoming more and more common. Such material has zero place in a classroom full of children.

Reducing abortions will not happen by making them illegal.

And you know this how?

Making something difficult to obtain or do typically means it happens less frequently. If women are aware that they can't walk into the local Planned Parenthood for an abortion every time they don't feel like using a condom or they forget to take their birth control, they will become more vigilant in doing so. Since the alternative - an illegal abortion - is an undesired route.

All that would do is make most abortions very dangerous, even life-threatening.

In some cases, perhaps.

It will not reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.

This is just plain false. If I knew that abortion were illegal, and I absolutely did not want to have a baby, I'd be far more vigilant to avoid getting pregnant. So would any other woman with a thinking brain.

If you want the number of abortions to be nearly zero you must support everything that would effectively reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies because desperate women will seek untrained people to remove fetuses out of their bodies.

Yeah, and how's that been going for you for the past 40 years? We have more widely available, low-cost or free birth control than ever before. We have more widely spread sex ed programs in schools than ever before. Yet, somehow, we're still murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent babies every year.

So what's the problem? With all this free education and free birth control, and all the tools out there for women (and men, I might add) to avoid unwanted pregnancies, why are they still happening in such massive numbers?

Obviously, the solution is not "more birth control and education" because that's been tested on the population for decades without the desired result. We murdered over 800,000 babies in America in 2017.

The problem is that we have removed all of the consequences for peoples' actions. We have removed the need to have any self control. We have cushioned and coddled irresponsible behavior and said, "Oh, it's okay, just get an abortion, it's no big deal, it's a clump of cells!" These women are not given information on the risks, they aren't shown ultrasounds so they can be aware of the reality of what's happening within their own bodies, the fathers are completely cut out of the decision-making process (as well as the parents if the girl is underage). Knowing that an abortion is just a phone call away, means that exhibiting responsible, healthy self control in the form of abstaining from sex, or using birth control consistently, loses its importance. You've removed the consequences; therefore the proactivity to avoid them no longer exists.

So what do you want, fewer unwanted pregnancies or a lot of sick women occupying jail cells?

I'd like to see us stop murdering our own children. I'd like to see men and women held up to a standard of behavior that is remotely human, and not expect them to behave like animals in heat who can't control their urges. I'd like to see marriage, family, and children, cherished again, like they once were, and still should be.

Nowhere, in any of this, is "keep murdering the babies" a good answer.

 

[Online.Gamer.79]

If pro-lifers support mandatory sex education, they would in turn support any effort to prevent unwanted pregnanciest that lead to women having abortions. An unwanted pregnancy is a pregnancy the woman or girl did not want, of course. Whether she does not want a kid "right now" or can't take care of one at that time, it is an unwanted pregnancy. Do you support preventing unwanted pregnancies however possible or just calling women who have abortions murderers?

Give it up you can never argue with the pro lifers...we all know what would cause less abortions...and its not making it illegal.

 

[Job 33:6]

1. I don't believe that, and I'm pro-life.
2. There is no justifiable reason to have an abortion. Contraception availability and responsible use is just one of many reasons the abortion rate should be much, much lower than it is.

The Plan B "morning after" pill is not a true contraceptive, because it can and will destroy a fertilized egg. It therefore acts as an abortifacient as well.



What's with the quotes around "pro-lifers"?
I am in support of mandatory education that teaches basic biology and reproductive science. I am not in support of sex ed classes that teach children how to touch, have anal sex, or use strap-ons. I am not in support of classes that teach pre-pubescent children about transgenderism and "gender spectrums". And yes, that is what some of these classes include, and it is becoming more and more common. Such material has zero place in a classroom full of children.



And you know this how?

Making something difficult to obtain or do typically means it happens less frequently. If women are aware that they can't walk into the local Planned Parenthood for an abortion every time they don't feel like using a condom or they forget to take their birth control, they will become more vigilant in doing so. Since the alternative - an illegal abortion - is an undesired route.



In some cases, perhaps.



This is just plain false. If I knew that abortion were illegal, and I absolutely did not want to have a baby, I'd be far more vigilant to avoid getting pregnant. So would any other woman with a thinking brain.



Yeah, and how's that been going for you for the past 40 years? We have more widely available, low-cost or free birth control than ever before. We have more widely spread sex ed programs in schools than ever before. Yet, somehow, we're still murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent babies every year.

So what's the problem? With all this free education and free birth control, and all the tools out there for women (and men, I might add) to avoid unwanted pregnancies, why are they still happening in such massive numbers?

Obviously, the solution is not "more birth control and education" because that's been tested on the population for decades without the desired result. We murdered over 800,000 babies in America in 2017.

The problem is that we have removed all of the consequences for peoples' actions. We have removed the need to have any self control. We have cushioned and coddled irresponsible behavior and said, "Oh, it's okay, just get an abortion, it's no big deal, it's a clump of cells!" These women are not given information on the risks, they aren't shown ultrasounds so they can be aware of the reality of what's happening within their own bodies, the fathers are completely cut out of the decision-making process (as well as the parents if the girl is underage). Knowing that an abortion is just a phone call away, means that exhibiting responsible, healthy self control in the form of abstaining from sex, or using birth control consistently, loses its importance. You've removed the consequences; therefore the proactivity to avoid them no longer exists.



I'd like to see us stop murdering our own children. I'd like to see men and women held up to a standard of behavior that is remotely human, and not expect them to behave like animals in heat who can't control their urges. I'd like to see marriage, family, and children, cherished again, like they once were, and still should be.

Nowhere, in any of this, is "keep murdering the babies" a good answer.

I think that part of the problem is that, while banning abortions might make it harder for people to get abortions, it doesn't do anything for people that naturally have underaged sex, where children end up having more children.

And, realistically, a lot of these issues stem from ghetto urban environments where sex ed and school at large isn't well funded to begin with and it's not really something that can be resolved simply by giving money to schools.


"So what's the problem? With all this free education and free birth control, and all the tools out there for women (and men, I might add) to avoid unwanted pregnancies, why are they still happening in such massive numbers?"

They've actually been decreasing. They dropped something like 20% under the Obama administration

 

[SPF]

They've actually been decreasing. They dropped something like 20% under the Obama administration

They say 65% of statistics are made up on the spot.