The hypocrisy of being "pro-life"

[JSRG]

You lost me. Does anyone else here get her point?

The argument appears to be that since in Roe v. Wade the Supreme Court based its decision on the Fourteenth Amendment, it would require a repeal of the Fourteenth Amendment to undo Roe v. Wade. The obvious problem with that argument is the fact that the Supreme Court has the power to overturn previous decisions, so the Supreme Court overturning that decision would thereby nullify it with no need to repeal the Fourteenth Amendment.

Indeed, that's what happened with the Lochner era (named after the case Lochner v. New York). The Supreme Court for several decades held the conviction that the Fourteenth Amendment granted a liberty to contract that prevented the government from enacting a lot of various labor laws, including maximum work hour or minimum wage laws. Then they later reversed course on that, overturning the previous decisions.

Actually, Lochner v. New York is probably a better comparison point with Roe v. Wade than Dred Scott v. Sandford. That's the case that John Hart Ely compared it to in "The Wages of Crying Wolf", his famous critique of Roe v. Wade that was published soon after Roe v. Wade was handed down. (note: John Hart Ely was pro-choice!) While it is out of date in some respects, it mostly still holds up today:
https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5116&context=fss_papers

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Over and over again so-called "pro-lifers" say two things that butt against each other:

1. Contraception is a form of abortion, especially the morning after pills (Plan B).
   
2. There is no reason to have an abortion because women can use contraception.

Uh, what? People want women to prevent unwanted pregnancies but not use the devices which were invented solely for that purpose. You can't have it both ways. If you do not want anybody to use contraception, you must love abortions of unwanted embryos and fetuses because using contraceptive pills and devices prevents them.

I also have seen "pro-lifers" speak out against mandatory sex education, which is the only way to make sure all girls and boys learn about contraception and abstinence. Again, if you want all girls and women to avoid having unwanted pregnancies, you must support this requirement for health teachers in every public and private school.

Reducing abortions will not happen by making them illegal. All that would do is make most abortions very dangerous, even life-threatening. It will not reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. If you want the number of abortions to be nearly zero you must support everything that would effectively reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies because desperate women will seek untrained people to remove fetuses out of their bodies.

So what do you want, fewer unwanted pregnancies or a lot of sick women occupying jail cells?

There is a lot about the anti-abortion movement which is rather contradictory, which is why I’m pro-choice... Let people make their own choices consistent with their values and needs.

 

[RaymondG]

I don't hate you, not have I ever lifted a hand against you.

That's a wild accusation if I've ever seen one.

My daughter was raped, and she chose life for her child. When she decided she couldn't do it, she gave my granddaughter to me to raise, and raise and love her I did.

Then my daughter one day changed her mind, and chose to raise her child - and I turned over this child I loved as much as life itself for her mother to raise. And I supported my daughter in every way I could possibly support her through it all..

So where is this hate? If citing God's law and God's Word is hate (on a Christian forum no less while speaking to professing Christians), I find that a sad thing, for someone to see what God speaks as hate.

I use hate because this is how it is stated in the bible.....I wasnt saying that anyone hated anyone in the way we might use it.....Nor would I allow myself to feel anything because of the words I see and read. I put myself in my wording to avoid putting others in it...for many have, not, their hearts and minds guarded and are prone to finding offense when none is intended.

The love of God does not condemn others because they have not received the grace that was given to themselves.

I've never stolen a thing....yet i do not look at the thief as though I am above them, or more deserving of praise or the grace of God. I am the same as him.....I was only blessed to not do what he does, because of no good work of my own.....but only by the grace of God.

One touched with this grace does not say...."Look at me, I did this, so you should be able to do it also.....and I will condemn you if you dont."

This is the sentiments of one who, by their own works, became a good and righteous person.

I cannot boost of anything I've done.....Nor can I condemn anyone else for what they do. For all I have and any good I am said to have done was all because of and by the grace of God...... And not because I, myself am good and righteous.

Maybe one day I will become righteous and good enough to boost and condemn...... But I remain content not doing so......Even if this mean others say that I support evil because of it.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I use hate because this is how it is stated in the bible.....I wasnt saying that anyone hated anyone in the way we might use it.....Nor would I allow myself to feel anything because of the words I see and read. I put myself in my wording to avoid putting others in it...for many have, not, their hearts and minds guarded and are prone to finding offense when none is intended.

The love of God does not condemn others because they have not received the grace that was given to themselves.

I've never stolen a thing....yet i do not look at the thief as though I am above them, or more deserving of praise or the grace of God. I am the same as him.....I was only blessed to not do what he does, because of no good work of my own.....but only by the grace of God.

One touched with this grace does not say...."Look at me, I did this, so you should be able to do it also.....and I will condemn you if you dont."

This is the sentiments of one who, by their own works, became a good and righteous person.

I cannot boost of anything I've done.....Nor can I condemn anyone else for what they do. For all I have and any good I am said to have done was all because of and by the grace of God...... And not because I, myself am good and righteous.

Maybe one day I will become righteous and good enough to boost and condemn...... But I remain content not doing so......Even if this mean others say that I support evil because of it.

There is a woman in this thread who said she had an abortion - did I condemn her? No, absolutely not.

We all know we are sinners undeserving of God's Grace, however, we are also called, once within the sphere of Grace, to exhort others to the faith...

Paul didn't say that killing Christians was right, nor did he excuse the behavior just because he once participated in the persecution of those in Christ...

He never once ran around saying it was okay for the unsaved to sin, no, he preached repentance and God's Word with everything that was in him for the rest of his life, giving all he was to God...

There are people in our day who are running around saying it's okay for the unsaved to kill their unborn children for any reason they may deem appropriate, supporting the actions and defending the actions with everything they have and are, voting in such a manner to make murder easy.

I must ask, in such a conversation, just whose work are you doing then? God's? Or Satan's?

Satan thinks killing the unborn is great. Hitler would be proud... *we abort 1 child every 93 seconds... this level of killing is unprecedented in human history by even the most depraved dictators..

Yet, we seem to be acting like hey! It's okay! Let's make it easy! We can't remind ANYONE this is human life we are talking about!

What is this mindset that so approves it will encourage and support? It sickens me!


* Congressional Record, Volume 161 Issue 141 (Tuesday, September 29, 2015)
Planned Parenthood is the Nation's largest abortion chain, doing over 327,653 abortions in the last reported year. That comes out to an average of 898 abortions per day every day, 37 abortions every hour, 3 abortions every 5 minutes, more than 1 abortion every 2 minutes.

 

[GodLovesCats]

*** graphic description warning***
Actually that is not accurate. They put a stint in you the day before that grows inside of you while you sleep to open up the cervix. The next day they take it out, replace it with a tube and suck the baby out of the body in bits and pieces. This is what happened to me when I was 18 and very naive on the matter. I am now 60 and regret my decision every time this topic comes up. I know I am forgiven however He will not let me forget.

You are talking about ONE method of abortion. Not all abortions require cutting the fetus apart.

 

[Jamdoc]

Pregnancy isn't a punishment - it's the woman's flesh and blood as much as it's the man's - it is her child she is murdering.

If she doesn't want the child adoption is a viable option.

It is if she said no. It's a lot of changes to her body and responsibility that she said no to.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Abortion doesn't put a rape victim in a better place than they would be if they hadn't gotten pregnant. It does mean not feeling like they are still being violated for up to nine months after the fact, though.

More like the rest of her life. A rapist can be locked up for 50 years, but that does not change the fact she is or almost was a mom.

I find these abortion debates very frustrating, since pro-choicers don't seem to understand that their opponents actually think that this is a case of unjust killing, whereas pro-lifers don't seem to realize that feeling that one's bodily autonomy is being violated an issue at all. Neither of these two points is complicated, and I don't see how conversation is possible without acknowledging both of them.

Two things pro-lifers do not understand are:

1. If all zygotes were made in the image of God, none of them would die naturally.
2. Because the placenta has the mom's DNA, she owns complete bodily autonomy.

 

[Jamdoc]

It’s definitely a terrible situation. But fortunately in our society We don’t kill children because of the actions of their parents, or because their life is inconvenient for the parents. That’s why the pro life/choice discussion should always focus on whether or not the unborn are children. There is room for disagreement there, but anyone who acknowledges they are children and says the parent can still kill them is a monster

That is again, why I'm torn over it.
I don't want the child to die
I don't want the woman to go through an unwanted pregnancy because of rape
Neither is right.

 

[Hazelelponi]

If all zygotes were made in the image of God, none of them would die naturally.

Why not? Where is this in the Bible?

It's certainly possible for God to use a miscarriage as a wake up call in a Christian's life. Indeed, all trials that we face are used by His Hand to refine us and draw us into greater godliness. This is exactly how the author of Hebrews explains the discipline of the Lord: as a sign of his love and attentiveness to us!

 

[Hazelelponi]

That is again, why I'm torn over it.
I don't want the child to die
I don't want the woman to go through an unwanted pregnancy because of rape
Neither is right.

Why not allow God to decide? This is a Christian forum after all...

Do you know the chances of getting pregnant on a one off incident? 5% according to one study - that's pretty slim.

And even when you discuss this in abortion statistics, rape victims, victims of incest, and life of the mother incidents account for less than 2% of all abortions in this country.

So what of the 98%, are we going to use 2% (a decided minority) to give excuse for 98% of all abortions in this country?

Why use the minority at all? It's disingenuous at best.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Why not? Where is this in the Bible?

It's certainly possible for God to use a miscarriage as a wake up call in a Christian's life. Indeed, all trials that we face are used by his hand to refine us and draw us into greater godliness. This is exactly how the author of Hebrews explains the discipline of the Lord: as a sign of his love and attentiveness to us!

I am referring to the zygote from conception to implantation, when it fails to implant. Also, women do not always know they are pregnant when they miscarry because it usually happens early.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I am referring to the zygote from conception to implantation, when it fails to implant. Also, women do not always know they are pregnant when they miscarry because it usually happens early.

What are you even talking about. We are talking about the unborn being aborted willfully after the woman knows she is pregnant.

Now your talking about what then? All over the board?

 

[GodLovesCats]

What are you even talking about. We are talking about the unborn being aborted willfully after the woman knows she is pregnant.

Now your talking about what then? All over the board?

I mentioned this earlier. Scroll up or go back a page.

 

[Jamdoc]

Why not allow God to decide? This is a Christian forum after all...

Do you know the chances of getting pregnant on a one off incident? 5% according to one study - that's pretty slim.

And even when you discuss this in abortion statistics, rape victims, victims of incest, and life of the mother incidents account for less than 2% of all abortions in this country.

So what of the 98%, are we going to use 2% (a decided minority) to give excuse for 98% of all abortions in this country?

Why use the minority at all? It's disingenuous at best.

Never said I want abortion for reasons outside of medical causes (risk of serious harm or death to the mother like preeclampsia or ectopic pregnancy, or fatal anomaly of the child), or for rape to have morning after pills/plan B be standard in rape examinations.
Outside of that, no you should be responsible for your own choices.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I mentioned this earlier. Scroll up or go back a page.

It seems to me like your jumping around in order to take the focus off the issue at hand.

If God Himself doesn't allow a pregnancy to take place then its for His plan and His purpose.

It's not an excuse to murder a viable life.

 

[GodLovesCats]

The conception vs. implantation argument is a red herring, since no pro-choicer would draw the line at implantation and allow the morning after pill but not early abortion.

But yes, I would consider a zygote not implanting to be a form of early miscarriage. Defining pregnancy as beginning at implantation strikes me as a bit arbitrary--when pregnancy begins according to the definitions of medical authorities and when human life begins are really two different questions.

A red herring is a fish. Nothing else. Always has been and always will be.

Medically, implantation tis when the woman gets pregnant. She is not pregnant at conception. That is the official, scientific definition - not something pro-choicers made upl.

 

[Silmarien]

More like the rest of her life. A rapist can be locked up for 50 years, but that does not change the fact she is or almost was a mom.

I suppose you could consider the physical changes that come with pregnancy an additional violation, but that's putting a pretty strange twist on the idea of autonomy, since even physical aging would suddenly be a violation.

If all zygotes were made in the image of God, none of them would die naturally.

Everyone dies naturally, so this argument makes little sense to me.

Because the placenta has the mom's DNA, she owns complete bodily autonomy.

Of the placenta, perhaps, but not of the developing baby. I think you can only use the "bodily autonomy" argument to defend forms of abortion that do not cause direct harm, where death is the aftermath of thinning the lining of the uterus and expelling the embryo rather than being directly caused by the procedure. Otherwise the bodily autonomy of the baby is being violated.

That said, I'm close to being a fullblown socialist, so I'm somewhat jaded on the "complete bodily autonomy" argument in general. It reminds me too much of the "complete economic liberty" rhetoric popular in right-wing circles, with similarly screwed up consequences for how we view those who are dependent.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Never said I want abortion for reasons outside of medical causes (risk of serious harm or death to the mother like preeclampsia or ectopic pregnancy, or fatal anomaly of the child), or for rape to have morning after pills/plan B be standard in rape examinations.
Outside of that, no you should be responsible for your own choices.

I think abortion in life of the mother incidents has long been legal and up to the parents. That was simply considered medical necessity prior to Roe v. Wade..

In '65, Colorado was the first state that allowed abortion in cases of rape and incest, and many states followed that, all prior to Roe v. Wade.

The ruling in Roe v. Wade is what paved the way for abortion on demand - no reason needed.

Before that we were having discussion and agreement that in some incidences the woman might need or want a choice in the matter.

But as a nation? We are well beyond that now, as most abortions are economic in nature, and have nothing to do with necessity...

 

[Jamdoc]

I think abortion in life of the mother incidents has long been legal and up to the parents. That was simply considered medical necessity prior to Roe v. Wade..

In '65, Colorado was the first state that allowed abortion in cases of rape and incest, and many states followed that, all prior to Roe v. Wade.

The ruling in Roe v. Wade is what paved the way for abortion on demand - no reason needed.

Before that we were having discussion and agreement that in some incidences the woman might need or want a choice in the matter.

But as a nation? We are well beyond that now, as most abortions are economic in nature, and have nothing to do with necessity...

I think it comes down to whether Plan B/Morning After Pill are considered abortion or not and that is divisive between people's opinions. Some people take fertilization as when a child is conceived but I think without implantation no child is going to result, I see Plan B as a contraceptive rather than an abortion, but people will disagree with me and God's word doesn't specify the biology of conception.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I think it comes down to whether Plan B/Morning After Pill are considered abortion or not and that is divisive between people's opinions. Some people take fertilization as when a child is conceived but I think without implantation no child is going to result, I see Plan B as a contraceptive rather than an abortion, but people will disagree with me and God's word doesn't specify the biology of conception.

I agree it's an unknown religiously.

Biologically according to scientists and doctors pregnancy begins at implantation..

I guess I have no information to reject that belief, but it is controversial. All I can say on that is "I don't know"..