The Holocaust: Was it the wrath and judgment of God?

Winken said:

It was the maniacal behavior of Adolf Hitler who saught to erase Jews altogether and to enslave the rest of us.

It is the result of humankind making up its own strategies for "success," as we continue to do today around the world.

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That's obvious, though the OP was proposing the idea that God caused the Holocaust to happen as judgement on the Jews, and I was saying that if that really was the case, we can in no way call God loving. In fact if that was the case God could be considered evil.

CrystalDragon said:

That's obvious, though the OP was proposing the idea that God caused the Holocaust to happen as judgement on the Jews, and I was saying that if that really was the case, we can in no way call God loving.
In fact if that was the case God could be considered evil.

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Is it any different than the holocaust that befell the Jews in 70 ad?

Mat 24:19
But woe to those that are with child, and those that give suck in those days.
Mar 13:17
But woe to those that are with child and to those that give suck in those days!
Luke 21:23
But woe to them that are with child and to them who give suck in those days, for there shall be great distress upon the land and wrath upon this people.

Anyone read Josephus' acct of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad?

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.

In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it. 'Intimidated by this menace, she immediately produced the remains of her son, which petrified them with horror.
At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes..................

Revelation 9:6
In those days men will seek the death and will not find it;
they will desire to die, and the death will flee from them.

Achilles6129 said:

"“‘And I will heap disasters upon them; I will spend my arrows on them; 24 they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust. 25 Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs." Deut. 32:23-25 (ESV)

We clearly see in Scripture that God is not a God who is incompatible with a Holocaust. The main argument is actually not a Biblical one but rather a moral one: any God who would punish someone with something like the Holocaust is unjust and cruel. This is particularly true when considering the fact that many children died in the Holocaust and they could not have been in conscious rebellion against God.

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I really don't see an argument nor a problem with God ordering (if he did such a thing, or just allowed it.) Why? perspective. What if we lived in a world where the worst thing you could do was tell a white lie.. would that be a great world to live in? No. it would be just like this one. Meaning
our sliding scales of justice would elevated white lies to the rank of rape and murder because to us these are the worst things that can be done. In a sense we would over react because we do not know how much worse things could get. (Fear not the one who can destroy the body but destroy the body and soul in Hell.)

In truth dying? we all do it... big deal if you die early unless you feel entitled to 100 years and a planned death in bed. well too bad for you that is not the way it will happen to any of you I promise! (Rather Jesus promises and also says you can add to nor take from what time God has alotted you)

So then after we die? Heaven Hell? I know most of us like to play the role of Christ and put ourselves in a position to judge man's souls, but I promise there as well you are not Christ. You do not get to decide which man which individual goes to the Father through Christ despite what a man self identifies with.

So in truth to objectively look at the holocaust from a eternal perspective the Jews in 70AD lost thier holy land/their God given rights/home. Now from that time till 1945 where it was returned EVERY JEW, EVERY SINGLE ONE prayer for the eventual return of the holy land to them.
How many billions or 100s of million jews were there between 70 and 1945? how many do you think would gladly give their lives so their families could return home back under the protection of God?
How many did it take? 10? 12 million?? people to satisfy the world's blood lust so that the world felt bad enough to allow the jewish people to return home after almost 2000 years. what is that like 1% of the total people who would have prayed and died to have their land returned?

Remember this is not the first holocaust or time in history that the jews were targeted. (the bible and history accounts many many times) This is simply what it took for the people in power to say hey those people suffered enough, they will not assimilate into other cultures give them their home back

I see the holocaust as an answer to a very long prayed prayer with a relative cheap price tag. (compare what other nations endured during the same conflict to hang on to what they have or were defeated and basically lost a generation of men.) over 60 million people died of war related incidents, 80 million all together if you count the things war brought on like plague, starvation death from exposure ect.. 20 million russians died in defense of their country... Again a high price was paid for a 2000 year old prayer to be answered, but it wasn't even the highest price in that theater of war to be paid... the germans almost killed twice as many russians as they did jews.

Was this God punishing the jews? IDK. but I do know it was what the jews had to do to buy their land back. 'we' would not have given it to them any other way (see WWI)
God I think put them there because they were ready to pay in blood what was needed to be spilt on this world's alter.

I guess I could simplify this thread into three questions:

1) Do you believe that the Holocaust is incompatible with the revealed Scripture of the Judaeo-Christian God?

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Again when you take entitlement away from people, meaning you take away the idea we are all to live comfortable lives to 100 years old.. and then realize that each jew will stand before a loving God and be judged not by what the church deems is Christianity but by what God seeing the heart of his people and judging them as individuals rather than what we do by identifying ideologies.. I think if God gave up on the jews they would have died under hitler's boot. Taking all of that into consideration I say absolutely not. I think considering the grand scope of the war the jews made out like bandits and while they pay a lot it was fair market value considering what other in the neighborhood has to pay just to remain where they were at from the beginning.

2) Do you believe that any God who would use the Holocaust as punishment is cruel?

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nuupe.
The holocaust was implemented by evil men who wanted God people out of their land. The holocaust was the net result of the jews punishment which was exile in 70ad. Meaning the punishment was in 70 AD not what happened in 1940 nazi germany. That was a simple consequence of God's people living too close to people who did not know god.

3) Is it possible that the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God?

I'll leave the rest open. Thoughts?

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It's possible, but not likely as all other 'punishments' had a herold or prophet to tell of the upcoming calamity if they did not repent. The last time this happened was 70ad when rome sacked jerusalem and burned down the temple and killed off all the sadducees and crucified anyone else they could find. 70AD was a proper punishment. Again what happened in germany was what happens when you pray to God the same prayer for 2000 years without considering the cost.

Meaning if they knew the cost of this prayer answered they would have rallied an army as they did in WWI when the fought with or alongside the kysar. But this time with the allies and fought hitler.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

LittleLambofJesus said:

Is it any different than the holocaust that befell the Jews in 70 ad?

Mat 24:19
But woe to those that are with child, and those that give suck in those days.
Mar 13:17
But woe to those that are with child and to those that give suck in those days!
Luke 21:23
But woe to them that are with child and to them who give suck in those days, for there shall be great distress upon the land and wrath upon this people.

Anyone read Josephus' acct of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad?

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.

In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it. 'Intimidated by this menace, she immediately produced the remains of her son, which petrified them with horror.
At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes..................

Revelation 9:6
In those days men will seek the death and will not find it;
they will desire to die, and the death will flee from them.

Click to expand...

The difference between 70 AD and the Holocaust is that the destruction of the Temple was the fulfilment of Christ's prophesy and judgement; the 2ww is also the fulfilment of prophesy but not as specific; the world wars set up the beast for the end of time; had the League of Nations not failed world war two may not have been required; but the Holocaust was a small part of the 60 million that died; people get confused about the nature of God's love, which is defined but not exclusively by Revelation.

Achilles6129 said:

This thread is to discuss a relatively controversial subject: whether or not the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God upon the Jews. The question is a controversial one. Going into Scripture, we find examples of what God will do to the Jews if they disobey his commands:

"“‘And I will heap disasters upon them; I will spend my arrows on them; 24 they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust. 25 Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs." Deut. 32:23-25 (ESV)

We clearly see in Scripture that God is not a God who is incompatible with a Holocaust. The main argument is actually not a Biblical one but rather a moral one: any God who would punish someone with something like the Holocaust is unjust and cruel. This is particularly true when considering the fact that many children died in the Holocaust and they could not have been in conscious rebellion against God.

I guess I could simplify this thread into three questions:

1) Do you believe that the Holocaust is incompatible with the revealed Scripture of the Judaeo-Christian God?

2) Do you believe that any God who would use the Holocaust as punishment is cruel?

3) Is it possible that the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God?

I'll leave the rest open. Thoughts?

Click to expand...

No. It wasn't. God has appointed a Day of Judgment and that hasn't arrived yet.

The Holocaust was caused by criminal leaders motivated by demons. We must remember that Satan is the god of this world, so every negative thing that happens in the world comes either directly from him and his demons, or through demonic influence of some kind.

God does not force and prevent anyone from doing anything. He did not create a race of programmable robots, He gave man free choice to do what they believe is in their own best interests. Germany was steeped in liberal philosophy and theology which degraded man to be a nothing, and so it was easy for the Nazis to exterminate all those who did not fit their racial profile. God allowed them to do that, because He respected their free choice, although there were many miracles that saved Christians (in many cases) from the same fate.

Also, there is a good book that shows all the miracles that happened that caused the Nazis to make goofy decisions and cost them the war and led to their defeat. Although Hitler was motivated by demons, God manipulated him to take total control of the army, navy and the war in general and to make goofy decisions against the advice of his best generals. It was not accident that Rommel was on leave at the time of the Allied breakout at El Alamein, and that Hitler was asleep and folks were afraid to wake him up the morning that D Day happened. It was God's influence that caused Goering to switch his bombers away from British airfields to English cities, thereby allowing Britain's air force to recover. It was also God's influence that Hitler decided to invade Russia, because God knew that Hitler would overreach himself. It was no accident that when the Russian winter set in, it was the worst and coldest winter on record.

When we look at Midway in the Pacific, it was by chance that the squadron aircraft looking for the Japanese fleet happened to see a Japanese destroyer steaming full bore in a straight line to catch up with the main fleet. Or was it by chance, or did God set that one up? There was set of circumstances that caused that particular destroyer to stay behind and then have to race to catch up with the fleet.

No one forced anyone to make all these choices, and so we can see the influence of demons to try and destroy a whole race of people, and the influence of the Holy Spirit to ensure that the Nazis were not able to dominate the free world. It is the same as a Christian person sensing an impulse not to take a certain flight, obeying it, taking a subsequent flight, and then finding out that the flight he was going to be on, crashed with no survivors. The impulse came from the Holy Spirit but the Christian had the choice of obeying it or not.

But the bottom line is that all men are appointed once to die and after that comes the judgment where they have to give account to God concerning the choices they made in life. That will be when Christians will be rewarded and unbelievers will experience the wrath and judgment of God.

Oscarr said:

It is the same as a Christian person sensing an impulse not to take a certain flight, obeying it, taking a subsequent flight, and then finding out that the flight he was going to be on, crashed with no survivors. The impulse came from the Holy Spirit but the Christian had the choice of obeying it or not.

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What of the Christians on the Flight who didn't get an impulse from the Holy Spirit?

Oscarr said:

The Holocaust was caused by criminal leaders motivated by demons.

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Who says Demons are involved at all?

Scripture teaches The Human heart is deceitful above all things, no satanic influence necessary.

Human beings are capable of the gravest of evil all on our own.

We must remember that Satan is the god of this world, so every negative thing that happens in the world comes either directly from him and his demons, or through demonic influence of some kind.

Click to expand...

Again, Human beings are Capable of the gravest of sins all by ourselves. We Don't require Satan to be behind or influencing anything we do.

You have a misunderstanding of "the world" and who rules it.
Jesus is the God of this world, not Satan.

Here is the teaching of the Holy Bible Re: who is presently ruling the world:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Revelation 1:5
Jesus Christ...the ruler of the kings of the earth

1 Peter 3:22
[Jesus] is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Ephesians 1:20-21
he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come

Romans 14:9
For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living

1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.

You also seem to miss that "the world," being reconciled to God in Christ, belongs to God's people:

2 Corinthians 5:19
God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world...God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

1 Corinthians 3:22
whether... the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come. All are yours

Romans 4:13-18
For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of no effect. For the law works wrath, for where there is no law, neither is there disobedience. For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. As it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations." This is before him whom he believed, God, who gives life to the dead, and calls the things that are not, as though they were. Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, "So will your seed be."

Colossians 1:16-18,20
For in him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and to him. He is before all things, and in him all things are held together. He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence...and through him to reconcile all things to himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross. Through him, I say, whether things on the earth, or things in the heavens.

So, it is clear that the world is the Church's rightful dominion.

Friend, Know this one simple fact:
Christianity is the supreme power and religion on the planet.
Christ is its head. It cannot fail (Matt 16:18-19).

parousia70 said:

What of the Christians on the Flight who didn't get an impulse from the Holy Spirit?

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It was time for them to go home.

for those who got off their jobs in this world are not yet complete.

I know I am bullet proof till it is time for me to go home.

drich0150 said:

It was time for them to go home.

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Time for their Kids to be Orphans huh? Time for their families to grieve, time for their families lives to be turned upside down, for their finances to be upended...time for them to wonder how they are going to make ends meet now that Mom or Dad who used to be the breadwinner is now gone...

Ok Cool.

Achilles6129 said:

This thread is to discuss a relatively controversial subject: whether or not the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God upon the Jews. The question is a controversial one. Going into Scripture, we find examples of what God will do to the Jews if they disobey his commands:

"“‘And I will heap disasters upon them; I will spend my arrows on them; 24 they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust. 25 Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs." Deut. 32:23-25 (ESV)

We clearly see in Scripture that God is not a God who is incompatible with a Holocaust. The main argument is actually not a Biblical one but rather a moral one: any God who would punish someone with something like the Holocaust is unjust and cruel. This is particularly true when considering the fact that many children died in the Holocaust and they could not have been in conscious rebellion against God.

I guess I could simplify this thread into three questions:

1) Do you believe that the Holocaust is incompatible with the revealed Scripture of the Judaeo-Christian God?

2) Do you believe that any God who would use the Holocaust as punishment is cruel?

3) Is it possible that the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God?

I'll leave the rest open. Thoughts?

Click to expand...

The holocaust was without a doubt related to the curse against the Jews from God, because the Jews throughout history have rejected the prophets he sent to them, putting them to death, even rejecting and putting to death the son of God, and because of this God turned against them, and not only destroyed the temple and the set-apart city, but drove them into the nations, to be massacred and tortured, exactly as Israel was warned if they abandoned God in this entire passage that pronounces the curses against the Jews,

However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you: 16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country. 17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed. 18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks. 19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out. 20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a] 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed. 25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you. 30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head. 36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you. 38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land. 43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail. 45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you. 49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you. 53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities. 58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess. 64 Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the Lord will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, “If only it were evening!” and in the evening, “If only it were morning!”—because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. 68 The Lord will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you. (Deuteronomy 28:15-68 [NIV])

parousia70 said:

Time for their Kids to be Orphans huh? Time for their families to grieve, time for their families lives to be turned upside down, for their finances to be upended...time for them to wonder how they are going to make ends meet now that Mom or Dad who used to be the breadwinner is now gone...

Ok Cool.

Click to expand...

Indeed.

Just like it has always been. God sends the wind and rain to test the house (faith/belief you built) and if it has a good foundation The truth of God the house will stand. If however you build foolishly and do not build on who/what the God of the bible is, then your house will fall in the ist of all of the wind and rain. Meaning while you world is falling down around you, if you built your house on the sand, you call out to God with all that you have left, and you hear silence... that is because your house was not built on the truth of God. Now you have an opportunity to build on the God of the bible.

What is better living in comfort with no obstacles, no wind, no rain all the while you proudly think you got this god thing figured out, and when you get there you find out via Jesus Himself He never knew you and he say away from me evil doer.. Where is God's mercy being demonstrated? hardship in the 'matrix' world we now live in? or condemnation to Hell in the real world?

Here's the thing.. God is NOT doing anything new here. all of these things Jesus told us about. but our understand of God is a genie wishmaker trading good deeds for wishes, and we can't fathom things going wrong. Again not who the bible records God to be. "Have you considered my servant Job?" Has God offered Satan you yet? why not? do you already belong to Him? or does he know you will fail?

If you want to be used greatly by God then pray for the wind and rain to take away what does not need to be there in your faith. Now understand this wind and rain is meant to over turn homes/faith not built on the real God of the bible. If however you really want to know/be stood before him then seek out the wind and rain.

parousia70 said:

What of the Christians on the Flight who didn't get an impulse from the Holy Spirit?

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That is just an academic question which would be impossible to answer. Anyway, this is not my main point is it?

parousia70 said:

Who says Demons are involved at all?

Scripture teaches The Human heart is deceitful above all things, no satanic influence necessary.

Human beings are capable of the gravest of evil all on our own.



Again, Human beings are Capable of the gravest of sins all by ourselves. We Don't require Satan to be behind or influencing anything we do.

You have a misunderstanding of "the world" and who rules it.
Jesus is the God of this world, not Satan.

Here is the teaching of the Holy Bible Re: who is presently ruling the world:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Revelation 1:5
Jesus Christ...the ruler of the kings of the earth

1 Peter 3:22
[Jesus] is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Ephesians 1:20-21
he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come

Romans 14:9
For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living

1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.

You also seem to miss that "the world," being reconciled to God in Christ, belongs to God's people:

2 Corinthians 5:19
God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world...God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

1 Corinthians 3:22
whether... the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come. All are yours

Romans 4:13-18
For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of no effect. For the law works wrath, for where there is no law, neither is there disobedience. For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. As it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations." This is before him whom he believed, God, who gives life to the dead, and calls the things that are not, as though they were. Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, "So will your seed be."

Colossians 1:16-18,20
For in him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and to him. He is before all things, and in him all things are held together. He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence...and through him to reconcile all things to himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross. Through him, I say, whether things on the earth, or things in the heavens.

So, it is clear that the world is the Church's rightful dominion.

Friend, Know this one simple fact:
Christianity is the supreme power and religion on the planet.
Christ is its head. It cannot fail (Matt 16:18-19).

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Who is the god of this world, directing world events if not Satan and his demons. Who is leading, influencing, and motivating non believers if not demons? Why were the ministries of Jesus and Paul mainly occupied in casting out demons? And why one of the principal signs that will follow true believers is the casting out of demons?

This may explain why most of our evangelism is failing, because we are using religious words without any power, and we don't really know how to cast out demons any more in order to get people saved. Perhaps the church has gone so PC we are afraid to offend the poor unbelievers with challenging the demons that are controlling so the unbelievers can be saved.

Oscarr said:

Who is the god of this world, directing world events if not Satan and his demons.

Click to expand...

I cited Myriad of Scripture in my previous post testifying that Jesus Christ, NOT Satan, is the present, ruling God of this world.
If you believe the scriptures I cited are incorrect in their claims, then, by all means, show us from scripture why.

For example, I cited when Jesus said: Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Now, you say "NO, that is wrong...Jesus does not have All authority on earth today, Satan Does"

Did Matthew Misquote Jesus here? Perhaps you believe Jesus was Mistaken to claim ALL Authority on earth was His and no one elses?

Please exegete Matthew 28:18 for us, since you don't seem to believe it means what it says, and tell us what it really means instead?

Who is leading, influencing, and motivating non believers if not demons?

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Themselves, of course. Human beings are FULLY capable of committing the GRAVEST of sins all by themselves.
I thought I already made that point clearly. We DON'T NEED SATAN.

You seem to have a very odd notion that, without Satan running around behind the scenes, people would be perfectly good all by themselves...

Such a notion makes the Cross work of Christ null and void.

Human Beings as sinners need a savior.

Your notion says, no, Human beings are perfectly good, we just need to get rid of Satan.... Christ need not have died on the cross then, right? He could have just come 2000 years ago and killed Satan on the spot and then no one would need to believe in Jesus... right? We'd all be perfect?

Not sure how old you are, but we used to call that "Flip Wilson Theology" in my day... I don't buy it.

parousia70 said:

I cited Myriad of Scripture in my previous post testifying that Jesus Christ, NOT Satan, is the present, ruling God of this world.
If you believe the scriptures I cited are incorrect in their claims, then, by all means, show us from scripture why.

For example, I cited when Jesus said: Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Now, you say "NO, that is wrong...Jesus does not have All authority on earth today, Satan Does"

Did Matthew Misquote Jesus here? Perhaps you believe Jesus was Mistaken to claim ALL Authority on earth was His and no one elses?

Please exegete Matthew 28:18 for us, since you don't seem to believe it means what it says, and tell us what it really means instead?



Themselves, of course. Human beings are FULLY capable of committing the GRAVEST of sins all by themselves.
I thought I already made that point clearly. We DON'T NEED SATAN.

You seem to have a very odd notion that, without Satan running around behind the scenes, people would be perfectly good all by themselves...

Such a notion makes the Cross work of Christ null and void.

Human Beings as sinners need a savior.

Your notion says, no, Human beings are perfectly good, we just need to get rid of Satan.... Christ need not have died on the cross then, right? He could have just come 2000 years ago and killed Satan on the spot and then no one would need to believe in Jesus... right? We'd all be perfect?

Not sure how old you are, but we used to call that "Flip Wilson Theology" in my day... I don't buy it.

Click to expand...

I'm sure Oscarr can answer better than me but I would say I believe your disagreement is to do with theological semantics. Few people follow Christ even though many claim to; many people follow the rule of Satan most by default in that they do not follow Christ. Christ has authority to remove Satan and his followers at the appointed time; there is a time for everything under heaven.

parousia70 said:

I cited Myriad of Scripture in my previous post testifying that Jesus Christ, NOT Satan, is the present, ruling God of this world.
If you believe the scriptures I cited are incorrect in their claims, then, by all means, show us from scripture why.

For example, I cited when Jesus said: Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Now, you say "NO, that is wrong...Jesus does not have All authority on earth today, Satan Does"

Did Matthew Misquote Jesus here? Perhaps you believe Jesus was Mistaken to claim ALL Authority on earth was His and no one elses?

Please exegete Matthew 28:18 for us, since you don't seem to believe it means what it says, and tell us what it really means instead?



Themselves, of course. Human beings are FULLY capable of committing the GRAVEST of sins all by themselves.
I thought I already made that point clearly. We DON'T NEED SATAN.

You seem to have a very odd notion that, without Satan running around behind the scenes, people would be perfectly good all by themselves...

Such a notion makes the Cross work of Christ null and void.

Human Beings as sinners need a savior.

Your notion says, no, Human beings are perfectly good, we just need to get rid of Satan.... Christ need not have died on the cross then, right? He could have just come 2000 years ago and killed Satan on the spot and then no one would need to believe in Jesus... right? We'd all be perfect?

Not sure how old you are, but we used to call that "Flip Wilson Theology" in my day... I don't buy it.

Click to expand...

So how do you explain the Scripture: "For the god of this world has blinded the eyes of unbelievers so that they do not see the glory of the gospel in Jesus Christ"?

Oscarr said:

So how do you explain the Scripture: "For the god of this world has blinded the eyes of unbelievers so that they do not see the glory of the gospel in Jesus Christ"?

Click to expand...

Is this your response to my post?
Really?

First of all, the proper translation is "the god of this age"... not "of this world"... big difference, wouldn't you agree?

So, which age then? It can't be the Church age can it?
Satan is the god of The Age of the Everlasting Gospel?
You don't really believe that do you?

The pagans called many things gods, and this superstition blinded them to the true God. Paul says elsewhere that "their bellies are their god." (Phil 3:19). Do you really believe that bellies are actual gods of this world? What Paul is saying is that the pagans are serving their own appetites in slavish devotion to material things instead of devoting themselves to the only real God -- Jesus.

Christ is "above all rule and authority and power and dominion" (Eph 1:19-20); all authorities and powers are subjected to Him (1 Pet 3:22); through His death he destroyed the devil who had the power of death (Heb 2:14); and He is "the ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev 1:5-6). The very purpose that Christ was manifested in the flesh was to destroy the works of the devil (1 Jn 3:8).

Christ the King of the world is by his own sovereign plan permitting men some freedom to refuse the gospel and face their damnation. This decree of Christ is *not* to be understood as a lack of his rulership over the world, but rather the sovereign choice of His Majesty.

Please answer this, was Jesus WRONG or RIGHT to claim ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH WAS HIS?

I say He was right... you seem to believe He was wrong.

Care to Clarify?

You appear to be interpreting God's decision to permit his creatures to choose the gospel or face hell with the notion that Jesus is not God. That's wrong. Go read all the verses I listed again:

Jesus Christ, not satan, is God and King over this world (over all of heaven and earth):

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Ephesians 1:19-23
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Peter 3:22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

And note that even in the book of Job, satan is an agent of God, not a god himself. (Read Job ch 1-2).

If you read Job 1&2, satan is not god but only an angel that carried out a specific role for God in the Old Covenant age: accusing the Hebrews of their uncovered sins, that they might be judged and receive the curses of the Law. But the New Covenant removed the curse of the Law from God's people (Gal 3:10-13), and thus St. Paul says of the Christian:
"Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Rom 8:32-34)

And John says "he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not" (1 Jn 5:18)

And Paul says that Jesus, having spoiled principalities and powers, made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" (Col 2:15). For, Jesus is "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come." (Eph 1:20-21)

So, you are confusing the idea of God with the idea that people have made for themselves substitute things for God that are not gods at all but mere superstitions. There is only ONE God with actual authority and power over the whole world, and it's JESUS:

"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth'" (Matthew 28:18)

parousia70 said:

Is this your response to my post?
Really?

First of all, the proper translation is "the god of this age"... not "of this world"... big difference, wouldn't you agree?

So, which age then? It can't be the Church age can it?
Satan is the god of The Age of the Everlasting Gospel?
You don't really believe that do you?

The pagans called many things gods, and this superstition blinded them to the true God. Paul says elsewhere that "their bellies are their god." (Phil 3:19). Do you really believe that bellies are actual gods of this world? What Paul is saying is that the pagans are serving their own appetites in slavish devotion to material things instead of devoting themselves to the only real God -- Jesus.

Christ is "above all rule and authority and power and dominion" (Eph 1:19-20); all authorities and powers are subjected to Him (1 Pet 3:22); through His death he destroyed the devil who had the power of death (Heb 2:14); and He is "the ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev 1:5-6). The very purpose that Christ was manifested in the flesh was to destroy the works of the devil (1 Jn 3:8).

Christ the King of the world is by his own sovereign plan permitting men some freedom to refuse the gospel and face their damnation. This decree of Christ is *not* to be understood as a lack of his rulership over the world, but rather the sovereign choice of His Majesty.

Please answer this, was Jesus WRONG or RIGHT to claim ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH WAS HIS?

I say He was right... you seem to believe He was wrong.

Care to Clarify?

You appear to be interpreting God's decision to permit his creatures to choose the gospel or face hell with the notion that Jesus is not God. That's wrong. Go read all the verses I listed again:

Jesus Christ, not satan, is God and King over this world (over all of heaven and earth):

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Ephesians 1:19-23
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Peter 3:22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

And note that even in the book of Job, satan is an agent of God, not a god himself. (Read Job ch 1-2).

If you read Job 1&2, satan is not god but only an angel that carried out a specific role for God in the Old Covenant age: accusing the Hebrews of their uncovered sins, that they might be judged and receive the curses of the Law. But the New Covenant removed the curse of the Law from God's people (Gal 3:10-13), and thus St. Paul says of the Christian:
"Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Rom 8:32-34)

And John says "he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not" (1 Jn 5:18)

And Paul says that Jesus, having spoiled principalities and powers, made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" (Col 2:15). For, Jesus is "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come." (Eph 1:20-21)

So, you are confusing the idea of God with the idea that people have made for themselves substitute things for God that are not gods at all but mere superstitions. There is only ONE God with actual authority and power over the whole world, and it's JESUS:

"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth'" (Matthew 28:18)

Click to expand...

Quick question... Just because All authority has been given to Jesus, what makes you think he is inclined to make this world in the image of heaven? or even the best it can be. Clearly God uses Satan as a servant to test and proof his servants, per Job. per peter, per the religious leadership of his day.. Satan has been clearly allowed to infiltrate almost everything man has his hands into.

So either Jesus' authority is not what you understand it to mean or Christ uses satan to rain down hardship and test the hearts of the people here. or is there something I am missing... because if Jesus has all authority then why isn't earth more like heaven unless satan has a hand in things?

parousia70 said:

Is this your response to my post?
Really?

First of all, the proper translation is "the god of this age"... not "of this world"... big difference, wouldn't you agree?

So, which age then? It can't be the Church age can it?
Satan is the god of The Age of the Everlasting Gospel?
You don't really believe that do you?

The pagans called many things gods, and this superstition blinded them to the true God. Paul says elsewhere that "their bellies are their god." (Phil 3:19). Do you really believe that bellies are actual gods of this world? What Paul is saying is that the pagans are serving their own appetites in slavish devotion to material things instead of devoting themselves to the only real God -- Jesus.

Christ is "above all rule and authority and power and dominion" (Eph 1:19-20); all authorities and powers are subjected to Him (1 Pet 3:22); through His death he destroyed the devil who had the power of death (Heb 2:14); and He is "the ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev 1:5-6). The very purpose that Christ was manifested in the flesh was to destroy the works of the devil (1 Jn 3:8).

Christ the King of the world is by his own sovereign plan permitting men some freedom to refuse the gospel and face their damnation. This decree of Christ is *not* to be understood as a lack of his rulership over the world, but rather the sovereign choice of His Majesty.

Please answer this, was Jesus WRONG or RIGHT to claim ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH WAS HIS?

I say He was right... you seem to believe He was wrong.

Care to Clarify?

You appear to be interpreting God's decision to permit his creatures to choose the gospel or face hell with the notion that Jesus is not God. That's wrong. Go read all the verses I listed again:

Jesus Christ, not satan, is God and King over this world (over all of heaven and earth):

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Ephesians 1:19-23
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Peter 3:22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

And note that even in the book of Job, satan is an agent of God, not a god himself. (Read Job ch 1-2).

If you read Job 1&2, satan is not god but only an angel that carried out a specific role for God in the Old Covenant age: accusing the Hebrews of their uncovered sins, that they might be judged and receive the curses of the Law. But the New Covenant removed the curse of the Law from God's people (Gal 3:10-13), and thus St. Paul says of the Christian:
"Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Rom 8:32-34)

And John says "he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not" (1 Jn 5:18)

And Paul says that Jesus, having spoiled principalities and powers, made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" (Col 2:15). For, Jesus is "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come." (Eph 1:20-21)

So, you are confusing the idea of God with the idea that people have made for themselves substitute things for God that are not gods at all but mere superstitions. There is only ONE God with actual authority and power over the whole world, and it's JESUS:

"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth'" (Matthew 28:18)

Click to expand...

If Jesus really does have absolute dominion over the world, why is there little evidence of it? Has Jesus returned already, as some of the Thessalonians believed and taught? Why does it say that Jesus will come again and reign over the earth for 1000 years if He is already reigning?

The kingdom of God consists of those who have received Christ as Saviour. We Spirit-filled ones have authority and dominion over the powers of darkness that control the unbelieving world. Jesus is Lord of the Christian Church.

If Jesus is the Lord of the world, then why does the Scripture say that we must come out of the world and receive Jesus as our Lord and not be conformed to the things of the world?

If you want to know the truth, read your Bible. It's all there.