The Holiness Movement - sound doctrine?

[~RENEE~]

Before froggy shows up and this turns into a he said/she said Law thread ...

No orthodox Christian would ever say that we can just do whatever we like. The difference between Perfectionism and orthodox Christianity is the proper distinction between Law and Gospel.

The law says to be holy, to be perfect, to be like God. The law shows us that not only are we incapable of being perfect, when it comes right down to it, we don't really even want to. Not really.

I can't think of a more prideful thing than to claim that one has stopped sinning. It is not only impossible this side of the resurrection, it is very dangerous to think so.

It also pegs out the irony gauge. Claiming not to sin is obviously and inherently sinful.

Here is the Gospel: Christ is our righteousness.

Only in him are we made perfect. Only in him can we be made holy. God himself does this, not we ourselves; not because of any effort on our part, not because of any decision we make or work we might do, but simply for the sake of Jesus Christ and the Father's love for him.

Does that mean that we can just keep on sinning willy-nilly? Obviously not. That would be unbelief and a blasphemy of God's holy name. Yet we have two wills battling it out inside us. The will of our flesh can do nothing but sin. The will of our spirit is holy and righteous before God.

We must live in constant repentance not just for our sins but for our utter sinfulness. We must cling to the cross and hold God to his promises.

The battle continues.


.

 

[~RENEE~]

Arn't they sprouted directly from the movement. Don't they hold to very similar (controvertial) beliefs?

All I care about is, what do they practice...is it biblical. Is it sound doctrine.

sprouted directly from? NO. but the holiness movement at some point crept in. in fact some still hold to the holiness aspect

 

[Mr Dave]

The main departure from orthodox Christianity for the Holiness movement is the false doctrine of Perfectionism.

Why did you call it Perfectionism instead of Christian Perfection or Entire Sanctification?

The Methodist Catechism says;

"35. What is Christian Perfection?
Through the Holy Spirit God has given us his love so that we may love him in return with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and our neighbour as ourselves. The gift is offered to all Christians, and by responding we affirm that there is no limit to what the grace of God is able to do in a human life. By giving us the Holy Spirit, God assures us of his love for us and enables us to love as he, in Christ, loves us. When God's love is perfected in us, we so represent Christ to our neighbours that they see him in us without hindrance from us.

Perfect love, as Christian perfection is also called, is the result of, and can only be maintained by, complete dependence on Jesus Christ. It is given either gradually or at one moment, but does not mean that spiritual growth has ended, for Christian perfection is perfection in love only: it is not freedom from making mistakes, or from ignorance. Only God is absolutely perfect.

35. Romans 8:12-17 1 John 4:7-21 Romans 5:5

Note: Christian perfection or perfect love was a particular emphasis in John Wesley's preaching and writing: see 'A Plain Account of Christian Perfection' and the sermons on the subject based on Philippians 3:12 and Hebrews 6:1 "

and Wesley himself said,

Q. 1. What is Christian Perfection?
A. The Loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, strength. This implies that no wrong temper, none contrary to love, remains in the soul and that all the thoughts, words and actions are governed by pure love.

Q. 2. But do you affirm that this perfection excludes all infirmities, ignorance and mistake?
A. I continually affirm quite the contrary, and always have done so. The sermon on "Christian Perfection" was published above eighteen years ago. And therein I expressly declare "Christians are not so perfect in this life as to be free from ignorance...

(Amazon.com: John Wesley (Library of Protestant Thought)…) (pp.283-298)

What actually is false about saying that by depending on Jesus we can love as God has commanded? The doctrine never says that Christians can be perfect, only God is perfect.

 

[Big Drew]

why not bring them up?

the point was AoF + PAST SINS = man deceived, fell away under Law.

anyways: this whole "oh, that's not MY sister, but she looks like her" is tiresome. IS IT ERROR OR IS IT NOT?

here's one reason ppl might just get a tad confuzzled - please correct any errors, Drew:

Classical Pentecostalism

Classical Pentecostalism is the earliest form of Pentecostalism and is divided into three major orientations/origins: Wesleyan-holiness, Reformed-Higher Life, and Oneness denominations.[37] Examples of Wesleyan holiness denominations include the Church of God in Christ and the International Pentecostal Holiness Church (IPHC). The International Church of the Foursquare Gospel and the Assemblies of God are examples of the Reformed branch.[37][38] The major Oneness churches include the United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) and the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World (PAW). With the exception of Oneness Pentecostals, classical Pentecostal churches share basic beliefs with the rest of evangelical Christianity.

The difference between Wesleyan and non-Wesleyan Pentecostals is largely over understanding of sanctification. Wesleyan Pentecostals believe that sanctification is an experience or crisis event that occurs after salvation and before Spirit baptism. This experience cleanses the believer, rooting out the sinful, fallen nature.

Non-Wesleyan Pentecostals believe that sanctification is a life-long process. In addition to the Reformed and Higher Life labels, many non-Wesleyan Pentecostal groups are also classified as Finished Work or Baptistic Pentecostals.[37]


i care because i talk to others all the time about their beliefs....i want to understand where these ideas are coming from.

~ c.

Not confusing to me...if you read the wiki article you linked to it says that AoG falls under the Reformed or Higher Life grouping.

I was under the impression that this was a thread about the Holiness Movement...not the Pentecostal Movement...so, are you, as the OP, wanting to take the thread off topic?

 

[child of Jesus]

sprouted directly from? NO. but the holiness movement at some point crept in. in fact some still hold to the holiness aspect

thank you Renee!

ok.

so, though from what i can see by reading, the order of existence was:

1 -Holiness
2 -Pentecostal
3 - AoG
4 - others

you've said the Holiness doctrine has crept in (back in?) to AoG?

renee, in your assessment, is there unsound doctrine that may be inherent to all that comes from the same doctrine (relating to the idea of perfection?)

i can't seem to get a handle on how the various organizations see perfection as happening - seems to range from a purging or burning out of the sin nature; to a divinely enabled power to cease sinning; to a righteousness now possible under an ability to fulfill the requirements of Mosaic Law....??

can you simplify for me?

 

[Big Drew]

I don't see how you've gotten any of that from what has been posted in this thread...but, continue believing your misconceptions....

 

[GailS2406]

...and human ego raises its ugly head.

My concern with a 'holiness' movement is the work of the flesh. ALL glory goes to God - when we start to 'work' on our righteousness, no matter how noble the reason, human failings seem to rise to the surface.

Of course, it's not to say that the work of Christ within us as believers, and our submission, humility, and obedience to His work is not necessary. But I firmly believe that anyone, and I mean anyone, that says they have reached Holiness by their works that they do or don't do...is deluded.

That's why we needed to work of our Savior in the first place...because even the saints of old and the fathers of faith...COULDN'T DO IT.

Romans Chapter 3

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Christ and Him crucified, my hope of Glory!

 

[child of Jesus]

Why did you call it Perfectionism instead of Christian Perfection or Entire Sanctification?

The Methodist Catechism says;


and Wesley himself said,


(Amazon.com: John Wesley (Library of Protestant Thought)…) (pp.283-298)

What actually is false about saying that by depending on Jesus we can love as God has commanded? The doctrine never says that Christians can be perfect, only God is perfect.

hi mr. dave:
thank you

i see the writings at the end here seem to be saying (just differently) that we are become in actuality perfect (called in love, here)...and that we only make mistakes, or are ignorant after salvation.

if that's true, i'm in big trouble

 

[child of Jesus]

Not confusing to me...if you read the wiki article you linked to it says that AoG falls under the Reformed or Higher Life grouping.

I was under the impression that this was a thread about the Holiness Movement...not the Pentecostal Movement...so, are you, as the OP, wanting to take the thread off topic?

hi Big!

things are going along fine, i thought.

just trying to understand roots, Drewster

Q: are the doctrinal foundations of The Holiness Movement sound?

Q: subsequently, do the movements which found their origins in it have sound doctrinal foundations?

Q: specifically which doctrines may be unsound? please elaborate, documenting in Scripture if possible.

[this is open to all: supportive and critical. please link to sources you are familiar with - for assisting others in their own assessments]


.......................

The Holiness movement
is an American off-shoot of Methodism which generally follows the Arminian doctrinal teachings of John Wesley. Holiness Christians left Methodism in the 19th and early 20th centuries because they felt that mainstream Methodism was failing to emphasize Wesleyan teachings on sanctification, particularly the experience of Christian Perfection, which Holiness theologians usually refer to as entire sanctification, following Wesley's colleague John Fletcher. Among the more notable Holiness bodies are the Church of the Nazarene and the Salvation Army.

theopedia


The Holiness movement
The traditional holiness movement is distinct from the Pentecostal movement, which believes that receiving the Holy Spirit involves speaking in tongues. Indeed, many of the early Pentecostals were from holiness movement, and to this day many "classical Pentecostals" maintain much of holiness doctrine and many of its devotional practices. (Oneness Pentecostals, such as the United Pentecostal Church, still largely adhere to these "standards.") Additionally, the terms Pentecostal and apostolic, now used by adherents to Pentecostal and charismatic doctrine, were once widely used by Holiness churches in connection with the consecrated lifestyle described in the New Testament.

However, Pentecostals add and emphasize that the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit is evidenced specifically by speaking in tongues, a position which churches in the traditional holiness movement do not accept. During the advent of Pentecostalism at Azusa Street, the practice of speaking in tongues was strongly rejected by leaders of the traditional holiness movement. Alma White, the leader of the Pillar of Fire Church, a holiness denomination, wrote a book against the Pentecostal movement that was published in 1936. The work entitled Demons and Tongues, represented early rejection of the new Pentecostal movement. White called speaking in tongues “satanic gibberish” and Pentecostal services “the climax of demon worship”.[2]

Nevertheless, many holiness churches and organizations joined the Pentecostal movement (e.g., the Church of God in Christ and the Pentecostal Holiness Church), accepting the Pentecostal teaching on speaking on tongues as a "third work" of grace, in addition to conversion and sanctification. As a result, Pentecostal churches in the Southeast and in the African-American community, are often called "holiness" and "sanctified" churches.

wikipedia

 

[child of Jesus]

I don't see how you've gotten any of that from what has been posted in this thread...but, continue believing your misconceptions....

??
hi Drew.

i mentioned earlier that much of what i have gathered (it's tough plowing to get the info) actually comes from one-on-one interaction along with personal research.

what misconceptions, Drew? i'm open: please tell me what i have wrong. be as precise as possible.

thank you!

 

[child of Jesus]

...and human ego raises its ugly head.

My concern with a 'holiness' movement is the work of the flesh. ALL glory goes to God - when we start to 'work' on our righteousness, no matter how noble the reason, human failings seem to rise to the surface.

Of course, it's not to say that the work of Christ within us as believers, and our submission, humility, and obedience to His work is not necessary. But I firmly believe that anyone, and I mean anyone, that says they have reached Holiness by their works that they do or don't do...is deluded.

That's why we needed to work of our Savior in the first place...because even the saints of old and the fathers of faith...COULDN'T DO IT.

Romans Chapter 3

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Christ and Him crucified, my hope of Glory!

indeed!

 

[Big Drew]

hi Big!

things are going along fine, i thought.

just trying to understand roots, Drewster

Note what your wiki article says..."many Pentecostals were from the Holiness movement"...but, many were not, and are not.

Two completely separate movements...they do intertwine in some areas...but not all mesh together...so no sense in trying to make it so.

There are many Holiness folks that reject the Pentecostal idea of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Big Drew]

??
hi Drew.

i mentioned earlier that much of what i have gathered (it's tough plowing to get the info) actually comes from one-on-one interaction along with personal research.

what misconceptions, Drew? i'm open: please tell me what i have wrong. be as precise as possible.

thank you!

The Mosaic Law stuff, for one...I don't know of any Holiness believer that's trying to follow the Law.

The other, something that has been stressed by myself and others, is that Christian Perfection is not sinless perfection, as you keep insisting that it is.

 

[hedrick]

Ah the old No True Scotsman fallacy. Gotta love it....

Huh? Scotsmen are defined by birth or residence. Anything else may or may not be present in one. Christians are defined by being followers of Christ. Part of that is a commitment to obedience. We don't do it perfectly, but I'd argue anyone who ignores Jesus' teachings isn't a follower of Christ (and in fact doesn't have faith). (John 15:14)

There are lots of difficult questions here. E.g. we don't earn salvation by anything we do. See Luke 17:7-10: we don't gain any credit by just doing what we're told. Maintaining both that Christians are by definition committed to following Jesus and that we are justified by faith is a balancing act. But failing to maintain either sides of the balance is just as harmful.

Also, Jesus mostly tries to remake people from the inside out. So while he talks in John 15:14 about doing what he commands, he also says that his command is to love one another (15:12). But you can't love someone and not want to help them. That's what love means.

I have two problems with holiness, but no problem at all with the idea that Christians are committed to obedience. My first problem is in fact Luke 17:7-10. Jesus wouldn't even allow himself to be called good. I don't see him as calling anyone but God holy.

The second is that holiness historically has been thought of a "purity", particularly sexual purity. But the whole cultic purity thing was the goal of the Pharisees, not Jesus. (In fact there's a lot of Christian practice that seems to be to be closer to Jesus' opponents than to Jesus.) Please note that I'm not saying we should go out and commit adultery, just that purity and shame, and particularly the isolation between the pure and the impure, doesn't seem to have been a focus for Jesus.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Not confusing to me...if you read the wiki article you linked to it says that AoG falls under the Reformed or Higher Life grouping.

I was under the impression that this was a thread about the Holiness Movement...not the Pentecostal Movement...so, are you, as the OP, wanting to take the thread off topic?

Honestly Drew, your desperate efforts to divert talk away from the topic of examining the holiness movement AND the organizations that are directly related to her are pretty transparent.

 

[child of Jesus]

The Mosaic Law stuff, for one...I don't know of any Holiness believer that's trying to follow the Law.

The other, something that has been stressed by myself and others, is that Christian Perfection is not sinless perfection, as you keep insisting that it is.

hi Drew...

how many Holiness believers do you know? how holy are they?

..............................

how do you know they aren't trying to please God by Law (no matter they call it Moses or not)?

..............................

if they don't believe we are somehow LITERALLY purged of the sin nature, they MUST then believe we can somehow become pleasing to God (we are now holy) by some other means while still having a sin nature, meaning we are still sinners.

the only POSSIBLE means to please God without being perfect and holy as He is, can be to perfectly fulfill the requirments of Mosaic Law (which would make us perfectly righteous)

so, we are:

1) completely purged of sin = pure and holy

and/or

2) completely righteous according to Mosaic Law

or

3) DECLARED RIGHTEOUS (though we are not)

hmmm.......

i wonder why Jesus lived a completely Righteous Life, and died a Substitutionary Death?

do we receive the benefits of BOTH by Grace, through faith?is God THAT GOOD? were such DRASTIC measures required for redemption of man?

GOSPEL BREAK:

By Faith, or by Works of the Law?

Galatians 3
1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected bya the flesh? 4Did you sufferb so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justifyc the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”d 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirite through faith.

The Law and the Promise

15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

love you Big D!have faith IN GOD.

 

[Mr Dave]

hi mr. dave:
thank you

i see the writings at the end here seem to be saying (just differently) that we are become in actuality perfect (called in love, here)...and that we only make mistakes, or are ignorant after salvation.

if that's true, i'm in big trouble

Not quite.
The Wesleyan-Holiness tradition (maybe more the Wesleyan?) wouldn't view salvation as an event that things happen after. Salvation is a process, of which this (entire sanctification) is a part.
What the writing's are saying is that we can come to exhibit perfect love, and are truly able to love God with all our heart strength and soul, and love our neighbour as ourselves. We do not actually become perfect people, and thus 'Christian Perfection' doesn't prevent us from failings (ignorance, mistakes, other errors...).
In Wesleyan derived theology there is no 'after salvation' as we are continually in a state of being saved, being saved from these mistakes (the ones that Christian Perfection does not stop as it does not deal with them) as we continually recognise our failings and pray to God for forgiveness from them.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

how many Holiness believers do you know? how holy are they?

Keith Drury is a professor at Indiana Wesleyan University who wrote the book Holiness for Ordinary People. In this article he provides insight into the present state of the Holiness Movement.


LDG

 

[child of Jesus]

Not quite.
The Wesleyan-Holiness tradition (maybe more the Wesleyan?) wouldn't view salvation as an event that things happen after. Salvation is a process, of which this (entire sanctification) is a part.
What the writing's are saying is that we can come to exhibit perfect love, and are truly able to love God with all our heart strength and soul, and love our neighbour as ourselves. We do not actually become perfect people, and thus 'Christian Perfection' doesn't prevent us from failings (ignorance, mistakes, other errors...).
In Wesleyan derived theology there is no 'after salvation' as we are continually in a state of being saved, being saved from these mistakes (the ones that Christian Perfection does not stop as it does not deal with them) as we continually recognise our failings and pray to God for forgiveness from them.

thanks Dave!

so, basically the Holiness folks say the process of salvation is initiated (by our belief in the Gospel?) and we are in the process of being saved: do we ever know for sure if we are?
(its just arminianism, right?)

and, at what point did we become without sin, but are now just in ignorance or error? like, sin is transgression of The Law. since the Law isn't "done away with", something had to happen to make our transgression of it no longer become offensive to God, deserving death.

so, the idea is, then, if i get this, that when the process of salvation was initiated God changed the definition of sin?

or is it that our new ability to fulfill the whole of the Law by fulfilling the Two (loving God & neighbour) is what covers our sin?...our mistakes?

here's where i'm having trouble....i really am not sure we ARE able to fulfill the Two great commandments to GOD'S SATISFACTION (at least according to Mosaic Law) - there's far more to the FIRST COMMANDMENTS which pertain to God than loving Him as best we can.

idolatry means we AREN'T loving Him the way He requires and desires. and, if we are honest, aren't we still guilty of idolatry at times? (not worshipping a statue) but the meaning and implications of it as laid out throughout THE TWO-EDGED SWORD?

i dunno....i'm pretty unworthy, but about as grateful as anybody can be (most of the time)

thanks for your reply, it's very helpful because i want to understand.

~ child.

 

[child of Jesus]

Keith Drury is a professor at Indiana Wesleyan University who wrote the book Holiness for Ordinary People. In this article he provides insight into the present state of the Holiness Movement.


LDG

hi LamorakDesGalis

THANK YOU!!
i'll admit i haven't read the entire site yet (just found it)...but i GET IT...what he's saying so far.

and i totally agree.....i know i'm giving the impression i don't think we have to stop sinning and get separate (but that's not true). i'm wary of the leaven of The Pharisees (the author at the site is talking about it).

if you knew what i have been delivered from, you'd know how much i HATE THAT STUFF - SIN!

i've actually been trying to see if there's a teaching in the Holiness doctrine that somehow makes us something more than people who now WANT and desire to live in the ways that are truly pleasing to God - STOP SINNING! practise righteousness!

i hope that's clear (though i may go overboard on satire to make my point)....one of the reasons i'm having hard time finding a church is BECAUSE i NEED the help and refuge from the world and the temptations. i want to get rid of those ways (and i can for the most part) by spending as little time as possible taking part in stuff of the world. so i LIKE the teachings of holiness and righteousness (because i know how far from it i am...and truthfully, even the holiest of holiness men are too, aren't they? righteousness and holiness are NOT just behaviour modifications, though they go a long way in the right direction. in fact, there's NO other direction).

i just worry that some line gets crossed and we think we now have a righteousness OF OUR OWN that (even subconsciously) supplants The Righteousness of GOD IN JESUS). God is pleased WITH HIS SON....

i'll tell you what i know: by The Power of The Spirit i only DESIRE IT, and am only able to even THINK ABOUT desiring it because its God's DOING (Agape, the indwelling Spirit), not my own...- i know what a dead rebellious sinner who is at war with God looks and feels like - i was one! and, i'm going further...i'm still a sinner, because i'm still in my flesh body. end of story.

i have a pretty good idea you know what i mean....i'm going to continue with this link because i LIKE IT ALOT and i appreciate it....if i find that skewed thing i THINK is unbiblical (that we are now bordering the divine because of something WE CAN DO), may i bring it out and ask about it?

couple of remarks i liked below (and i get it and agree):

While the abuses of the old holiness movement were glaring (and perhaps responsible in part for our own overreaction), the abuses of our own generation have been no better. We have led many holiness folk far from essential holiness doctrine and experience. We now have holiness theologians and speakers (like myself) who are better at articulating what holiness is not, than what it is. It’s hard to have a holiness movement when much of what we are is merely a reaction against who we were.

and here:

Many of our people do not need to be sanctified—they need to be saved! The doctrine at risk in many holiness churches is not entire sanctification but "transformational conversion." We may need to stand at Luther’s side awhile before we can rejoin Wesley.

again, thanks LDGlater...

~ c