The Holiness Movement - sound doctrine?

[LamorakDesGalis]

Q: are the doctrinal foundations of The Holiness Movement sound?

Q: subsequently, do the movements which found their origins in it have sound doctrinal foundations?

The Holiness Movement is within the bounds of evangelicalism and historic Christianity. The Holiness Movement places a greater emphasis on lifestyle. Sometimes legalism can be an issue, but there are also a lot of godly people in the Holiness Movement. James Dobson of Focus on the Family and Bill Gaither the Gospel singer are members of the Church of the Nazarene.


LDG

 

[plmarquette]

holiness movement ... Azuza Street...revival...

basically lets cut to the chase, get rid of what is man and go back to what is God
or revival or lent or metanoia what ever you call it...turn off the tv, get out of the bars and clubs, go to church and pray....start living like a christian and stop
behaving like an infidel...

 

[Big Drew]

mistakes?

mistakes aren't sin, Drew...unless we want to go into a discussion about sin being transgression of The Law. i'm fairly certain God will not charge you with trangression of The Law if your hand slipped and porn popped up - that was a mistake.

so....do you still sin, Drew? it should be either yes or no.

no sin = sinlessness = perfect holiness.

sin = transgression of The Law

for example: do you Love The Lord Thy God Fully? and every moment of the day seamlessly? or do you ever fall short?

what about with neighbour?

ever lie?

covet?

~ child

Nope, sorry...there is a difference between willfully sinning and making a mistake and being caught off guard...

You brought up porn, so that will make a good example.

If it was late at night and I was flipping channels, looking for something to watch, and there was porn on one of the channels...I lingered a little too long, then caught myself and changed the channel...repented...that's a mistake...

OTOH, if I went to the adult book store and picked up a porno brought it home and watched it...that's a willful sin...it was premeditated, and I had complete intention of sinning.

What Christian Perfection, or Entire Sanctification states is that when we are faced with the temptation, like the latter example, we don't have to entertain these thoughts, and we can resist willfully sinning...we're still going to sin in the general sense...no way around that...

 

[child of Jesus]

holiness movement ... Azuza Street...revival...

basically lets cut to the chase, get rid of what is man and go back to what is God

or revival or lent or metanoia what ever you call it...turn off the tv,

get out of the bars and clubs, go to church and pray....start living like a christian and stop behaving like an infidel...

???
i get the foresake our old ways and come out and be separate: but is that what The Holiness Movement/Azuza offers?


The Azusa Street Revival was a historic Pentecostal revival meeting that took place in Los Angeles, California, and was led by William J. Seymour, an African American preacher. It began with a meeting on April 14, 1906, and continued until roughly 1915. The revival was characterized by ecstatic spiritual experiences accompanied by speaking in tongues, dramatic worship services, and inter-racial mingling. The participants received criticism from secular media and Christian theologians for behaviors considered to be outrageous and unorthodox, especially at the time. Today, the revival is considered by historians to be the primary catalyst for the spread of Pentecostalism in the 20th century.

(i couldn't care less about the race thing...is this really a God thing?)
revival.


Seymour and the other revivalists at the Apostolic Faith Mission on Azusa Street held to five core beliefs:[16]

1. Salvation by Faith.
2. Sanctification (or Holiness) of the believer.
3. Tongues as evidence of Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
4. Faith healing as part of God's redemption.
5. The "very soon" return of Christ.

Birth of Pentecostal movement

By the end of 1906, most leaders from Azusa Street had spun off to form other congregations, such as the 51st Street Apostolic Faith Mission, the Spanish AFM, and the Italian Pentecostal Mission. These missions were largely composed of immigrant or ethnic groups. The Southeast United States was a particularly prolific area of growth for the movement, since Seymour's approach gave a useful explanation for a charismatic spiritual climate that had already been taking root in those areas. Other new missions were based on preachers who had charisma and energy. Nearly all of these new churches were founded among immigrants and the poor.[11]
Doctrinal differences abounded, and many separate organizations and denominations sprung from the initial revivals. The Church of God in Christ was formed in 1907, the Assemblies of God and United Pentecostal Church were formed in 1914, the Pentecostal Church of God was formed in 1919 at the Sharon Bible School.[15]

Today, there are more than 500 million Pentecostal and charismatic believers across the globe.[2][9][12] The Pentecostal denomination is currently second in size behind the Roman Catholic Church[17] and is the fastest-growing form of Christianity today.[7] The Azusa Street Revival is commonly regarded as the beginning of the modern-day Pentecostal Movement.[15][25][26]

.............................................


why get out of the bar when i can get drunk at church?

what does behaving like an infidel look like?



YouTube - Ohhh WHAT A WILD HOLY SPIRIT PARTY WE HAD!!

YouTube - Drunk in the Spirit

YouTube - Young People Filled with the Joy Of God By The Holy Spirit Drunk In the Spirit

YouTube - Suzanne Hinn - Holy Ghost Enema

..............


Azusa Street Mission

The Apostolic Faith newspaper contains many accounts of spiritual manifestations similar to other revivals. Reports of shaking, being drunk in the spirit, falling and holy laughter are reported at Azusa Street as well as other places that this revival fire had spread. God is about to pour out His Holy Spirit more abundantly than at any other time in history; the great and wonderful news is that the fires of Azusa Street are still burning.

Azusa Street Mission

signing off.
this stuff is so tiresome but i can hardly stay silent while people lead others to it: IS THIS HOLINESS? IS IT???

 

[child of Jesus]

Nope, sorry...there is a difference between willfully sinning and making a mistake and being caught off guard...

You brought up porn, so that will make a good example.

If it was late at night and I was flipping channels, looking for something to watch, and there was porn on one of the channels...I lingered a little too long, then caught myself and changed the channel...repented...that's a mistake...

OTOH, if I went to the adult book store and picked up a porno brought it home and watched it...that's a willful sin...it was premeditated, and I had complete intention of sinning.

What Christian Perfection, or Entire Sanctification states is that when we are faced with the temptation, like the latter example, we don't have to entertain these thoughts, and we can resist willfully sinning...we're still going to sin in the general sense...no way around that...

thanks drew.
i agree.
we fight against the sin nature because we hate it.
it is offensive to God, and not what He wants for us.

but you have been truthful....we still sin.

in fact, if we say we don't, we lie, and therefore, we sin..
later
~ child.

 

[Big Drew]

thanks drew.
i agree.
we fight against the sin nature because we hate it.
it is offensive to God, and not what He wants for us.

but you have been truthful....we still sin.

in fact, if we say we don't, we lie, and therefore, we sin..
later
~ child.

I think what has happened within some Holiness churches...or perhaps I should say with Holiness individuals, is that they don't understand what Wesley was saying with Christian Perfection...and they take it to the extreme...becoming legalistic, and thinking that it is possible to be completely sinless on this side of Glory...and that's simply not the case.

 

[Chesterton]

that's not the sort of right explanation i thought you were going to offer.

you have access to the same Scriptures, by the power of The Same Spirit.

it's either yes or no. what does the Bible say, and what do you say?

"just ask the novelist himself, and get the right explanation"

according to The Author of The Bible, is ANY man without sin?

(it seems like a pretty important doctrinal point, and is relevent to the OP)

thanks

Yes it's possible. Christ said "Be ye perfect". I don't think he was a dreamy idealist, so I think it may be possible for some. I haven't met anyone like that, but it's not my place to judge other people's status anyway.

 

[Tangible]

That's the thing...it's not sinless perfection, as others have already pointed out...it's that we can resist willful sinning, because of this act of the Holy Spirit. There's a difference between willful disobedience and mistakes.

My problem with it is that there is no difference between willful, conscious sin and sins of which we are not aware. It's all sin. This seems to discount our utter sinfulness. Which makes sense, I guess, coming from Arminians.

Also, 1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Big Drew]

My problem with it is that there is no difference between willful, conscious sin and sins of which we are not aware. It's all sin. This seems to discount our utter sinfulness. Which makes sense, I guess, coming from Arminians.

Also, 1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I have to disagree with you here, as there is most certainly a difference.


Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

As I pointed out in a previous post...there is a distinction between a deliberate, willful sin...and the common, daily mishaps that we all have.

Look at it like the court system...one will get a much stiffer sentence for premeditated murder than they will for manslaughter...both are the taking of another's life...but it comes down to the intent of the individual.

 

[~RENEE~]

I grew up Pentecostal Holiness. This stand was at one time held by the Assemblies of God which is where I was raised.

My experience with this movement was pretty much.

As a child I had to dress a certain way because it was believed that if we didn't we couldn't go to Heaven.

The dress for women consisted of dresses or skirts that was long enough to sweep the floor. No jewelry, women was not allowed to cut their hair, if a woman wore makeup she was a prostitute going to hell (this is the way we was taught so please don't go off on me), a woman's clothing could not at all show her knees, shoulders, belly button or elbows. It was a very legalistic and very much a movement of bondage. And yes as a child I would be tormented by other kids as a result.

Is it biblical? to an extent yes. It is taken from the laws given to the Isrealites in the Old Covenant.

But let me tell you I have since learned that Jesus is our Holiness and nothing we do can possibly make us holy.

 

[~RENEE~]

Yes it's possible. Christ said "Be ye perfect". I don't think he was a dreamy idealist, so I think it may be possible for some. I haven't met anyone like that, but it's not my place to judge other people's status anyway.

When Christ said be ye perfect He knew that in this life that was not completely possible what He was actually stating was Strive to be perfect. Real Godly perfection can and will only be reached when we reach Heaven.

 

[Big Drew]

But let me tell you I have since learned that Jesus is our Holiness and nothing we do can possibly make us holy.

So we can just DO whatever we like?


I'm not saying I agree with the old school Pentecostals and Holiness...a lot of the stuff they did, and some still do, is legalistic...but are we not told repeatedly in scripture to strive for holiness?

 

[~RENEE~]

in 1 Corinthians we read all things are lawful but not all things are beneficial.

I beleive what he was actually saying there is I can do whatever I want but many things are a hindarance to me and my relationship with Christ.

So then that begs the question if we desire a relationship can we do whatever we like? No by all means no.

Now I also believe that we can do nothing of our own to attain holiness. You see if we accept any holiness other than Jesus it is nothing but empty religion. Think about the Pharisees they was the holiest of all yet Jesus called them serpants and hypocrites.

Hmm they was soooo holy so righteous yet Jesus did not accept their holiness. Why? Because true holiness comes from Him.

 

[child of Jesus]

I think what has happened within some Holiness churches...or perhaps I should say with Holiness individuals, is that they don't understand what Wesley was saying with Christian Perfection...and they take it to the extreme...becoming legalistic, and thinking that it is possible to be completely sinless on this side of Glory...and that's simply not the case.

thanks Drew.
yes, that's clear.

the following is NOT spoken to Christians in the Holiness camp as a whole: but the very nature of the teaching itself can surely lead to a misunderstanding of one's true condition, whether saved or unsaved.

and when taken to the extreme (which may not always show on the outside, but what is inside one's own heart/mind) isn't that Legalism another form of the Pharisees' belief in their own godliness that Jesus so roundly condemned?

Matthew 23
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity

Luke 18
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

~

i dunno Drew...maybe i'm not a very good Christian, because even when i work hard at it, pray, and go to great lengths to avoid temptations, and even find success and victory: i never lose sight of my unworthiness and that i am a sinner.

(this isn't about lawlessness...its about pretty much always being aware [more and more so as i draw nearer to God] how far from His Holiness i really am.

 

[child of Jesus]

I grew up Pentecostal Holiness. This stand was at one time held by the Assemblies of God which is where I was raised.

My experience with this movement was pretty much.

As a child I had to dress a certain way because it was believed that if we didn't we couldn't go to Heaven.

The dress for women consisted of dresses or skirts that was long enough to sweep the floor. No jewelry, women was not allowed to cut their hair, if a woman wore makeup she was a prostitute going to hell (this is the way we was taught so please don't go off on me), a woman's clothing could not at all show her knees, shoulders, belly button or elbows. It was a very legalistic and very much a movement of bondage. And yes as a child I would be tormented by other kids as a result.

Is it biblical? to an extent yes. It is taken from the laws given to the Isrealites in the Old Covenant.

But let me tell you I have since learned that Jesus is our Holiness and nothing we do can possibly make us holy.

THANK YOU FOR THAT PERSONAL TESTIMONY!
i like the observation here:

Is it biblical? to an extent yes. It is taken from the laws given to the Isrealites in the Old Covenant.


may He continue to Bless and keep you.
love,
~ child

 

[Big Drew]

thanks Drew.
yes, that's clear.

the following is NOT spoken to Christians in the Holiness camp as a whole: but the very nature of the teaching itself can surely lead to a misunderstanding of one's true condition, whether saved or unsaved.

and when taken to the extreme (which may not always show on the outside, but what is inside one's own heart/mind) isn't that Legalism another form of the Pharisees' belief in their own godliness that Jesus so roundly condemned?

Matthew 23
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity

Luke 18
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

~

i dunno Drew...maybe i'm not a very good Christian, because even when i work hard at it, pray, and go to great lengths to avoid temptations, and even find success and victory: i never lose sight of my unworthiness and that i am a sinner.

(this isn't about lawlessness...its about pretty much always being aware [more and more so as i draw nearer to God] how far from His Holiness i really am.

But, you can find legalists pretty much anywhere. From Calvinism you get the Hyper-Calvinists that have this elitist attitude because they're part of the elect...Catholics that think they're holier than Protestants because they're part of the "One True Church"...etc...

Then, flip the coin...you've got folks who think they can live however they want, so long as they say a little prayer before they go to bed every night, and everything is peachy...

It's way too easy to become either too religious or too worldly...there has to be balance...and as long as we keep our focus on Christ, and not on ourselves, I believe we will find it.

 

[Tangible]

So we can just DO whatever we like?

Before froggy shows up and this turns into a he said/she said Law thread ...

No orthodox Christian would ever say that we can just do whatever we like. The difference between Perfectionism and orthodox Christianity is the proper distinction between Law and Gospel.

The law says to be holy, to be perfect, to be like God. The law shows us that not only are we incapable of being perfect, when it comes right down to it, we don't really even want to. Not really.

I can't think of a more prideful thing than to claim that one has stopped sinning. It is not only impossible this side of the resurrection, it is very dangerous to think so.

It also pegs out the irony gauge. Claiming not to sin is obviously and inherently sinful.

Here is the Gospel: Christ is our righteousness.

Only in him are we made perfect. Only in him can we be made holy. God himself does this, not we ourselves; not because of any effort on our part, not because of any decision we make or work we might do, but simply for the sake of Jesus Christ and the Father's love for him.

Does that mean that we can just keep on sinning willy-nilly? Obviously not. That would be unbelief and a blasphemy of God's holy name. Yet we have two wills battling it out inside us. The will of our flesh can do nothing but sin. The will of our spirit is holy and righteous before God.

We must live in constant repentance not just for our sins but for our utter sinfulness. We must cling to the cross and hold God to his promises.

The battle continues.


.

 

[Edial]

Before froggy shows up and this turns into a he said/she said Law thread ...

No orthodox Christian would ever say that we can just do whatever we like. The difference between Perfectionism and orthodox Christianity is the proper distinction between Law and Gospel.

The law says to be holy, to be perfect, to be like God. The law shows us that not only are we incapable of being perfect, when it comes right down to it, we don't really even want to. Not really.

I can't think of a more prideful thing than to claim that one has stopped sinning. It is not only impossible this side of the resurrection, it is very dangerous to think so.

It also pegs out the irony gauge. Claiming not to sin is obviously and inherently sinful.

Here is the Gospel: Christ is our righteousness.

Only in him are we made perfect. Only in him can we be made holy. God himself does this, not we ourselves; not because of any effort on our part, not because of any decision we make or work we might do, but simply for the sake of Jesus Christ and the Father's love for him.

Does that mean that we can just keep on sinning willy-nilly? Obviously not. That would be unbelief and a blasphemy of God's holy name. Yet we have two wills battling it out inside us. The will of our flesh can do nothing but sin. The will of our spirit is holy and righteous before God.

We must live in constant repentance not just for our sins but for our utter sinfulness. We must cling to the cross and hold God to his promises.

The battle continues.


.

I'm telling ya ... every Christian is Lutherans in heart ... they did not realize it yet ...

o ... ducking ... was that a shoe?)

 

[Big Drew]

Before froggy shows up and this turns into a he said/she said Law thread ...

No orthodox Christian would ever say that we can just do whatever we like. The difference between Perfectionism and orthodox Christianity is the proper distinction between Law and Gospel.

The law says to be holy, to be perfect, to be like God. The law shows us that not only are we incapable of being perfect, when it comes right down to it, we don't really even want to. Not really.

I can't think of a more prideful thing than to claim that one has stopped sinning. It is not only impossible this side of the resurrection, it is very dangerous to think so.

It also pegs out the irony gauge. Claiming not to sin is obviously and inherently sinful.

Here is the Gospel: Christ is our righteousness.

Only in him are we made perfect. Only in him can we be made holy. God himself does this, not we ourselves; not because of any effort on our part, not because of any decision we make or work we might do, but simply for the sake of Jesus Christ and the Father's love for him.

Does that mean that we can just keep on sinning willy-nilly? Obviously not. That would be unbelief and a blasphemy of God's holy name. Yet we have two wills battling it out inside us. The will of our flesh can do nothing but sin. The will of our spirit is holy and righteous before God.

We must live in constant repentance not just for our sins but for our utter sinfulness. We must cling to the cross and hold God to his promises.

The battle continues.


.

I've yet to meet a Christian of the Holiness persuasion that thinks they are sinless. I agree that anyone that would say something like that is sinning because they are lying...not only to us and themselves, but most of all, to God...

It seems that you're looking at this from the extreme angle...correct me if I'm wrong...but this is similar to the issue I used to have with Calvinists...but then when I did some research I saw that it wasn't Calvinists I had a problem with, but Hyper-Calvinists.

I totally agree that God is the one who makes us holy...and I don't believe you'll find a Holiness believer with any lick of sense that would say otherwise...and that's exactly what this is about...the belief that sanctification (Christian Perfection) is another work of the Holy Spirit, separate from regeneration, in the believer's life...

These two sections from the Articles of Faith for the IPHC do an excellent job of explaining this...much better than I could, anyway...

9. Cleansing
We believe Jesus Christ shed His blood, not alone for our justification and the forgiveness of actual transgressions, but also for the complete cleansing of the justified believer from all indwelling sin and from its pollution, and this transaction takes place subsequent to (or after) regeneration (the new birth) (Acts 26:18; Ephesians 5:25-27; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 9:13, 14; 10:10, 14-22; 13:11, 12; 1 John 1:7, 9). This is the negative side of sanctification – the cleansing or taking away of the sin principle – the circumcision of the heart to make it possible for us to love the Lord our God with all our heart and soul (Deuteronomy 30:6). It is the crucifixion of the “old man” (Romans 6:6; Ephesians 4:22-24; Galatians 2:20), the destruction of the “carnal mind” (Romans 8:5-10), the purging of the fruitbearing branch so “it may bring forth more fruit” (John 15:2). It is the “cleansing from all sin” – “from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:7, 9).
10. Sanctification
Sanctification in the sense of the above cleansing, and in the sense of a complete dedication to God, including a full and unreserved “setting apart” or “consecration” of the life to God, is a definite, instantaneous work of grace, obtainable by faith on the part of the justified believer. (See Romans 5:1, 2: “... justified by faith ... peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand and rejoice....” Also see 1 John 1:9: “... to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Note also Titus 2:14: “... redeem from all iniquity and purify...” and Acts 26:18: “... forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them which are sanctified.” Also refer to the following Scriptures for those who “are sanctified”: Acts 20:32; 26:18; 1 Corinthians 1:2, 6-10; Hebrews 2:11; 10:14; Jude 1).
This is purity and dedication; it is not maturity, but the crisis experience that marks the beginning of the sanctified life, in which there is certainly room for development, progress, and growth in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18). But remember we must get into this grace before we can grow in it.
It is not absolute perfection, not angelic perfection; not “sinless perfection,” if the term is used to imply the impossibility of a sanctified person’s falling into sin. We do not believe it is impossible for the sanctified to commit sin; but we do believe it is possible for a sanctified person not to commit sin (Luke 1:73-75; Titus 2:11, 12; 1 John 1:7; 2:1, 6; 3:5-10; 5:18). We are aware of John’s statement in 1 John 1:8, but these words apply to those who deny the need for cleansing, not to those who have experienced it and are living the sanctified life.
This is Christian perfection – in which we love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbors as ourselves (Mark 12:29-31); in which we love Christ and keep His commandments (John 14:15), among which is this, “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not” (1 John 2:1).
The sanctified life is one of separation from the world, a selfless life, a life of devotion to all the will of God, a life of holiness in accordance with Romans 6:22; 12:1, 2; 2 Corinthians 7:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:7; 5:23; Hebrews 12:14; James 1:27; and 1 Peter 1:15, 16. It is a life controlled by “perfect love” which “casteth out fear” (1 John 4:16-21).

Our Beliefs | IPHC

 

[child of Jesus]

But, you can find legalists pretty much anywhere. From Calvinism you get the Hyper-Calvinists that have this elitist attitude because they're part of the elect...Catholics that think they're holier than Protestants because they're part of the "One True Church"...etc...

Then, flip the coin...you've got folks who think they can live however they want, so long as they say a little prayer before they go to bed every night, and everything is peachy...

It's way too easy to become either too religious or too worldly...there has to be balance...and as long as we keep our focus on Christ, and not on ourselves, I believe we will find it.

amen

ps: i agree the hyper-cals are waaaaaaaaaaay out there.