The Holiness Movement - sound doctrine?

[child of Jesus]

Before froggy shows up and this turns into a he said/she said Law thread ...

No orthodox Christian would ever say that we can just do whatever we like. The difference between Perfectionism and orthodox Christianity is the proper distinction between Law and Gospel.

The law says to be holy, to be perfect, to be like God. The law shows us that not only are we incapable of being perfect, when it comes right down to it, we don't really even want to. Not really.

I can't think of a more prideful thing than to claim that one has stopped sinning. It is not only impossible this side of the resurrection, it is very dangerous to think so.

It also pegs out the irony gauge. Claiming not to sin is obviously and inherently sinful.

Here is the Gospel: Christ is our righteousness.

Only in him are we made perfect. Only in him can we be made holy. God himself does this, not we ourselves; not because of any effort on our part, not because of any decision we make or work we might do, but simply for the sake of Jesus Christ and the Father's love for him.

Does that mean that we can just keep on sinning willy-nilly? Obviously not. That would be unbelief and a blasphemy of God's holy name. Yet we have two wills battling it out inside us. The will of our flesh can do nothing but sin. The will of our spirit is holy and righteous before God.

We must live in constant repentance not just for our sins but for our utter sinfulness. We must cling to the cross and hold God to his promises.

The battle continues.


.

TRUTH!

 

[child of Jesus]

I've yet to meet a Christian of the Holiness persuasion that thinks they are sinless. I agree that anyone that would say something like that is sinning because they are lying...not only to us and themselves, but most of all, to God...

It seems that you're looking at this from the extreme angle...correct me if I'm wrong...but this is similar to the issue I used to have with Calvinists...but then when I did some research I saw that it wasn't Calvinists I had a problem with, but Hyper-Calvinists.

I totally agree that God is the one who makes us holy...and I don't believe you'll find a Holiness believer with any lick of sense that would say otherwise...and that's exactly what this is about...the belief that sanctification (Christian Perfection) is another work of the Holy Spirit, separate from regeneration, in the believer's life...

These two sections from the Articles of Faith for the IPHC do an excellent job of explaining this...much better than I could, anyway...


Our Beliefs | IPHC

hi Drew!
thanks for the AoF! helpful....

unless i missed it though, what happened to confessing our sins and knowing He is faithful to forgive and cleanse us?

not sure if sin gets burned/purged out of us, Drew, as the AoF said.

i thought the decree of NOT GUILTY was a Judicial Work of God Who imputes Christ's Righteousness to us at salvation?

do we get with the program and separate ourselves from the ways of the world and stop following the former lusts? WOW....not doing so hurts when those Heavenly pruning shears come out - YES! we work hard to STOP SINNING.

but TRUTHFULLY we sin every single day by falling short of God's Perfect Standards...thank God Jesus FULFILLED ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS!!

anyways....not enough energy to choke down a camel, so i'll let the little gnat fly away home

thanks Drew

 

[Big Drew]

hi Drew!
thanks for the AoF! helpful....

unless i missed it though, what happened to confessing our sins and knowing He is faithful to forgive and cleanse us?

not sure if sin gets burned/purged out of us, Drew, as the AoF said.

i thought the decree of NOT GUILTY was a Judicial Work of God Who imputes Christ's Righteousness to us at salvation?

do we get with the program and separate ourselves from the ways of the world and stop following the former lusts? WOW....not doing so hurts when those Heavenly pruning shears come out - YES! we work hard to STOP SINNING.

but TRUTHFULLY we sin every single day by falling short of God's Perfect Standards...thank God Jesus FULFILLED ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS!!

anyways....not enough energy to choke down a camel, so i'll let the little gnat fly away home

thanks Drew

I believe you're looking for articles 7 and 8.

7. The Efficacy of the Blood of Jesus
We believe in the efficacy and sufficiency of the shed blood of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins committed in the past: for the regeneration, or new birth from above, of penitent sinners, and for salvation or deliverance from sin and sinning (Matthew 26:28; Luke 22:20; Acts 20:28; Romans 5:9; Ephesians 1:7; 2:13; Colossians 1:14, 20; 1 Peter 1:18, 19; 1 John 1:7; Revelation 1:5; 5:9; 1 John 2:1; 3:5-10; 5:18; Romans 6:22; 7:24, 25; 8:1-4).
8. Justification by Faith
We believe, teach and firmly maintain the scriptural doctrine of justification by faith alone (Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8, 9; Titus 3:4-7). We do not believe that any sort or degree of good works can procure or contribute toward our justification or salvation. This is accomplished solely and exclusively on the basis of our faith in the shed blood, the resurrection, and the justifying righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 4:23-25; 5:1-11, 20; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

 

[Edial]

......but this is similar to the issue I used to have with Calvinists...but then when I did some research I saw that it wasn't Calvinists I had a problem with, but Hyper-Calvinists.
...

Great analogy Drew.

I made a similar mistake some time ago and was wondering why are those guys up in arms.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Big Drew]

Great analogy Drew.

I made a similar mistake some time ago and was wondering why are those guys up in arms.

Thanks,
Ed

lol...Yeah...I post some on another board and there are quite a few Hyper-Calvinists there...at the time it led me to believe that all Calvinists are rude, crude, and socially unacceptable...you know, the complete opposite of being Christlike...then I notice this one poster, very polite and courteous, who says he's a Calvinist...I'm like, "Umm...are you sure about that?" So we get into a PM conversation, he hooks me up with all kinds of material on what pure Calvinists believe...come to find out, I'm not all that far off from them, theologically...minus a point or two...

I think we all fall into the stereotype trap at some point or another. But since that experience, I wanna do my research to know how much is truth and how much is fabrication on what certain groups believe.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

So we can just DO whatever we like?

No truly regenerate, reborn new creature in Christ Jesus would ever need to consider such a question at any length.

 

[Big Drew]

No truly regenerate, reborn new creature in Christ Jesus would ever need to consider such a question at any length.

Ah the old No True Scotsman fallacy. Gotta love it....

 

[VolRaider]

I would say that once spiritual maturity settles in and one starts seriously and soberly reflecting on Heaven, God and Christ, outside of the commentaries of many teachers, one simply should not be able to say "I achieved sinlessness" without even a twinge of pride or self-righteousness.

If we still are capable saying so without our hearts condemning us, then our understanding of The Heavens is so incomplete, so earthly, it is not much different than that of Islam whose Heaven is based on earthly understanding of pleasure and bliss.
Why go to Heaven if all I would see there is a bunch of "sinless Eds" .

Thanks,
In Christ,
Ed

Sure there are "sinless Eds." To tell you the truth, though, I have never met anybody that said they are sinless. Most people would not dare say that. I was lucky enough to get to know my great grandmother, who was a Nazarene. She never remotely hinted at being perfect. She lived a modest life and loved the Lord.

 

[VolRaider]

lol...Yeah...I post some on another board and there are quite a few Hyper-Calvinists there...at the time it led me to believe that all Calvinists are rude, crude, and socially unacceptable...you know, the complete opposite of being Christlike...then I notice this one poster, very polite and courteous, who says he's a Calvinist...I'm like, "Umm...are you sure about that?" So we get into a PM conversation, he hooks me up with all kinds of material on what pure Calvinists believe...come to find out, I'm not all that far off from them, theologically...minus a point or two...

I think we all fall into the stereotype trap at some point or another. But since that experience, I wanna do my research to know how much is truth and how much is fabrication on what certain groups believe.

Wesley said he was a "hair's breath" from Calvinism. Yet some of his beliefs look Eastern. Sounds like he admired many Christians across the board. What a concept.
The stereotype of "sinless Ed" is not any different than the Calvinist who says he's saved and elected and proceeds to act like an obnoxious goon because - harumph, harumph - he CAN. After all, he's elected. These stereotypes exist because these people are out there, but they are few and far between. Heck, I'm an East Tennessean, so if stereotypes were true then I would be in my overalls, spitting 'backer juice and twanging on my jawharp instead of typing right now!

 

[child of Jesus]

lol...Yeah...I post some on another board and there are quite a few Hyper-Calvinists there...at the time it led me to believe that all Calvinists are rude, crude, and socially unacceptable...you know, the complete opposite of being Christlike...then I notice this one poster, very polite and courteous, who says he's a Calvinist...I'm like, "Umm...are you sure about that?" So we get into a PM conversation, he hooks me up with all kinds of material on what pure Calvinists believe...come to find out, I'm not all that far off from them, theologically...minus a point or two...

I think we all fall into the stereotype trap at some point or another. But since that experience, I wanna do my research to know how much is truth and how much is fabrication on what certain groups believe.

 

[child of Jesus]

MOVING ON:

what about the foundation of the sects that emerged from the Holiness movement?

what are they, and what doctrine/practises did they jettison, and what did they keep?

 

[Edial]

Sure there are "sinless Eds." To tell you the truth, though, I have never met anybody that said they are sinless. Most people would not dare say that. I was lucky enough to get to know my great grandmother, who was a Nazarene. She never remotely hinted at being perfect. She lived a modest life and loved the Lord.

 

[child of Jesus]

I believe you're looking for articles 7 and 8.

hi Drew!
thanks.

i noticed it said forgiveness of PAST SINS.

do i have to maintain my salvation by becoming (almost) sinless?

what happens if i die with unconfessed sin?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

MOVING ON:

what about the foundation of the sects that emerged from the Holiness movement?

what are they, and what doctrine/practises did they jettison, and what did they keep?

Inquiring minds want to know

 

[Big Drew]

hi Drew!
thanks.

i noticed it said forgiveness of PAST SINS.

do i have to maintain my salvation by becoming (almost) sinless?

what happens if i die with unconfessed sin?

Can you show me a denomination's Articles of Faith that says we need to repent daily? I've never read one...there are lots of things that aren't covered in faith statements, but we're taught them...I think you're looking for errors where none are...sorry.

 

[child of Jesus]

Can you show me a denomination's Articles of Faith that says we need to repent daily? I've never read one...there are lots of things that aren't covered in faith statements, but we're taught them...I think you're looking for errors where none are...sorry.

looking for errors? yes, i am.

they don't always appear on AoF, Drew...they manifest in the individuals who end up trapped in cults.

did i miss a line-up where we take a number in order to be permitted to ask questions?

i'm asking questions.

here's why i asked that question:

i had a long series of conversations with a poor brainwashed soul (yes, sounds harsh, but after months of discussion, i am fairly certain if St Paul were there, the man would have been anathema)

his denom's are AoG/and UCoG

he believed that since we are forgiven for PAST SINS, we now have to maintain our salvation by learning to keep Mosaic Law: oddly, he had been taught it was OK to NOT obey the 4th Commandment

over and over and over the man's proof texts were wrenched from context, and made to tragically say we are in fact under a different NEW Covenant which is a dreadful tangle of Grace and Law (which is nothing more than LAW). i talked and listened and pleaded to no avail.

and he went about teaching others the same: another christ and another gospel. and he was blissfully and proudly AoG. he believed by keeping Mosaic Law we are made righteous AFTER the OFFER of salvation (?) by Grace (?)

one sad example...here it is in MINIMAL context, followed by his (apparently) only knowledge of it:

Matthew 19
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.


but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments


so please, Drew: may we get HONEST about what error looks like?

~ child.

 

[Big Drew]

looking for errors? yes, i am.

they don't always appear on AoF, Drew...they manifest in the individuals who end up trapped in cults.

did i miss a line-up where we take a number in order to be permitted to ask questions?

i'm asking questions.

here's why i asked that question:

i had a long series of conversations with a poor brainwashed soul (yes, sounds harsh, but after months of discussion, i am fairly certain if St Paul were there, the man would have been anathema)

his denom's are AoG/and UCoG

he believed that since we are forgiven for PAST SINS, we now have to maintain our salvation by learning to keep Mosaic Law: oddly, he had been taught it was OK to NOT obey the 4th Commandment

over and over and over the man's proof texts were wrenched from context, and made to tragically say we are in fact under a different NEW Covenant which is a dreadful tangle of Grace and Law (which is nothing more than LAW). i talked and listened and pleaded to no avail.

and he went about teaching others the same: another christ and another gospel. and he was blissfully and proudly AoG. he believed by keeping Mosaic Law we are made righteous AFTER the OFFER of salvation (?) by Grace (?)

one sad example...here it is in MINIMAL context, followed by his (apparently) only knowledge of it:

Matthew 19
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.


but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments


so please, Drew: may we get HONEST about what error looks like?

~ child.

AoG isn't even an denomination within the Holiness Movement...so why even bring them up?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

AoG isn't even an denomination within the Holiness Movement...so why even bring them up?

Arn't they sprouted directly from the movement. Don't they hold to very similar (controvertial) beliefs?

All I care about is, what do they practice...is it biblical. Is it sound doctrine.

 

[Big Drew]

Arn't they sprouted directly from the movement. Don't they hold to very similar (controvertial) beliefs?

All I care about is, what do they practice...is it biblical. Is it sound doctrine.

No...AoG is from the Pentecostal Movement, which took place a few years after the Holiness Movement.

AoG believes in progressive sanctification...where Holiness churches(Pentecostal or not) believe in Entire Sanctification. This is the biggest factor in what makes a church Holiness.

As I believe has already been stated...there are several Holiness denominations that are not Pentecostal or Charismatic.

 

[child of Jesus]

AoG isn't even an denomination within the Holiness Movement...so why even bring them up?

why not bring them up?

the point was AoF + PAST SINS = man deceived, fell away under Law.

anyways: this whole "oh, that's not MY sister, but she looks like her" is tiresome. IS IT ERROR OR IS IT NOT?

here's one reason ppl might just get a tad confuzzled - please correct any errors, Drew:

Classical Pentecostalism

Classical Pentecostalism is the earliest form of Pentecostalism and is divided into three major orientations/origins: Wesleyan-holiness, Reformed-Higher Life, and Oneness denominations.[37] Examples of Wesleyan holiness denominations include the Church of God in Christ and the International Pentecostal Holiness Church (IPHC). The International Church of the Foursquare Gospel and the Assemblies of God are examples of the Reformed branch.[37][38] The major Oneness churches include the United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) and the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World (PAW). With the exception of Oneness Pentecostals, classical Pentecostal churches share basic beliefs with the rest of evangelical Christianity.

The difference between Wesleyan and non-Wesleyan Pentecostals is largely over understanding of sanctification. Wesleyan Pentecostals believe that sanctification is an experience or crisis event that occurs after salvation and before Spirit baptism. This experience cleanses the believer, rooting out the sinful, fallen nature.

Non-Wesleyan Pentecostals believe that sanctification is a life-long process. In addition to the Reformed and Higher Life labels, many non-Wesleyan Pentecostal groups are also classified as Finished Work or Baptistic Pentecostals.[37]


i care because i talk to others all the time about their beliefs....i want to understand where these ideas are coming from.

~ c.