The Hoax of the Three Days and Three Nights

[Ben007]

On the third day or in three days, simply means after a short period of time. (Hosea 6:2)

Night or day for three days, as we have in the request of Esther to fast for her, means three days or three nights whether one follows the tradition to fast by day or by night. Those terms were used here because it was in the Diaspora where most Persians followed the tradition to fast by night. So, Esther's maids who were not Jewish, would share Esther's pain by showing their solidarity with their night fast. (Esther 4:16)

The case of Jonah dispenses all explanation because it happened during a vision. Therefore metaphorical language. That could be the entire three days and three nights, since everything is possible in a vision or dream. (Jonah 2:1)

Now, for the three days and three nights we are talking about, for Jesus to spend in the tomb, according to Matthew 12:40, the writer must have had a very poor insight about parables or metaphorical language to draw his prophecy in the terms of Jonah's allegory. If he had used the language of Esther or Hosea, he could have saved his prophecy from being a hoax, but now he must account for the whole three days and three nights or parts thereof.

We don't even need another gospel writer to contradict the one of Matthew. This contradicts himself as he declares that the next day, the one following the Day of Preparation, the chief Priests asked Pilate for a guard of soldiers to watch the tomb area for three days. (Mat. 27:62-64) The Jewish Preparation Day is always Friday, and the following day is the Sabbath.

Then, after that Sabbath, as the first day was dawning, the women went to see the sepulcher, there was an earthquake, an "angel" came down from Heaven, removed the stone, and the tomb was empty. Someone had cheated the angel by raising Jesus from there long before the "angel" could at least be an eyewitness to the resurrection.

Based on the Jewish method that a whole day or night can be accounted for any part of the day or night, we can consider the first day for those minutes that took Joseph of Arimathea to get Jesus into the tomb before sunset. The first night from sunset to sundawn of Saturday, the second day from sundawn Saturday to sunset that Saturday, and the second night from sunset that Saturday to the sundawn of the first day. It was still dark when the women arrived at the tomb to find it empty. Therefore we are missing a whole day and a whole night to save Matthew 12:40 from becoming a prophetical hoax and a classical contradiction in the NT.
Any volunteers to solve this puzzle?

Ben

 

[Standing Up]

" Any volunteers to solve this puzzle?

Ben "

Sure.

But the solution isn't the well-known traditional one (Fri-Sun) or the one that sprang up some 100 years ago (Wed-Sat), but rather the one that "competed" against the Fri-Sun custom for the first few hundred years after Christ Jesus rose out from the dead. It's the one from scripture that the apostles taught the very early church.

And I'm not sure how things work in this debate section.

 

[Ben007]

" Any volunteers to solve this puzzle?

Ben "

Sure.

But the solution isn't the well-known traditional one (Fri-Sun) or the one that sprang up some 100 years ago (Wed-Sat), but rather the one that "competed" against the Fri-Sun custom for the first few hundred years after Christ Jesus rose out from the dead. It's the one from scripture that the apostles taught the very early church.

And I'm not sure how things work in this debate section.

-------------------

Standing up, tell me something. If I asked you to open your NT and point to me an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus, would you be able to?

What the Apostles taught the very early disciples, which were the Nazarenes, is not registered in the NT.
Ben

 

[Standing Up]

-------------------

Standing up, tell me something. If I asked you to open your NT and point to me an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus, would you be able to?

What the Apostles taught the very early disciples, which were the Nazarenes, is not registered in the NT.
Ben

Yes, there were eyewitnesses.

Don't know what your last comment means.

This isn't the place to discuss things. This is a debate place. There's a place in this forum to issue a challenge for debate (like your first post). Then it is posted here. Response. Answer. Response... typically 3x.

So, how do you want to proceed?

 

[lucaspa]

-------------------

Standing up, tell me something. If I asked you to open your NT and point to me an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus, would you be able to?

If you mean a real-time watching the dead Jesus come to life, no. What we have instead are eyewitnesses to the risen Christ. People who saw him after the empty tomb was found.

I would note here that the Jews could not produce a body, either. In the Talmud and Midrash, there are alternative explanations to resurrection for the missing body, but there is no attempt to provide a missing body.

The major accusation is that the disciples stole the body. The oldest gospel -- Mark -- has a simple, small stone. When we get to Luke, the stone is so large it would take a couple of strong men to move it. Matthew adds a Roman legionaire standing guard. The changes are to counter the accusations of body stealing.

Now, Matthew 28:1 it states: "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre."

That "as it began to dawn" puts them in the third day.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD hat

Moving this to Exploring Christianity

 

[Ben007]

If you mean a real-time watching the dead Jesus come to life, no. What we have instead are eyewitnesses to the risen Christ. People who saw him after the empty tomb was found.

Okay, no eyewitness, thank you. It means that the whole thing about the resurrection of Jesus is relegated into a matter of faith. Therefore, there is no such a thing as eyewitnesses to the risen Christ. There were eyewitnesses that Jesus was not dead but alive as he himself proved so through many convincing ways, behaving as any human being does by eating and drinking. And take to memory what Luke says that Jesus appeared to his disciples for 40 days after his sufferings or passion. (Acts 1:3) To appear after one's suffering (on the cross) is not proof even that he died; let alone that he resurrected. Sorry Lucaspa.

I would note here that the Jews could not produce a body, either. In the Talmud and Midrash, there are alternative explanations to resurrection for the missing body, but there is no attempt to provide a missing body.

I believe that the only one who could provide the missing body was Joseph of Arimathea. But he was much more smart than that. He knew that Pilate would not only get Jesus back on the cross but also Joseph himself for having cheated on him. So, Joseph had to leave Israel with Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Don't forget that after those 40 days nothing was ever heard about these three people again.

The major accusation is that the disciples stole the body. The oldest gospel -- Mark -- has a simple, small stone. When we get to Luke, the stone is so large it would take a couple of strong men to move it. Matthew adds a Roman legionaire standing guard. The changes are to counter the accusations of body stealing.

So, the major accusation is that the disciples stole the body. I recommend you to read my thread, "A Challenge to Our Intelligence" in this non-Christian area of the Forum.

Now, Matthew 28:1 it states: "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre." That "as it began to dawn" puts them in the third day.

"As it began to dawn" is not yet day. That's the twilight between night and day. But if I give you the benefit of the doubt, and consider the third day in that "as it began to dawn," I ask you to re-read Matthew 12:40, he said, "three days and three nights." Where is the third night?

 

[Sketcher]

I don't think I have the answer. But I think Dr. Michael Brown either has it or could find it.

 

[aiki]

On the third day or in three days, simply means after a short period of time. (Hosea 6:2)

Uh huh.

Night or day for three days, as we have in the request of Esther to fast for her, means three days or three nights whether one follows the tradition to fast by day or by night. Those terms were used here because it was in the Diaspora where most Persians followed the tradition to fast by night. So, Esther's maids who were not Jewish, would share Esther's pain by showing their solidarity with their night fast. (Esther 4:16)

Uh huh.

The case of Jonah dispenses all explanation because it happened during a vision. Therefore metaphorical language. That could be the entire three days and three nights, since everything is possible in a vision or dream. (Jonah 2:1)

Uh, the "case of Jonah" happened in a vision? Why do you say that?

Now, for the three days and three nights we are talking about, for Jesus to spend in the tomb, according to Matthew 12:40, the writer must have had a very poor insight about parables or metaphorical language to draw his prophecy in the terms of Jonah's allegory.

Perhaps Matthew didn't view the story of Jonah in the belly of a whale as a "vision" or metaphor, like you do.

If he had used the language of Esther or Hosea, he could have saved his prophecy from being a hoax, but now he must account for the whole three days and three nights or parts thereof.

Oh?

We don't even need another gospel writer to contradict the one of Matthew. This contradicts himself as he declares that the next day, the one following the Day of Preparation, the chief Priests asked Pilate for a guard of soldiers to watch the tomb area for three days. (Mat. 27:62-64) The Jewish Preparation Day is always Friday, and the following day is the Sabbath.

Then, after that Sabbath, as the first day was dawning, the women went to see the sepulcher, there was an earthquake, an "angel" came down from Heaven, removed the stone, and the tomb was empty. Someone had cheated the angel by raising Jesus from there long before the "angel" could at least be an eyewitness to the resurrection.

Oh? How do you know that?

Based on the Jewish method that a whole day or night can be accounted for any part of the day or night, we can consider the first day for those minutes that took Joseph of Arimathea to get Jesus into the tomb before sunset. The first night from sunset to sundawn of Saturday, the second day from sundawn Saturday to sunset that Saturday, and the second night from sunset that Saturday to the sundawn of the first day. It was still dark when the women arrived at the tomb to find it empty. Therefore we are missing a whole day and a whole night to save Matthew 12:40 from becoming a prophetical hoax and a classical contradiction in the NT.
Any volunteers to solve this puzzle?

You can find any number of reasonable explanations on the 'net. Just do a search.

I'm curious why you emphasize this business of the exactness of the three days in your thinking rather than the fact that Christ rose from the dead. It seems to me you're quite missing the point of the narrative.

Peace.

 

[ebia]

"A day and a night" operates as a phrase singifying a single night/day cycle or part thereof. "Three days and three nights" is a plural of that singifying three of those night/day cycles or parts thereof. To break it down into its individual words and count the days and nights independently misses how the phrase works.

 

[Ben007]

Yes, there were eyewitnesses.

Don't know what your last comment means.

This isn't the place to discuss things. This is a debate place. There's a place in this forum to issue a challenge for debate (like your first post). Then it is posted here. Response. Answer. Response... typically 3x.

So, how do you want to proceed?

-----------------

I simply would like to have an answer to my question about at least an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus. You say, "there were eyewitnesses". Would you please, oblige. I will be settle with at least one.
Ben

 

[aiki]

I simply would like to have an answer to my question about at least an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus. You say, "there were eyewitnesses". Would you please, oblige. I will be settle with at least one.

Let's see...Well, there was God, and Jesus, and the angels - they all are eye-witnesses to The Resurrection. And then there were the disciples who saw him dead on the cross and then alive again a short time later. They might not have seen Christ actually rise up from the dead, but seeing him alive after he was clearly expired is close enough for me.

Peace.

 

[Van]

The actual hoax being perpetrated here, is the hoax of a supposed contradiction.

Three days and three nights is just a manner of speaking, a Jewish idiom for the day after tomorrow. Thus Sunday is "three days and three nights" from Friday. The hoax is to claim the author meant three daylight periods and three nighttime periods, when that is simply not so.

 

[Standing Up]

-----------------

I simply would like to have an answer to my question about at least an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus. You say, "there were eyewitnesses". Would you please, oblige. I will be settle with at least one.
Ben

Sure.

Let's assume that you believe that you will be resurrected at some point after your death. The reason for this assumption doesn't affect the truth, but may make it easier for you to see, hear, and understand.

Eze. 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Okay. So now you'rre dead and in your grave. Behold, the LORD opens your grave and what? He causes resurrection. Who comes out of your grave? Your mother? Your father? No, you come out of your grave.

Another less personal example. Lazarus dies, is entombed, and the stone is rolled in front of his grave.

Jn. 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
v17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in the grave four days already.
v38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
v39a Jesus said, Take ye away the stone.
v43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
v44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Understand so far?

Someone dies and is buried. God calls forth the dead from their grave and that person rises out from the dead.

So, now to Jesus Christ and the eyewitnesses.

Mt. 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
v59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
v60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
v64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
v65 Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make [it] as sure as ye can.
v66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.

So, Jesus Christ is dead and buried in a tomb with a stone rolled across the entrance, sealed, and watched.

Mt. 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

Now, when God rolls back the grave stone and calls forth someone out from their grave, who will arise? The one who had been in the grave.

Mt. 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

The "His" does not refer to the angel of the Lord sitting on the stone, but instead is a description of Christ Jesus coming forth from His grave in glory. That's what happens. Whoever is in the grave comes forth at resurrection. He who was dead is alive forevermore.

Compare the descriptions of His countenance and raiment with descriptions in Daniel, Mt. Transfiguration, and Revelation. They are pre, as, and post descriptions of God Incarnate, Emmanuel, Jesus Christ. Mt. 28:3 is Christ Jesus resurrected in glory.

Mt. 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men].

The guards were the very first eyewitnesses. What did they do?

Mt. 28:11 Now when they (the women) were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.

Some believed and some did not. Do you believe?

 

[Ben007]

Sure.

Let's assume that you believe that you will be resurrected at some point after your death. The reason for this assumption doesn't affect the truth, but may make it easier for you to see, hear, and understand.

Eze. 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Okay. So now you'rre dead and in your grave. Behold, the LORD opens your grave and what? He causes resurrection. Who comes out of your grave? Your mother? Your father? No, you come out of your grave.

Another less personal example. Lazarus dies, is entombed, and the stone is rolled in front of his grave.

Jn. 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
v17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in the grave four days already.
v38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
v39a Jesus said, Take ye away the stone.
v43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
v44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Understand so far?

Someone dies and is buried. God calls forth the dead from their grave and that person rises out from the dead.

So, now to Jesus Christ and the eyewitnesses.

Mt. 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
v59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
v60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
v64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
v65 Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make [it] as sure as ye can.
v66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.

So, Jesus Christ is dead and buried in a tomb with a stone rolled across the entrance, sealed, and watched.

Mt. 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

Now, when God rolls back the grave stone and calls forth someone out from their grave, who will arise? The one who had been in the grave.

Mt. 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

The "His" does not refer to the angel of the Lord sitting on the stone, but instead is a description of Christ Jesus coming forth from His grave in glory. That's what happens. Whoever is in the grave comes forth at resurrection. He who was dead is alive forevermore.

Compare the descriptions of His countenance and raiment with descriptions in Daniel, Mt. Transfiguration, and Revelation. They are pre, as, and post descriptions of God Incarnate, Emmanuel, Jesus Christ. Mt. 28:3 is Christ Jesus resurrected in glory.

Mt. 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men].

The guards were the very first eyewitnesses. What did they do?

Mt. 28:11 Now when they (the women) were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.

Some believed and some did not. Do you believe?

------------------------

How can I believe? Are you trying to make me take your word for it? You did write a lot of interesting thing above ortherwise, but failed to answer my question. You have presented no eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus. Even the so-called angel, when he removed the stone, what did he tell the women? "As you can see, he is not here." The tomb was empty. And God knows since when. The soldiers did not see a thing because they were sleeping, remember? They had become as dead men because of the earthquake. Try another reading. I am sorry! I am more for facts than for fiction, which is possible to believe only by faith.
Ben

 

[Standing Up]

------------------------

How can I believe? Are you trying to make me take your word for it? You did write a lot of interesting thing above ortherwise,

Thank you.

but failed to answer my question. You have presented no eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus.

Hang on.

Even the so-called angel, when he removed the stone, what did he tell the women? "As you can see, he is not here." The tomb was empty.

That was at a different time period than when He rose. How do we know? Had the women been present when the stone rolled away and Christ was came forth, their reaction would have been like the guards. In fact later Mt. 28:9, they do fall on their faces worshiping when they are in His presence.

And God knows since when. The soldiers did not see a thing because they were sleeping, remember? They had become as dead men because of the earthquake.

Here is where you are wrong. Two things.

One they were instructed to say they were sleeping. Which is not to say that they were.

Two Mt. 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men].

For fear of Him--the One who came back out from the dead.

Like Mt. 28:3 (countenance and raiment), if you will compare what happens to people in the presence of God Almighty, you will find that they react like everyone else. Again, Mt. 28:9--the women fall on their faces.

Try another reading. I am sorry! I am more for facts than for fiction, which is possible to believe only by faith.
Ben

You asked for eyewitnesses. The guards were there. They had been posted. When the tomb stone is rolled back, the one inside comes forth in glory of countenced lighting, raiment whiter than the fuller's. For fear of Him, the guards fall down as if dead. When He leaves, they arise and some report. Some went for the money, but not all.

Do you believe in your own resurrection? When God opens the graves? Who comes forth out of yours?

 

[Ben007]

Thank you.



Hang on.




That was at a different time period than when He rose. How do we know? Had the women been present when the stone rolled away and Christ was came forth, their reaction would have been like the guards. In fact later Mt. 28:9, they do fall on their faces worshiping when they are in His presence.



Here is where you are wrong. Two things.

One they were instructed to say they were sleeping. Which is not to say that they were.

Two Mt. 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men].

For fear of Him--the One who came back out from the dead.

Like Mt. 28:3 (countenance and raiment), if you will compare what happens to people in the presence of God Almighty, you will find that they react like everyone else. Again, Mt. 28:9--the women fall on their faces.



You asked for eyewitnesses. The guards were there. They had been posted. When the tomb stone is rolled back, the one inside comes forth in glory of countenced lighting, raiment whiter than the fuller's. For fear of Him, the guards fall down as if dead. When He leaves, they arise and some report. Some went for the money, but not all.

Do you believe in your own resurrection? When God opens the graves? Who comes forth out of yours?

---------------

Here is the case between the "angel" and the soldiers: "Suddenly, there was a mighty earthquake, as the angel of the Lord descended from Heaven. He came to the stone, rolled it back, and sat on it. In appearance, he, (the angel) resembled the flash of lightning while his garments were as dazzling as snow. The guards grew paralized with fear of him, (the angel) and fell down like dead men. Then, the angel spoke, addressing the women: Do not be frightened. I know you are looking for Jesus, the crucified, but he is not here. He has been raised, exactly as he promised. Come and see the place where he was laid."

I believe that at least one thing the angel said right about Jesus. That he had been raised from that tomb. To be risen, one is by the power of God; but to be raised one can be by the power of man. Jesus indeed had been raised from that tomb, and long before the so-called angel of Matthew came to find out that it was already empty.
Ben

 

[Standing Up]

---------------

Here is the case between the "angel" and the soldiers: "Suddenly, there was a mighty earthquake, as the angel of the Lord descended from Heaven. He came to the stone, rolled it back, and sat on it. In appearance, he, (the angel) resembled the flash of lightning while his garments were as dazzling as snow. The guards grew paralized with fear of him, (the angel) and fell down like dead men.

Pause.

Then, the angel spoke, addressing the women: Do not be frightened. I know you are looking for Jesus, the crucified, but he is not here. He has been raised, exactly as he promised. Come and see the place where he was laid."

Later the women will fall at the feet of Jesus, just like the guards.

The two instances are not related in time.

I believe that at least one thing the angel said right about Jesus. That he had been raised from that tomb. To be risen, one is by the power of God; but to be raised one can be by the power of man. Jesus indeed had been raised from that tomb, and long before the so-called angel of Matthew came to find out that it was already empty.

Ben

You're familiar with the burning bush? Study it. Angel of the LORD and the LORD appeared. Relate it to Angel of the LORD descended and the LORD (Jesus Christ) appeared.

With that in mind, and assuming you've studied the appearances of Christ pre and post incarnation in Daniel, Mt. Transfiguration, Revelation, you'll find that the He in Mt. 28:3-4 does not refer to the angel, but to Christ Jesus.

Again, the women don't worship the angel; they stand there talking. Later, they fall at the Lord's feet.

Lastely, you've learned some things that are simply not accurate and are applying them without believing them in any event. Since this is the Explore Christianity, let's look at what the scripture says, not tradition.

The eyewitnesses are the guards. The tomb stone is rolled back. What happens? Whoever is inside comes out. What does he look like? What are the reactions?

Countenance, raiment, worship. The person who comes out is Christ Jesus in glory.

 

[ebia]

------------------------

How can I believe? Are you trying to make me take your word for it? You did write a lot of interesting thing above ortherwise, but failed to answer my question. You have presented no eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus. Even the so-called angel, when he removed the stone, what did he tell the women? "As you can see, he is not here." The tomb was empty. And God knows since when. The soldiers did not see a thing because they were sleeping, remember? They had become as dead men because of the earthquake. Try another reading. I am sorry! I am more for facts than for fiction, which is possible to believe only by faith.
Ben

What exactly do you mean by an "eyewitness to the resurrection"? If you mean somebody who was witness to the overall event we have several documented in the N.T. If you mean somebody who saw the moment Jesus came back to life and stood up we do not.

We have witnesses who saw the empty tomb, and we have witnesses who saw the risen Jesus, (including many who fall into both categories) and that is what's normally meant by eyewitnesses to the resurrection.

 

[Ben007]

What exactly do you mean by an "eyewitness to the resurrection"? If you mean somebody who was witness to the overall event we have several documented in the N.T. If you mean somebody who saw the moment Jesus came back to life and stood up we do not.

We have witnesses who saw the empty tomb, and we have witnesses who saw the risen Jesus, (including many who fall into both categories) and that is what's normally meant by eyewitnesses to the resurrection.

-----------------

I mean someone who actually saw the resurrection. An empty tomb is not proof of resurrection. You have witnesses who saw Jesus after his crucifixion, and this does not mean that he had resurrected. Why don't you take a look at Acts 1:3. Luke says that Jesus showed himself alive for 40 days "after his suffering," which obviously he meant the cross. To be seen alive after one's suffering or passion does not prove even that he died, let alone that he resurrected. Please, I am not making up anything, but working on evidences.
Ben