The Greenlandic Lutheran Thread

[Edna Davidsen]

Hi all,

I'm Edna, a Filipino living in Greenland.

I reached out to the owner of Christian forum earlier today because I'm a bit confusing how to connect with like-minded Christians.

There are so many possibilities here, but they suggested I introduced myself in the forum that is home-base for your congregation with much be this one. I'm a huge, as in H-U-G-E Martin Luther fan.

My question: Why do you appreciate Christianity as presented by Martin Luther?

Existed to see what this will lead to

Happy new year to all.

 

[mnorian]

Hi all,

I'm Edna, a Filipino living in Greenland.

I reached out to the owner of Christian forum earlier today because I'm a bit confusing how to connect with like-minded Christians.

There are so many possibilities here, but they suggested I introduced myself in the forum that is home-base for your congregation with much be this one. I'm a huge, as in H-U-G-E Martin Luther fan.

My question: Why do you appreciate Christianity as presented by Martin Luther?

Existed to see what this will lead to

Happy new year to all.

I appreciate that Luther started the Protestant reformation. From wiki:

"Luther came to reject several teachings and practices of the Roman Catholic Church. He strongly disputed the Catholic view on indulgences. Luther proposed an academic discussion of the practice and efficacy of indulgences in his Ninety-five Theses of 1517. His refusal to renounce all of his writings at the demand of Pope Leo X in 1520 and the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V at the Diet of Worms in 1521 resulted in his excommunication by the Pope and condemnation as an outlaw by the Holy Roman Emperor.

Luther taught that salvation and, consequently, eternal life are not earned by good deeds but are received only as the free gift of God's grace through the believer's faith in Jesus Christ as redeemer from sin. His theology challenged the authority and office of the Pope by teaching that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge from God[4] and opposed sacerdotal-ism by considering all baptized Christians to be a holy priesthood.[5] Those who identify with these, and all of Luther's wider teachings, are called Lutherans, though Luther insisted on Christian or Evangelical (German: evangelisch) as the only acceptable names for individuals who professed Christ."

 

[Paidiske]

I'm Anglican, but Luther and Lutherans had a huge impact on the formation of my church.

I think one of the big things for me was the shift into insisting that worship be offered in a language people could understand and participate in. Rather than it being a clerical performance which people might or might not even understand.

 

[Tigger45]

I like how as a professor he used ECF writings yet kept them submissive to scripture.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Hello, and warmly welcome!

I'm a Finnish Lutheran and for us Nordic Lutherans, I think, Martin Luther and the German/continental European reformers are a bit more distant figures, whereas we are more likely to look up to our local reformers -- Agricola, Juusten, Petri: local Catholic bishops and priests who "went Lutheran" -- many of whom trained under Luther, Melanchthon, Bugenhagen before returning to their homelands having seen the light, so to speak, and feeling the need to clean up the local churches from "rotteness" that had crept in.

Catholic Mass back in the day used to be more like a performance, a show in which professional performers (the clergy) perfomed rituals in foreign language while the audience (the congregation) had to stand in the background and just watch. Ordinary members of the church were not invited to participate and were discouraged to explore the Bible and our faith on their own. Everything, the sacraments, their faith, their interaction with God, had to be filtered through the professional army of churchmen and/or the saints. Back then, you were disencouraged to talk directly to God by yourself: you "talked" to a priest and you "talked" via a saint.

Lutheranism changed that relationship from nonparticipatory "audience" and "subjects" to active participants and members of the universal church, above all by allowing Mass to be conducted in vernacular, in people's own language, as mentioned by Paidiske, and the Bible and Bible-based theology (the Cathecism) to be mass printed and distributed in people's own languages so that people themselves could explore their faith and talk to God without the need of these "interpreters" (Catholic clergy and saints) in between. We can confess our sins anywhere anytime we feel the need. There's no rule we have to go to a church booth for that so and so many times a month or perform elaborate rituals in front of statues of saints just to tell God we have sinned.

I think that was and is the most fundamental thing. From my personal experience, confessing my faith together with fellow believers in my non-native English (or Swedish for that matter) is a performance for me -- I'm merely citing the words I know I'm supposed to cite, more or less -- done for the benefit of the native English-speakers around me so as to be courteous and not to stand out, whereas confessing my faith in my native Finnish is all about my personal faith, if that makes sense.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hello, and warmly welcome!

I'm a Finnish Lutheran and for us Nordic Lutherans, I think, Martin Luther and the German/continental European reformers are a bit more distant figures, whereas we are more likely to look up to our local reformers -- Agricola, Juusten, Petri: local Catholic bishops and priests who "went Lutheran" -- many of whom trained under Luther, Melanchthon, Bugenhagen before returning to their homelands having seen the light, so to speak, and feeling the need to clean up the local churches from "rotteness" that had crept in.

Catholic Mass back in the day used to be more like a performance, a show in which professional performers (the clergy) perfomed rituals in foreign language while the audience (the congregation) had to stand in the background and just watch. Ordinary members of the church were not invited to participate and were discouraged to explore the Bible and our faith on their own. Everything, the sacraments, their faith, their interaction with God, had to be filtered through the professional army of churchmen and/or the saints. Back then, you were disencouraged to talk directly to God by yourself: you "talked" to a priest and you "talked" via a saint.

Lutheranism changed that relationship from nonparticipatory "audience" and "subjects" to active participants and members of the universal church, above all by allowing Mass to be conducted in vernacular, in people's own language, as mentioned by Paidiske, and the Bible and Bible-based theology (the Cathecism) to be mass printed and distributed in people's own languages so that people themselves could explore their faith and talk to God without the need of these "interpreters" (Catholic clergy and saints) in between. We can confess our sins anywhere anytime we feel the need. There's no rule we have to go to a church booth for that so and so many times a month or perform elaborate rituals in front of statues of saints just to tell God we have sinned.

I think that was and is the most fundamental thing. From my personal experience, confessing my faith together with fellow believers in my non-native English (or Swedish for that matter) is a performance for me -- I'm merely citing the words I know I'm supposed to cite, more or less -- done for the benefit of the native English-speakers around me so as to be courteous and not to stand out, whereas confessing my faith in my native Finnish is all about my personal faith, if that makes sense.

Well stated; however Latin was retained where Latin was understood. Luther's first "Lutheran Mass" , "Mass for the Church at Wittenberg" was in Latin; our Choir still does Latin and German selections on rare occasion. As we Lutheran are Western rite Christians and our main service is the Western Mass, I can follow a German Liturgy, the Catholic Extraordinary Form, a Catholic Spanish Funeral Mass, a French Catholic Mass, an Anglican Eucharistic Liturgy. The universality of the Divine Service unites traditional Christians more language divides us.

 

[FireDragon76]

Hi all,

I'm Edna, a Filipino living in Greenland.

I reached out to the owner of Christian forum earlier today because I'm a bit confusing how to connect with like-minded Christians.

There are so many possibilities here, but they suggested I introduced myself in the forum that is home-base for your congregation with much be this one. I'm a huge, as in H-U-G-E Martin Luther fan.

My question: Why do you appreciate Christianity as presented by Martin Luther?

Existed to see what this will lead to

Happy new year to all.

I find the idea of human freedom with responsibility as presented by Luther compelling and it's the only way I find Christianity can be livable in the modern world. I also appreciate that Lutheranism is one of the few Christian religious traditions that doesn't see secularism as inherently problematic, in fact Luther arguably was the first modern secularist when he insisted that religion was not inherently superior to the concerns of this world. This can mean a Lutheran can be, as Dietrich Bonhoeffer put it, a "a person for others", which I believe is most compatible with Jesus own sentiments that he expressed through his teachings and parables.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I have a problem with Dietrich Bonhoeffer regarding "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's"; while morally commendable from a "secular" POV, as a called and ordained Pastor, his commitment to Sola Scriptura fell way short.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Hi all,

I'm Edna, a Filipino living in Greenland.

I reached out to the owner of Christian forum earlier today because I'm a bit confusing how to connect with like-minded Christians.

There are so many possibilities here, but they suggested I introduced myself in the forum that is home-base for your congregation with much be this one. I'm a huge, as in H-U-G-E Martin Luther fan.

My question: Why do you appreciate Christianity as presented by Martin Luther?

Existed to see what this will lead to

Happy new year to all.

I like that Luther was a good Christian yet still appreciated a good beer.

 

[FireDragon76]

I have a problem with Dietrich Bonhoeffer regarding "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's"; while morally commendable from a "secular" POV, as a called and ordained Pastor, his commitment to Sola Scriptura fell way short.

Maybe you could explain that more in depth some time.

Bonhoeffer is probably the reason I am a Christian at all, because for many years I simply walked away from the Church, and when I did become spiritual, it was in a Buddhist context, and I simply wasn't interested in Christianity as it seemed so anti-intellectual, tribalistic, and obsessed with petty morality. If I had found a place like CF at the time, I think I would have headed for the hills, honestly. So, consider my admiration for Pr. Bonhoeffer in light of that. He was the first Christian that really challenged me to take Christianity seriously.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I like that Luther was a good Christian yet still appreciated a good beer.

As do most of us!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Maybe you could explain that more in depth some time.

Bonhoeffer is probably the reason I am a Christian at all, because for many years I simply walked away from the Church, and when I did become spiritual, it was in a Buddhist context, and I simply wasn't interested in Christianity as it seemed so anti-intellectual, tribalistic, and obsessed with petty morality. If I had found a place like CF at the time, I think I would have headed for the hills, honestly. So, consider my admiration for Pr. Bonhoeffer in light of that. He was the first Christian that really challenged me to take Christianity seriously.

Our Lord did not plot against Rome or the corrupt king Herod; he healed the temple guardsman's ear in the garden; and he blessed those who wronged him. Despite his insightful writings, his actions against Hitler were not an imitation of Christ, but rather an attempt to respond in kind. Christ's advice to love your enemies, turn the other cheek, and doing unto others, were cast away for what I see as a different gospel.

Luther has his moments as well with the sanctioning of action against the peasants, and deeply regretted the suffering and death that resulted from that action. One can admire the insight of both; but to look upon Bonhoeffer as a martyr when he was actively trying to kill the leader of his country. To hold him in high esteem for these actions gives credibility to every assassin that ever targeted a political leader that they were angry about.

 

[FireDragon76]

Our Lord did not plot against Rome or the corrupt king Herod; he healed the temple guardsman's ear in the garden; and he blessed those who wronged him. Despite his insightful writings, his actions against Hitler were not an imitation of Christ, but rather an attempt to respond in kind. Christ's advice to love your enemies, turn the other cheek, and doing unto others, were cast away for what I see as a different gospel.

I don't think Bonhoeffer was aiming for vengence on the state. He was trying to spare alot of bloodshed by allowing the military to broker a truce.

Also, to understand his motivations, we must remember Bonhoeffer was very much Augustinian in his anthropology, as many Neo-Orthodox theologians of his era were (Barth, etc.). He did not claim to be free from sin or that his actions were particularly righteous. I think he would not approve of those that see him as a hero standing up to the state in defiance, as a sort of "knight" on a crusade, that is a misreading of his thought.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I don't think Bonhoeffer was aiming for vengence on the state. He was trying to spare alot of bloodshed by allowing the military to broker a truce.

Also, to understand his motivations, we must remember Bonhoeffer was very much Augustinian in his anthropology, as many Neo-Orthodox theologians of his era were (Barth, etc.). He did not claim to be free from sin or that his actions were particularly righteous. I think he would not approve of those that see him as a hero standing up to the state in defiance, as a sort of "knight" on a crusade, that is a misreading of his thought.

Did he ever repent?

Maybe, I missed something, but rebelling against those under whom you are subject, and those who govern, in only a couple examples I gave above, is certainly a sin according to Christ. In all of his writings, I don't recall any repentance.

The question remains, did he repent?

While some (Lutheran) Churches have chosen to give him a "Day" on their calendars along with other "saints", I am grateful that ours has not for the reasons stated. It is very clear that he was a product of the forced union of Protestant and Lutheran Churches in Germany some 200 years ago, and the secular humanistic view of society that developed withing the non Confessional Churches in the years that followed.

In my opinion, "neo-orthodoxy" is a blanket term used to justify heterodoxy.

 

[FireDragon76]

Did he ever repent?

Maybe, I missed something, but rebelling against those under whom you are subject, and those who govern, in only a couple examples I gave above, is certainly a sin according to Christ. In all of his writings, I don't recall any repentance.

That seems a curious interpretation, one that most Americans in the United States, for obvious reasons, would have problems with.

The notions that subjects owe their unwavering obedience to a sovereign is believed to have been part of what allowed the Third Reich to take place. It was only possible in a society that had a cult of obedience.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

That seems a curious interpretation, one that most Americans in the United States, for obvious reasons, would have problems with.

The notions that subjects owe their unwavering obedience to a sovereign is believed to have been part of what allowed the Third Reich to take place. It was only possible in a society that had a cult of obedience.

"most Americans" are not confessional Lutherans; rather they hold various scriptural criticisms which allow them to justify just about everything under the sun from Zionism to reincarnation. In the Bible we continually see Christ and his followers honoring an unjust government simply because it is the government. God often times gives us leaders that we think we should not have (trump in the US and Trudeau here in Canada) not because they are good leaders, but because that are what we deserve, and should take a lesson from.

Justify Bonhoeffer's actions all you want; I still believe that as a Pastor, his position was diametrically opposed to Scripture.