The Greatness of the Great Commision

[Fervent]

Which doesn’t really change anything.

Except to completely undermine your argument. The commission has nothing to do about any kind of "eventual," it is a declaration of a change of program and nothing more. Prior to that point the gospel was restricted to Israel alone, as Jesus made clear in Matthew 15. So when Jesus says "make disciples of the nations" it is opening the scope of eligibility and nothing more. The gospel is no longer the exclusive domain of Israel, the Gentiles have been grafted in.

 

[timothyu]

The gospel is no longer the exclusive domain of Israel, the Gentiles have been grafted in.

Don't forget other nations include the ten other tribes of the House of Israel. 12 nations in total.

 

[Hammster]

Except to completely undermine your argument. The commission has nothing to do about any kind of "eventual," it is a declaration of a change of program and nothing more. Prior to that point the gospel was restricted to Israel alone, as Jesus made clear in Matthew 15. So when Jesus says "make disciples of the nations" it is opening the scope of eligibility and nothing more. The gospel is no longer the exclusive domain of Israel, the Gentiles have been grafted in.

I would probably buy that argument except for the parts where scripture talks about the scope of the kingdom and its growth. But we know that the kingdom is here and now, and that it will grow mightily and when He returns, it’s as a victory King.

 

[Hammster]

Don't forget other nations include the ten other tribes of the House of Israel. 12 nations in total.

One nation made of 12 tribes. But that’s for another thread I suppose.

 

[Fervent]

Don't forget other nations include the ten other tribes of the House of Israel. 12 nations in total.

Sort of, but not exactly. The original tribes other than Benjamin, Judah, parts of Levi, and parts of Reuben were lost after the Assyrian captivity. Unlike Judah and Benjamin, the northern tribes intermingled with their captors and lost trace of their lineage. So technically the tribes of Israel would not be included in "ethne," the fact that there was no longer a pure heritage for the Samarians rendered them "ethne."

 

[Fervent]

I would probably buy that argument except for the parts where scripture talks about the scope of the kingdom and its growth. But we know that the kingdom is here and now, and that it will grow mightily and when He returns, it’s as a victory King.

This is purely about this verse, not the overall teaching of Scripture. I actually agree with you that the gospel will conquer the Earth, it is simply that I don't see that present here. The word used has a historical understanding, and it is significant especially in Matthew's gospel that is so focused on Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. Given Matthew's stress, a declaration that Jesus' Messiahship is not just for the Jewish people but for the world was required and the record of Jesus giving the great commission serves as that expansion.

 

[Mr. M]

when He returns, it’s as a victory King.

You are confused if you think the congregation of witnesses are going to subdue the nations.
2 Thessalonians 1:
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven
with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey
the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from
the glory of His power,
10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

 

[Hammster]

This is purely about this verse, not the overall teaching of Scripture. I actually agree with you that the gospel will conquer the Earth, it is simply that I don't see that present here. The word used has a historical understanding, and it is significant especially in Matthew's gospel that is so focused on Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. Given Matthew's stress, a declaration that Jesus' Messiahship is not just for the Jewish people but for the world was required and the record of Jesus giving the great commission serves as that expansion.

Actually, using Mathew’s gospel, my understanding makes sense. That’s because of context.

 

[Hammster]

You are confused if you think the congregation of witnesses are going to subdue the nations.
2 Thessalonians 1:
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven
with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey
the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from
the glory of His power,
10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

That is concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

 

[Mr. M]

That’s because of context.

The context from Matthew is a change of instructions:
Matthew 10:
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying:
“Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
We are His witnesses, until He returns in vengeance.
Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
This has not changed in 2000 years.

 

[Mr. M]

That is concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

That is past and irrelevant.
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed
from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,
and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This clearly contradicts the notion that the church will have already subdued the nations
prior to Christ's return. If the nations are discipled, why are they all sending their armies
against Jerusalem?

 

[John Mullally]

I have been baffled at where the OP is taking this thread. But then I started reading the book the OP linked to on Post #108. He is basically making points from that book - which states that the Millennium is now. This is a quote straddling pages 518 & 519 from that book.

The Bible is clear: Through baptism, we have been resurrected to eternal life and rule with Christ now, in this age. The First Resurrection is taking place now. Jesus Christ is reigning now (Acts 2:29-36; Rev. 1:5). And this means, of necessity, that the Millennium is taking place now as well.
​

So based upon this book, most of that which is in the book of Revelation took place long ago (which he supports in post #108). Th book gives special significance to the destruction of Jerusalem (which we see in Post #150) - Jerusalem is basically the "Babylon has fallen".

 

[Abaxvahl]

I have been baffled at where the OP is taking this thread. But then I started reading the book the OP linked to on Post #108. He is basically making points from that book - which states that the Millennium is now. This is a quote straddling pages 518 & 519 from that book.

The Bible is clear: Through baptism, we have been resurrected to eternal life and rule with Christ now, in this age. The First Resurrection is taking place now. Jesus Christ is reigning now (Acts 2:29-36; Rev. 1:5). And this means, of necessity, that the Millennium is taking place now as well.
​

So based upon this book, most of that which is in the book of Revelation took place long ago (which he supports in post #108). Th book gives special significance to the destruction of Jerusalem (which we see in Post #150) - Jerusalem is basically the "Babylon has fallen".

That which you quoted sounds like a correct interpretation. Combined with that the Lord Jesus expects a manifestation of His Kingdom by subduing nations in the Great Commission text, which He lovingly expects His Church to participate in and manifest (an honor it is, like Psalm 149 says, to participate in that).

 

[Mr. M]

That which you quoted sounds like a correct interpretation. Combined with that the Lord Jesus expects a manifestation of His Kingdom by subduing nations in the Great Commission text, which He lovingly expects His Church to participate in and manifest (an honor it is, like Psalm 149 says, to participate in that).

What does Psalm 149 have to do with discipleship? This is judgment after Christ returns
to destroy all the armies of the nations that come against His kingdom.
Psalm 149:
5 Let the saints be joyful in glory;
Let them sing aloud on their beds.
6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
And a two-edged sword in their hand,
7 To execute vengeance on the nations,
And punishments on the peoples;
8 To bind their kings with chains,
And their nobles with fetters of iron;
9 To execute on them the written judgment—
This honor have all His saints.

 

[Mr. M]

I have been baffled at where the OP is taking this thread. But then I started reading the book the OP linked to on Post #108. He is basically making points from that book - which states that the Millennium is now. This is a quote straddling pages 518 & 519 from that book.

The Bible is clear: Through baptism, we have been resurrected to eternal life and rule with Christ now, in this age. The First Resurrection is taking place now. Jesus Christ is reigning now (Acts 2:29-36; Rev. 1:5). And this means, of necessity, that the Millennium is taking place now as well.
​

So based upon this book, most of that which is in the book of Revelation took place long ago (which he supports in post #108). Th book gives special significance to the destruction of Jerusalem (which we see in Post #150) - Jerusalem is basically the "Babylon has fallen".

So, according to this book, this has already occurred?
That's funny! (Or very dangerous, depending on POV)
Revelation 2:
25 But hold fast what you have till I come.
26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end,
to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
as I also have received from My Father.

 

[Hammster]

While my theology encompasses all of scripture, this thread isn’t about Revelation.

 

[John Mullally]

That which you quoted sounds like a correct interpretation. Combined with that the Lord Jesus expects a manifestation of His Kingdom by subduing nations in the Great Commission text, which He lovingly expects His Church to participate in and manifest (an honor it is, like Psalm 149 says, to participate in that).

The book I quoted from the OP (see Post #108) is from a Post-Millennialist. Since Post-Millennialist doctrine is not supported in the early church (because Wikipedia says its new), I would not allow it to flavor my view on the Great Commission. I prefer to stick to a more traditional, non-nuanced, understanding of the New Testament.

The Savoy Declaration of 1658 contains one of the earliest creedal statements of a postmillennial eschatology:​