The greatness of free will and it's connection to the quantum level

[dad]

That's nicely ambiguous.

What if it really did? (At least in the area of the battle)! After all, all we need to do is tweak time itself, or some such. Hey, piece of cake for God. And yes, If He did do that, He could have had the effect up higher than the people, so that they would still be in normal time Who knows? Who could question it?

 

[dad]

Joshua prayed and the Lord made it happen. The sun stood still for God, in obedience to His command, it didn't stand still for Joshua.

If Josh never prayed...probably no miracle. So Josh had something to do with it!

 

[dad]

Wait. For the sun to "stand still" it would mean the earth would need to stop rotating. Are you honestly suggesting that the earth stopped rotating for a few hours, and then accelerated back to its full speed? the forces involved in doing that would be immense.

No it wouldn't! All it might mean is that in that area, time was somehow stopped or affected, at least up in the sky above the men! Piece of cake.

 

[dad]

That particular miracle didn't have anything to do with quantum mechanics. Consider, for example, that the sun is under constant observation at all times by man and beast and, for that matter, whatever else is out there in the cosmos.

Well, how would light not involve the quantum level also? Is there not photons involved? Are photons not something that is in that area? There is more than that involved in the universe than just thing quantum! No? It All responds to God. Instantly. He speaks and it is so.

 

[dad]

I know. Of course, this thread isn't about quantum mechanics.

Yes, it is about that, but because we are looking at how the quantum level is possible flexible because it needs to bend to our will and God's, we can also look at other things that can bend.

 

[St_Worm2]

Yes, it is about that, but because we are looking at how the quantum level is possible flexible because it needs to bend to our will and God's, we can also look at other things that can bend.

Hi dad, sorry, I misunderstood your intention in the OP.

Nevertheless, the question remains, how can "our" will directly affect things at ANY level and, of course, where is the observable proof of such if it does?

Thanks!

--David

 

[St_Worm2]

If Josh never prayed...probably no miracle. So Josh had something to do with it!

Even though Josh did pray...no miracle could have ever happened by his hand. Miracles happen by the hand of God alone Brother, yes

That said, yes, the Bible tells us that God caused the miracle to happen in response to Joshua's prayer (Joshua 10:14).

 

[dad]

what about it? In quantum mechanics, an observer is anything that interacts with the quantum system in question, and an observation, or measurement, is that interaction.

That is debatable. If a worm observes something would that change it? Or if a man observes? Maybe you don't know!

The key words there are, 'observed reality'; the way you make measurements affects what you see.

I would think that infers observed by man.

For example, depending how your measurement equipment is configured, you might see a something that behaves like a particle, or something that behaves like a wave. The measuring apparatus is part of the system and affects how it behaves, which affects the results you see.

Man sets it up, and man observes. You can't take the experiments to mean much without man! Name one experiment that leaves man out?? Ha. Therefore man is in all experiments, so any observation means man observes. If, therefore the observation can affect reality, that means only man (or God, or angels) observing affects reality...unless and until you get some empirical data or experiment that suggests otherwise.

In quantum systems, the sort of information you can obtain about the system affects how it is observed to behave.

So it is flexible, and subject to probability, and can behave more than one way! All affected by the observer which is man! Name any other observer?

If you set up your equipment to detect which path a particle takes through an experiment, it will behave like a particle taking a particular path through the experiment;

Right, if a MAN sets it up, we will observe stuff. Now if we were right with God, I bet we would observe a lot more. Not only that but we could affect much more and determine reality a lot more. The quantum level then becomes a mere tool, that can be used to do what our free will wants. Free will would determine the 'probability'. The only reason it now seems strange and murky, and subject to 'probability' could be because right now, we are out of sync with God's creation, so do not now know it will turn out?

otherwise, it will behave like a probability amplitude wave, taking all possible paths, until it finally interacts (e.g. is detected) at some location, the probability of which is governed by the probability amplitude at that point.

In other words, maybe, if we do not pray, or are not right with the creator, the universe will go merrily on it's way. No surprise there! The exciting thing is that we can affect reality and the outcome, especially when we get out from under this present sin state.

 

[dad]

It makes sense that the free will of humans is tied up with the indeterminacy revealed by quantum mechanics. But it does not make sense to assert a human can influence the outcome of an external quantum event by the act of making an observation. First of all, it doesn't take a human observer to collapse the developing probability wave fronts. A mere flashlight can do that. Second, the act of forcing the collapse of the developing probability wave front does not influence the particular resulting "choice" among the alternate probabilities. That remains random.

Well, in the case of schroeder's cat, is it random whether the cat in the box is alive? Or is it determined by whether an act of man (observing the box) happens?!

 

[dad]

Even though Josh did pray...no miracle could have ever happened by his hand. Miracles happen by the hand of God alone Brother, yes

That said, yes, the Bible tells us that God caused the miracle to happen in response to Joshua's prayer (Joshua 10:14).

Yes, and it is a miracle Adam lived, so if Adam could have affected the weather, then it was set up that way. I doubt if the Adam could have affected nature, that it required a special miracle each time...hundreds of times a day.

So..how would I know whether Josh had a lot to do with it? Maybe prayer is more powerful than we think, and it can be a way to affect nature even now, because it involves the spiritual realm? Maybe God's set up even has some accommodation for us now? The two witnesses in Revelation call down fore as often as they will. That insinuates that God put it in THEIR power.

 

[dad]

Hi dad, sorry, I misunderstood your intention in the OP.

Nevertheless, the question remains, how can "our" will directly affect things at ANY level and, of course, where is the observable proof of such if it does?

Thanks!

--David

Our will, IF properly directed through prayer, maybe can change reality!? Of course in the end it is God doing it anyhow, because He created us and the world and universe and quantum level, and etc etc. But maybe He made some thing able to be affected by us, our will, and prayers?

 

[dad]

Even though Josh did pray...no miracle could have ever happened by his hand. Miracles happen by the hand of God alone Brother, yes

Not by his hand alone, no. Bu how do we know how much God has ordained that we, and our will and prayers have to do with things?

 

[St_Worm2]

Our will, IF properly directed through prayer, maybe can change reality!? Of course in the end it is God doing it anyhow, because He created us and the world and universe and quantum level, and etc etc. But maybe He made some thing able to be affected by us, our will, and prayers?

Observable examples and Scriptural references

Thanks!

--David

 

[dad]

Observable examples and Scriptural references

Thanks!

--David

We were not there to observe Adam changing weather and etc. Billions of believers have seen prayers answered, though, so we observe it. Elijah called down fore from heaven. So it came when HE called for it. We can't say he had nothing to do with it. Nor can we say God was not involved. It is a symbiotic relationship! If God sets up gravity for us, and we fall down, we had something to do with that. It was not JUST God kicking us down. Our choices can affect reality. Maybe some or even a lot of that is how God set it up.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

What if it really did? (At least in the area of the battle)! After all, all we need to do is tweak time itself, or some such. Hey, piece of cake for God. And yes, If He did do that, He could have had the effect up higher than the people, so that they would still be in normal time Who knows? Who could question it?

What I meant by 'nicely ambiguous' was that "The sun stood still for Joshua" could be read either as the sun acceded to Joshua's request to stand still, or that Joshua thought that the sun stood still...

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Well, in the case of schroeder's cat, is it random whether the cat in the box is alive? Or is it determined by whether an act of man (observing the box) happens?!

It is random whether the cat is alive or not, but by the time the box is opened the determination has already been made. For one thing, the cat counts as an observer. For another thing, the detector of the quantum event, for all that it is merely a thing as simple as a Geiger counter, counts as an observer. These are enough to collapse the developing probability wave. So the randomness is brought forth to a reality, and the cat has either lived or died.

 

[St_Worm2]

We were not there to observe Adam changing weather and etc.

Adam was a "weather-god" Are there Biblical reference(s) that describe His ability to control the weather?

Billions of believers have seen prayers answered, though, so we observe it.

True, we pray, but He's the one who answers our prayers and causes change (if He so decides). Our prayers, our "wills", are not the proximate cause of physical changes to our realm, God is. There is no "symbiotic" relationship between us in this way, it's ALL about Him.

Elijah called down fire from heaven. So it came when HE called for it. We can't say he had nothing to do with it. Nor can we say God was not involved. It is a symbiotic relationship!

That God seems to respond to our prayers does not mean that we can control Him, or the elements, simply because we "will it" so. God ALONE is responsible for such things, just like He alone is responsible for how and when He chooses to answer our prayers. Our thoughts cannot cause such changes to occur.

If God sets up gravity for us, and we fall down, we had something to do with that. It was not JUST God kicking us down. Our choices can affect reality.

Gravity is a reality of living in (and on ) this world. How has that reality been affected or changed if we fall down (by choice or by happenstance) Rather, falling down can be rightly understood as a natural consequence of living in the reality that we do, yes?

Thanks!

--David

 

[dad]

What I meant by 'nicely ambiguous' was that "The sun stood still for Joshua" could be read either as the sun acceded to Joshua's request to stand still, or that Joshua thought that the sun stood still...

The thing is that the bible says it did, and that was a big issue and the reason why a big battle was won.

 

[dad]

It is random whether the cat is alive or not, but by the time the box is opened the determination has already been made.

But man opens all boxes! - or not.

For one thing, the cat counts as an observer.

No, because there IS no cat in the box in reality, the quantum level does not include cats! The only real observers are man. The articles I cited claim that reality is affected by the observer (has to be man). So if WE affect the reality of what the wave ends up doing, then it seems we have influence and choice that influences things.

For another thing, the detector of the quantum event, for all that it is merely a thing as simple as a Geiger counter, counts as an observer.

Man made the tool for observation and man is the observer whether man uses a telescope, microscope, geiger counter, or anything else.

These are enough to collapse the developing probability wave. So the randomness is brought forth to a reality, and the cat has either lived or died.

There is no real cat in the box. Never was. Never will be probably. Photons and other little things are governed by the quantum laws, but not cats! Got any proof any animal would be??

 

[dad]

Adam was a "weather-god" Are there Biblical reference(s) that describe His ability to control the weather?

I said many feel that Adam had a control over nature. That is not some absolute known fact. However, as mentioned, the second Adam, Jesus demonstrated that control over nature.

True, we pray, but He's the one who answers our prayers and causes change (if He so decides).

How would you know how much He uses man? You are guessing.

Our prayers, our "wills", are not the proximate cause of physical changes to our realm, God is. There is no "symbiotic" relationship between us in this way, it's ALL about Him.

No more than God does our gardening for us! He set it all up for us, and it grows and the rain falls, and etc etc because He made it that way. However, WE have a part too. We don't know how much.

That God seems to respond to our prayers does not mean that we can control Him, or the elements, simply because we "will it" so.

Elijah prayed to stop rain and to make it rain, and those prayers resulted in nature responding. The bible says that the witnesses in the end have the power from God to do similar things. That does not have to mean God leaves us out of it all. We have some part. You canot rle out that the universe is set up to be able to respond to us when it is His will! You can't say we are useless, and not meaningful, and not needed at all, and that we have nothing to do with affecting reality.

God ALONE is responsible for such things,

No He ain't! We are too! He uses us. He used man to write the bible! He used men to be apostles, and help with His salvation plan.

just like He alone is responsible for how and when He chooses to answer our prayers.

Well, of course that is true, but it doesn't mean we may not have a real part in it!

Our thoughts cannot cause such changes to occur.

Our prayers can. Prayer changes things.

Gravity is a reality of living in (and on ) this world.

So is prayer. So are words. etc.

How has that reality been affected or changed if we fall down (by choice or by happenstance)

Well, if you fall hard enough your reality will change!

Rather, falling down can be rightly understood as a natural consequence of living in the reality that we do, yes?

So can prayer!