The greatness of free will and it's connection to the quantum level

[dad]

The created universe seems to have been set up to be able to respond to choices man makes.

Quantum entangled particles, if observed behave a certain way. Rather than this reflecting some weirdness that is changed by observation, it may be reflecting the greatness of free will of man! That is, that the universe is set up to respond to us, and our choices. Naturally, the elements and particles would need to be flexible so that they can do what we chose! (Or God chooses, of course)

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi dad, please elaborate, how can our choices directly affect the universe, to the quantum level or otherwise? Are there observable examples of this? Are there any that are undeniable?

Finally, do you believe that God is "flexible" and chooses to bend His will to regularly accommodate ours?

Thanks!

--David

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The created universe seems to have been set up to be able to respond to choices man makes.

Quantum entangled particles, if observed behave a certain way. Rather than this reflecting some weirdness that is changed by observation, it may be reflecting the greatness of free will of man! That is, that the universe is set up to respond to us, and our choices. Naturally, the elements and particles would need to be flexible so that they can do what we chose! (Or God chooses, of course)

Nope; empirical evidence shows that the results of observation of a QM system are probabilistic - and the probabilities of each possible result are exactly predicted by the wave function of the system.

 

[dad]

Hi dad, please elaborate, how can our choices directly affect the universe, to the quantum level or otherwise? Are there observable examples of this? Are there any that are undeniable?

I think that Adam would have had the connection to the universe to where his wishes could affect nature, and some even feel, I have read, the sun and etc! Who knows? In the present time, though, the ability of free will to affect much of the universe seems quite limited.

Looking at one article for example we see this..

"
In quantum physics, being in two different states at the same time is known as a superposition state, and it’s the entire basis of quantum computing, which is set to revolutionise how we process data in the future.

Of course, by opening the box, we can’t change the reality of what’s actually already happened in there - what’s dead is dead, and what’s alive and really [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed that you put it in a box with live explosives is alive and really [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed that you put it in a box with live explosives.

The point is that, in reality, there’s only one real option, but until we observe that reality, the two options stand. "

http://www.sciencealert.com/schrodi...d-in-two-boxes-at-once-irl-experiment-reveals

Here they claim that by the mere fact of observing something, basically affects reality. In other words, that the act of man looking at something affects what is there or not.

That seems to indicate a flexibility in what can become reality! A flexibility that is affected by the observation of man!

Finally, do you believe that God is "flexible" and chooses to bend His will to regularly accommodate ours?

Thanks!

--David

I think the trick would be mostly for us to get our will to agree with Him! Adam was right there at that place. Adam knew God wanted him to affect the garden, and keep it, and have a woman...etc. It could be that nature obeyed him. We do see that nature sure obeyed what the bible calls, the second Adam (Jesus)! So obviously God's will determines reality in the universe!

I do think that God does stuff for believers today all the time. I don't think any of that stuff would be against His will, or a real bending too far of it though. We need to learn to align ourselves with His will to really be heard, I would think.

 

[dad]

Nope; empirical evidence shows that the results of observation of a QM system are probabilistic - and the probabilities of each possible result are exactly predicted by the wave function of the system.

Oh? So what about observation?


"One of the most bizarre premises of quantum theory, which has long fascinated philosophers and physicists alike, states that by the very act of watching, the observer affects the observed reality."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980227055013.htm

 

[St_Worm2]

...obviously God's will determines reality in the universe! I do think that God does stuff for believers today all the time.

Both of those statements are the undoubted truth, but please give us some observable and undeniable examples of the universe responding to the choices 'we' make?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[dad]

Both of those statements are the undoubted truth, but please give us some observable and undeniable examples of the universe responding to the choices 'we' make?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

The sun stood still for Joshua.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

The created universe seems to have been set up to be able to respond to choices man makes.

Quantum entangled particles, if observed behave a certain way. Rather than this reflecting some weirdness that is changed by observation, it may be reflecting the greatness of free will of man! That is, that the universe is set up to respond to us, and our choices. Naturally, the elements and particles would need to be flexible so that they can do what we chose! (Or God chooses, of course)

It makes sense that the free will of humans is tied up with the indeterminacy revealed by quantum mechanics. But it does not make sense to assert a human can influence the outcome of an external quantum event by the act of making an observation. First of all, it doesn't take a human observer to collapse the developing probability wave fronts. A mere flashlight can do that. Second, the act of forcing the collapse of the developing probability wave front does not influence the particular resulting "choice" among the alternate probabilities. That remains random.

 

[St_Worm2]

The sun stood still for Joshua.

Joshua prayed and the Lord made it happen. The sun stood still for God, in obedience to His command, it didn't stand still for Joshua.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Joshua prayed and the Lord made it happen. The sun stood still for God, in obedience to His command, it didn't stand still for Joshua.

That particular miracle didn't have anything to do with quantum mechanics. Consider, for example, that the sun is under constant observation at all times by man and beast and, for that matter, whatever else is out there in the cosmos.

 

[St_Worm2]

That particular miracle didn't have anything to do with quantum mechanics. Consider, for example, that the sun is under constant observation at all times by man and beast and, for that matter, whatever else is out there in the cosmos.

I know. Of course, this thread isn't about quantum mechanics. My point was that the miracle of the sun standing still was something that God caused, not Joshua.

 

[MasonP]

My point was that the miracle of the sun standing still was something that God caused, not Joshua.

I am not going to question your intellect for one second by thinking that you actually believe that.

 

[AV1611VET]

I am not going to question your intellect for one second by thinking that you actually believe that.

Joshua 10:14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

Translation: God did it.

 

[doubtingmerle]

The sun stood still for Joshua.

Wait. For the sun to "stand still" it would mean the earth would need to stop rotating. Are you honestly suggesting that the earth stopped rotating for a few hours, and then accelerated back to its full speed? the forces involved in doing that would be immense.

 

[AV1611VET]

the forces involved in doing that would be immense.

It would be like trying to lift a footstool, wouldn't it!?

Isaiah 66:1a Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:

 

[doubtingmerle]

It would be like trying to lift a footstool, wouldn't it!?

Isaiah 66:1a Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:

Uh, people using quantum effects to stop the earth? I would say that is a little different from lifting a footstool.

But God doing it? Ok, but if the purpose is to help Joshua see, why not just put a big spotlight in the sky? And if an event like this happened, why did nobody notice and write it down?

 

[AV1611VET]

But God doing it?

Yes, indeedy-doodey!

Ok, but if the purpose is to help Joshua see, why not just put a big spotlight in the sky?

Something wrong with God answering Joshua's prayer as he prayed it?

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

And if an event like this happened, why did nobody notice and write it down?

You mean like here?

Joshua 10:13b Is not this written in the book of Jasher?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Oh? So what about observation?

what about it? In quantum mechanics, an observer is anything that interacts with the quantum system in question, and an observation, or measurement, is that interaction.

"One of the most bizarre premises of quantum theory, which has long fascinated philosophers and physicists alike, states that by the very act of watching, the observer affects the observed reality."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980227055013.htm

The key words there are, 'observed reality'; the way you make measurements affects what you see. For example, depending how your measurement equipment is configured, you might see a something that behaves like a particle, or something that behaves like a wave. The measuring apparatus is part of the system and affects how it behaves, which affects the results you see.

In quantum systems, the sort of information you can obtain about the system affects how it is observed to behave. If you set up your equipment to detect which path a particle takes through an experiment, it will behave like a particle taking a particular path through the experiment; otherwise, it will behave like a probability amplitude wave, taking all possible paths, until it finally interacts (e.g. is detected) at some location, the probability of which is governed by the probabililty amplitude at that point.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The sun stood still for Joshua.

That's nicely ambiguous.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Uh, people using quantum effects to stop the earth? I would say that is a little different from lifting a footstool.

But God doing it? Ok, but if the purpose is to help Joshua see, why not just put a big spotlight in the sky? And if an event like this happened, why did nobody notice and write it down?

Well, for all we know, that's what God did. We weren't there, we don't know the details of what God actually did to cause the "long day". Its one of those things we'll have to wait to learn in heaven.