The great tribulation of the 6th seal

[keras]

I don't think there is much in the way of disputes about the LoF being for the devil and his messengers

The odd part is that part of Revelation is the one point most often overlooked in the conversations

Funny how that works

People are too preoccupied with their fanciful ideas about what they want God to do for them.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Exactly where is heaven, in your belief?
Is your God not omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient? Have you even heard those words before?

This is not my belief. These are facts from the Bible.

2 Cor 12:2-4 (NIV): I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

What does Jesus say about paradise? Luke 23:43 (NIV): Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

We therefore know that paradise is an actual place where deceased believers go after dying.

Rev 1:12-16 (ESV): Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

Heaven is an actual place with where spaces, rooms and furniture exists ("seven golden lampstands") and where folks where robes. Heaven is where millions of angels exist, elders have their space around God's throne, and four living creatures are on duty around the throne 24/7.

True or false? The four living creatures never leave Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Exactly where is heaven, in your belief?
Is your God not omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient? Have you even heard those words before?

I see you find my reply funny. You Preterists ignore FACTS in the Bible to suit your looney beliefs. The omnipotence and omnipresence of God are about God, not the physical location of Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Exactly where is heaven, in your belief?
Is your God not omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient? Have you even heard those words before?

Remember this, Karas: you laughed at verifiable facts in the Bible.

 

[keras]

I see you find my reply funny. You Preterists ignore FACTS in the Bible to suit your looney beliefs. The omnipotence and omnipresence of God are about God, not the physical location of Heaven.

Get this fact: where God is, there is heaven.

I laugh at your failed attempts to prove the rapture.
No one supports your irrational beliefs and twisted interpretations.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

People are too preoccupied with their fanciful ideas about what they want God to do for them.

Well, IF we were really capable of thinking things through, we'd understand that "we" all have sin, Romans 3:9 and sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

Seems pretty obvious to me where any said forthcoming destruction will take place:

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

The "Great Trib" is for DEVILS and their tribulation will transpire in all of us, when the tables are finally turned on "THEM."

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Get this fact: where God is, there is heaven.

I laugh at your failed attempts to prove the rapture.
No one supports your irrational beliefs and twisted interpretations.

Whether you agree with Rev 4:1 being unfulfilled is your choice. Rev 4:1-2 prove that John was seeing and hearing the supernatural scene for Rev 4, that one angel was showing to him (Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8).

The model for John’s supernatural instruction is detailed in Rev 1:12-16. John, while on Patmos, was shown every detail he needed to write all of Rev. Rev 1:13-16 prove John could see into Heaven, from Patmos. He never needed to go to Heaven while writing Rev, and he never did. Rev 4:1 remains unfulfilled.

Jesus said in Rev 3:10 (ESV): … I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

“You” are the Church (believers) and “those who dwell on the earth” are unbelievers (Rev 6:10 and Rev 11:10). We believers will be raptured straight to Heaven by the combined fulfillment of 1 Th 1:10, John 14:3, 1 Th 4:16-17, 1 Cor 15:52 and Rev 4:1.

The church, at the time of Jesus saying His prophetic words in Rev 3:10, was going through LOCAL trials and tribulation. In Rev 3:10, Jesus was specifically referring to “the trial that is coming on the WHOLE world.” That had nothing to do with the current LOCAL trials and tribulation experienced daily by that one church. Jesus was referring to the 21 judgments of God’s wrath in Rev 6 - 16, that will come upon the WHOLE world.

 

[keras]

We believers will be raptured straight to Heaven by the combined fulfillment of 1 Th 1:10, John 14:3, 1 Th 4:16-17, 1 Cor 15:52 and Rev 4:1

This is untrue, NONE of those verses say anyone will be raptured to heaven.
Read Jeremiah 14:14-16 and mend your ways!

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is untrue, NONE of those verses say anyone will be raptured to heaven.
Read Jeremiah 14:14-16 and mend your ways!

Rev 4:1 is unfulfilled. We will be raptured directly to Heaven, prior to the “hour of trial.”

 

[keras]

Rev 4:1 is unfulfilled. We will be raptured directly to Heaven, prior to the “hour of trial.”

they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart. Jer 14:14-16

They will stop their ears to the truth and believe in fables. 2 Tim 4:4

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is untrue, NONE of those verses say anyone will be raptured to heaven.
Read Jeremiah 14:14-16 and mend your ways!

they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart. Jer 14:14-16

They will stop their ears to the truth and believe in fables. 2 Tim 4:4

You prove nothing about Rev 4:1 already being fulfilled. You then made a false claim about me.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart. Jer 14:14-16

They will stop their ears to the truth and believe in fables. 2 Tim 4:4

It is abundantly provable by the wording of Rev 4:1-2, that John was watching and hearing the supernatural scene for Rev 4, as he wrote Rev 4.

Rev 1:9-16 prove that John was on the island of Patmos and that he could see fine details of Heaven in the supernatural scene before him.

John was not raptured to Heaven in Rev 4:1 because it wasn’t necessary. He could see and hear all he needed to, by way of the supernatural scene for Rev 4. These supernatural scenes were shown to John by one angel (Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8). That one angel repeated that same assistance to John throughout John’s writing of Rev, and that is richly evidenced by John’s writing style.

Rev 4:1 remains unfulfilled as it will be the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, in simultaneous fulfillment of Rev 3:10, 1 Th 4:16-17, 1 Cor 15:52, John 14:3 and 1 Th 1:10.

 

[keras]

It is abundantly provable by the wording of Rev 4:1-2, that John was watching and hearing the supernatural scene for Rev 4, as he wrote Rev 4.

Rev 1:9-16 prove that John was on the island of Patmos and that he could see fine details of Heaven in the supernatural scene before him.

John was not raptured to Heaven in Rev 4:1 because it wasn’t necessary. He could see and hear all he needed to, by way of the supernatural scene for Rev 4. These supernatural scenes were shown to John by one angel (Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8). That one angel repeated that same assistance to John throughout John’s writing of Rev, and that is richly evidenced by John’s writing style.

Rev 4:1 remains unfulfilled as it will be the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, in simultaneous fulfillment of Rev 3:10, 1 Th 4:16-17, 1 Cor 15:52, John 14:3 and 1 Th 1:10.

I need to say nothing, as your posts amply demonstrate your weird and fanciful beliefs.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I need to say nothing, as your posts amply demonstrate your weird and fanciful beliefs.

You only say critical nonsense because you CAN’T prove me wrong. Therefore, you’ve lost the debate.

The proof of a Bible verse that will rapture the Church to Heaven is Rev 4:1. I have proven in the past that John was never raptured to Heaven by Rev 4:1 (verses 1 and 2 prove he was watching and hearing the supernatural scenes about Rev 4). He saw and heard the supernatural scenes for Rev 4, and he wrote about those scenes just as he did for all of Rev.

Your and Ed’s focus has been on John being raptured to Heaven, then traveling and traveling to see and hear what he needed to write Rev.

Answer this: What was the role of the one angel who was sent to John while he was on Patmos? Per Rev 22:8, that one angel showed John all he needed to write Rev. You and Ed are dismissive of those facts.

The way John was prepared to write Rev was to show him supernatural scenes that provided everything he needed to write Rev. John obviously wrote each chapter of Rev, one at a time, based on the related supernatural scenes that the one angel showed to him.

There was never any rapture to Heaven by John because it was never necessary. The one angel sent to John took care of everything John would see and hear in the supernatural scenes. You can’t prove me wrong.