The Grave Danger of the Catholic-Based "Purgatory" Theory!

Needing_Grace said:

Good question. I didn't invent the notion, someone angry at the Catholic Church did.

My understanding of purgatory, which is the Church's understanding as far as I know, is that the purpose of purgatory is to apply the objective fact of Christ's righteousness being applied to the redeemed in the subjective sense from the perspective of the redeemed. You might call it glorification. We just say the process isn't instant and it hurts. That's all.

It's not about God getting some sadistic thrill from roasting His children (neither is Hell), it's our God straightening our collars and making sure we, personally, are ready such before we get to the main event.

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Albion said:

Now now. It's not non-Catholics who have postulated the necessity of a place or state of being in the afterlife where those who have been redeemed must be tortured for forgiven sins! That's Purgatory, and it's a doctrine held by only one church out of all the thousands of branches of Christ's church.

All you've done there is restate what was already said. My question was this--WHY would you think that a person who's already been saved by the blood of Christ needs to be tortured for awhile?

Right. I wouldn't think that it is.

Huh? And this requires him to torture for awhile the people he's already redeemed. Think about it. What sense does that make? And , by the way, what is it about being tortured that makes us ready for ultimate love and harmony?

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steve_bakr said:

And the reason for this, I think, is because commiting sin after Baptism carries a temporal consequence.

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For the redeemed, that consequence is not hell, but purgatory. A comparison might be the consequences of commiting a traffic violation like speeding. You can be sorry for it and vow not to do it again, but you still must pay the fine.

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Albion said:

Why would we think that?

But the whole point about the Cross is that someone else paid it for you!

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Needing_Grace said:

I think I see where your problem is.

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You appear think that being a dunghill covered with snow is enough to get you into heaven.

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God doesn't actually *do* anything, He just bangs the gavel and says, "Innocent for the sale of Christ!"

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Needing_Grace said:

I think I see where your problem is. You appear think that being a dunghill covered with snow is enough to get you into heaven. God doesn't actually *do* anything, He just bangs the gavel and says, "Innocent for the sale of Christ!". He does declare us innocent, no one denies it.

We just think that God also works on and with us to actually *make* us holy. There's the objective: Christ died to redeem sinners. There's the subjective: Christ's righteousness is applied to me through the process of salvation, first when I received the grace of justification, which I am to live in. It is, after all, my identity. I am a child of the King. Noblesse oblige. When I mess up, which I do frequently, it damages that integrity and weakens my will. It's a weakness that remains from our first father, Adam. That weakness remains with us in this life.

All of us have sins that we actually enjoy. Do you think you can tolerate eternity with that weakness forever knowing you could never fulfill those desires? That would be a form of hell itself...but suppose God Himself works on and with us to eliminate those weaknesses, even after we leave this mortal coil, to make us everything He wants for us?

Once again, Christ consummated everything necessary for redemption. That's an objective theological fact. Since we're all "fixer-uppers," God's got a lot of work to do on each of us.

(sorry about the confusing post, doing this at lunch on my iPhone...)

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Albion said:

Not being a believer in the existence of Purgatory, I don't really think I have a problem.

Good grief. When we are covered by the blood of Jesus, it works.

We are no longer a dunheap in God's eyes. We are redeemed from that grime! All this is extremely common and familiar language from the Bible.

That's exactly what I have been explaining. Why on Earth would you think that upon arriving in the afterlife, you will be told by God "You have been saved by the blood of Christ, but I think I'll put you into the equivalent of Hell for awhile "just because it'll be good for you."

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Albion said:

Not being a believer in the existence of Purgatory, I don't really think I have a problem.

Good grief. When we are covered by the blood of Jesus, it works.

We are no longer a dunheap in God's eyes. We are redeemed from that grime! All this is extremely common and familiar language from the Bible.

That's exactly what I have been explaining. Why on Earth would you think that upon arriving in the afterlife, you will be told by God "You have been saved by the blood of Christ, but I think I'll put you into the equivalent of Hell for awhile "just because it'll be good for you."

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steve_bakr said:

I just reread the sections on Purgatory in the CCC, which says that the conditions of Purgatory are not the same as hell.

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Rhamiel said:

so we still have a sinful nature while on earth, we have temptations and we make mistakes
in heaven, we will not be like that
so up untill the moment we die we still have temptations and mistakes
but in heaven we will not be like that, remember no unclean thing can enter heaven
so
some time before heaven but after death, Jesus takes away all of those things that keeps our will from being totaly in line with His will, Catholics call that period "Purgatory"

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Needing_Grace said:

Needing_Grace said:

I think I see where your problem is. You appear think that being a dunghill covered with snow is enough to get you into heaven. God doesn't actually *do* anything, He just bangs the gavel and says, "Innocent for the sale of Christ!". He does declare us innocent, no one denies it.

We just think that God also works on and with us to actually *make* us holy. There's the objective: Christ died to redeem sinners. There's the subjective: Christ's righteousness is applied to me through the process of salvation, first when I received the grace of justification, which I am to live in. It is, after all, my identity. I am a child of the King. Noblesse oblige. When I mess up, which I do frequently, it damages that integrity and weakens my will. It's a weakness that remains from our first father, Adam. That weakness remains with us in this life.

All of us have sins that we actually enjoy. Do you think you can tolerate eternity with that weakness forever knowing you could never fulfill those desires? That would be a form of hell itself...but suppose God Himself works on and with us to eliminate those weaknesses, even after we leave this mortal coil, to make us everything He wants for us?

Once again, Christ consummated everything necessary for redemption. That's an objective theological fact. Since we're all "fixer-uppers," God's got a lot of work to do on each of us.

(sorry about the confusing post, doing this at lunch on my iPhone...)

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" and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by[ Christ, havingbeen buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."

Colassians 2:10-15

To believe anything else, is from the enemy.

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loveabounds said:

What do you think happens when one accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior??

Curious.

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Needing_Grace said:

I'd love to respond but you need to use the quote feature properly so I can respond.

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Needing_Grace said:

What does that even mean? That whole sentence is a man-made tradition.

When I was baptized, all of my sins, original and actual, were washed away. Everything that offends God was removed and I was reborn a new man, well, young man, in Christ As a result, I was adopted into the family of God, made an heir to the promise of eternal life, was given a share in the divine life of the Most Holy Trinity.

At the same time, we retain our "carnal" natures (we call it For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ) which is how we can be tempted to sin.

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Needing_Grace said:

What does that even mean? That whole sentence is a man-made tradition.

When I was baptized, all of my sins, original and actual, were washed away. Everything that offends God was removed and I was reborn a new man, well, young man, in Christ As a result, I was adopted into the family of God, made an heir to the promise of eternal life, was given a share in the divine life of the Most Holy Trinity.

At the same time, we retain our "carnal" natures (we call it concupiscence) which is how we can be tempted to sin.

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Needing_Grace said:

Why do you insist on the notion that purgatory means that God will torture us for the sake of some sick sadistic pleasure?

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God removing the old Adam will hurt.

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Albion said:

I never said anything of the sort. Purgatory, by definition, is a place of torment, punishment, often called by the Catholic Church the same as hell only not forever. That's what Purgatory is. I've never said that I think God is a sadist, however, I'd still like to know what anyone who believes in Purgatory thinks is served by subjecting people--who are already forgiven of their sins--to a long spell in a place of torment. THAT makes no sense to me.

Why and who says so? It's a matter of our standing with God, not a scab.

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steve_bakr said:

"The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned." (CCC, 1031)

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Albion said:

Sure. The punishment of the damned is forever. Purgatory is only torment until the end of Earthly time. Whoopee.

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