The Grave Danger of the Catholic-Based "Purgatory" Theory!

[bbbbbbb]

Aside from the fact that Catholics do works in the belief that they earn God's favor while Protestants do them because of the desire to live as God would want us to do, the "works" that are prayers after confession are meant to be a token of one's contrition, that's all.

Unfortunately, because they are similar to other religious acts that are believed by these folks to be meritorious, they are often mistaken as compensation for sin. The church doesn't teach that, however.

That still leaves us with the problem of punishment for sins which purportedly have been forgiven. Punishment may be viewed through the lens of payment and seen in that light, as some Catholics seem to do. So, the question concerning Purgatory is why God requires punishment/payment for sins, if, indeed Jesus Christ has already suffered the punishment/payment for them.

BTW, it is still unclear if the Catholic Church believes that Jesus Christ died only for those sins committed up to that particular point in time. Unfortunately, I did not receive an answer to my question from the poster to whom I posed it. Perhaps another Catholic might be willing to answer it for me.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

So, the question concerning Purgatory is why God requires punishment/payment for sins, if, indeed Jesus Christ has already suffered the punishment/payment for them.

Answer:

<Quoted from the Catholic Encyclopedia>

God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him "to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow" until he returned unto dust.

God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the "land of promise" (Numbers 20:12)

The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God's enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14)

In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3)

God requires satisfaction. Even after Christ's atonement, *believe it or not*, God is still God

 

[Albion]

That still leaves us with the problem of punishment for sins which purportedly have been forgiven.

Yes, and that's much more important. My last comment was just a sidebar.

Punishment may be viewed through the lens of payment and seen in that light, as some Catholics seem to do. So, the question concerning Purgatory is why God requires punishment/payment for sins, if, indeed Jesus Christ has already suffered the punishment/payment for them.

Right.

 

[steve_bakr]

That still leaves us with the problem of punishment for sins which purportedly have been forgiven. Punishment may be viewed through the lens of payment and seen in that light, as some Catholics seem to do. So, the question concerning Purgatory is why God requires punishment/payment for sins, if, indeed Jesus Christ has already suffered the punishment/payment for them.

BTW, it is still unclear if the Catholic Church believes that Jesus Christ died only for those sins committed up to that particular point in time. Unfortunately, I did not receive an answer to my question from the poster to whom I posed it. Perhaps another Catholic might be willing to answer it for me.

Regarding Purgatory, I like Rahner's suggestion as I have explained earlier. His view is unconventional, but none of his published writings have been declared unorthodox by Rome as far as I am aware. I still maintain that Purgatory is a mystery.

Since you already seem to know the answer to the question you're asking, allow me to ask you the following: If you commit a serious sin, are you required to repent? Also, do we still need to ask God to forgive our tresspasses?

I think the Catholic view regarding your question is that salvation does not dispense us from personal responsibility.

 

[Albion]

I think the Catholic view regarding your question is that salvation does not dispense us from personal responsibility.

What's that mean, Steve? Or perhaps I should ask how it answers "the question?"

 

[steve_bakr]

What's that mean, Steve? Or perhaps I should ask how it answers "the question?"

What that means is that the Christian life is a life of grace and personal responsibility. I don't think that an answer that Christ died for all sins for all time is inconsistent with the Catholic view, but we need to understand personal responsibility.

If a sin is committed, forgiveness is already there. But we need to accept it by repenting and asking for it. I think this is the biblical view, as 1st John says, if you sin, confess it and God will forgive you. Plus, if we say the Lord's Prayer, we continue to ask God to forgive our daily sins. If I am not mistaken, even the Anglican Church has a form of general confession and absolution.

 

[Albion]

If a sin is committed, forgiveness is already there. But we need to accept it by repenting and asking for it. I think this is the biblical view, as 1st John says, if you sin, confess it and God will forgive you.

I agree. The only issue that remains may be whether it is necessary to make a specific act of contrition in some way and ask forgiveness for particular sins that you itemize. I'd say "no" to that. What do you think?

f I am not mistaken, even the Anglican Church has a form of general confession and absolution.

"even" the Anglicans, huh?

 

[steve_bakr]

I agree. The only issue that remains may be whether it is necessary to make a specific act of contrition in some way and ask forgiveness for particular sins that you itemize. I'd say "no" to that. What do you think?

"even" the Anglicans, huh?

Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. I should have said that the Anglican Church is close to the view I was presenting.

I think that serious sins--like adultery--need to be dealt with individually. And I would advise a Protestant to confess it to a trusted Christian friend or minister.

 

[Albion]

Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. I should have said that the Anglican Church is close to the view I was presenting.

I know. The liturgy actually includes a very beautiful General Confession and Absolution.

I think that serious sins--like adultery--need to be dealt with individually. And I would advise a Protestant to confess it to a trusted Christian friend or minister.

I'd agree that a very serious sin can hardly be other than on your mind all the time, so I'm with you on that part. But as for the confession, I'm somewhat surprised at your words. Confession to God in prayer is the most appropriate course of action, especially since speaking to a minister is counseling, and "confessing" to a friend--who is not the one sinned against--is not mucb different. I'd say to speak to God about it always.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

It's funny how I post something three times almost in a row, and the only thing Protestants can do is flat out ignore it and affirm the same thing over and over.

I have met your challenge that there is Scriptural evidence, have deduced reasonably why Purgatory should exist:

It is your turn. Defend your position, or concede that I am right. Affirming something that has been matched is just a waste of thread space.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's funny how I post something three times almost in a row, and the only thing Protestants can do is flat out ignore it and affirm the same thing over and over.

I have met your challenge that there is Scriptural evidence, have deduced reasonably why Purgatory should exist:

It is your turn. Defend your position, or concede that I am right. Affirming something that has been matched is just a waste of thread space.

I assume you are addressing that to me. I am not ignoring you at all, but was gone until just now. I see that there has been quite a lot of activity here since I left.

In your previous post you wrote:

Answer:

Originally Posted by SilenceInMotion

<Quoted from the Catholic Encyclopedia>

God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him "to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow" until he returned unto dust.

God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the "land of promise" (Numbers 20:12)

The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God's enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14)

In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3)
​

God requires satisfaction. Even after Christ's atonement, *believe it or not*, God is still God

I agree that your God is still your God and that your God is not fully satisfied with the atonement made by His Son, Jesus Christ, and that He requires satisfaction for sins from His people, even to the point where He will commit them to an eternity in hellfire if their sins are mortal in nature.

I also understand the scriptures you have posted. Would you like me to respond to each one as I did previously? I am reluctant to do so because you did not respond to my comments then.

 

[Metal Minister]

It's funny how I post something three times almost in a row, and the only thing Protestants can do is flat out ignore it and affirm the same thing over and over.

I have met your challenge that there is Scriptural evidence, have deduced reasonably why Purgatory should exist:

It is your turn. Defend your position, or concede that I am right. Affirming something that has been matched is just a waste of thread space.

I'm sorry, I must've missed what challenge that was and your answers. Could I bother you post them again?

 

[steve_bakr]

I know. The liturgy actually includes a very beautiful General Confession and Absolution.

I'd agree that a very serious sin can hardly be other than on your mind all the time, so I'm with you on that part. But as for the confession, I'm somewhat surprised at your words. Confession to God in prayer is the most appropriate course of action, especially since speaking to a minister is counseling, and "confessing" to a friend--who is not the one sinned against--is not mucb different. I'd say to speak to God about it always.

You are right, I took confession to God as an assumption. But I should have said so.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

I'm sorry, I must've missed what challenge that was and your answers. Could I bother you post them again?

<Quoted from the Catholic Encyclopedia>

God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him "to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow" until he returned unto dust.

God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the "land of promise" (Numbers 20:12)

The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God's enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14)

In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3)

The point to be made here is that God still requires satisfaction after forgiveness. Forgiveness is not a freebee of your sins. All forgiveness does is keep you from the wrath of God and being damned.

 

[Tangible]

The point to be made here is that God still requires satisfaction after forgiveness. Forgiveness is not a freebee of your sins. All forgiveness does is keep you from the wrath of God and being damned.

I think this would be very difficult to prove from scripture. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins. Complete satisfaction.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is that he has not only won forgiveness, but paid the legal penalty for our sins. And not just our past sins, but our future sins as well.

Does that mean that we are free to sin? By no means. We are dead to sin and alive in Christ. We should walk as he walked.

And when we sin, and we will sin, God grants us repentance, confession and absolution. In Christ God has forgiven, forgives, and will forgive all our sins.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

I think this would be very difficult to prove from scripture. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins. Complete satisfaction.

I just showed Scripture
Where's your Scripture that states 'complete satisfaction'? In fact, how does one differentiate OSAS and universalism? Ah yes, getting dunked in water. The Logos of the universe, the grand omnipotent being of all that exists, sends people to Hell for not getting dunked in water_
What a much better theology over Purgatory
There is virtually no competency on the Protestant side on this subject. How does one even begin to deny Purgatory when you don't have anything except a claim which collapses on itself?

 

[Metal Minister]

I just showed Scripture
Where's your Scripture that states 'complete satisfaction'? In fact, how does one differentiate OSAS and universalism? Ah yes, getting dunked in water. The Logos of the universe, the grand omnipotent being of all that exists, sends people to Hell for not getting dunked in water_
What a much better theology over Purgatory
There is virtually no competency on the Protestant side on this subject. How does one even begin to deny Purgatory when you don't have anything except a claim which collapses on itself?

Can you point to where purgatory is mentioned in the bible? I can't find it. Also, baptism is an outward sign of our faith, its has no saving power. Universalism states everyone is saved no matter what (a position John Paul II had taken before though whether he considered dogma I'm not sure but he wrote it in one of his books) but, and while I can only speak for myself, we are saved by His grace through faith. In other words, with true faith in Jesus Christ's sufficient sacrifice, our sins are forgiven.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Can you point to where purgatory is mentioned in the bible? I can't find it. Also, baptism is an outward sign of our faith, its has no saving power. Universalism states everyone is saved no matter what (a position John Paul II had taken before though whether he considered dogma I'm not sure but he wrote it in one of his books) but, and while I can only speak for myself, we are saved by His grace through faith. In other words, with true faith in Jesus Christ's sufficient sacrifice, our sins are forgiven.

Purgatory is deduced from Scripture the same way the Trinity and loads of other doctrines are. I don't see you denying any of those.
In fact, Martin Luther didn't necessarily deny Purgatory either. Protestants are against Purgatory, simply, because it is a Catholic belief- whether they realize it or not.

I just put up Scripture, and not one single word has been spoken on any of it. It shows that even in forgiveness, satisfaction is still required. I don't know how that is not registering. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the Scripture that shows it that I have posted, don't sit there and continue to repeat the same thing over and over.

 

[Metal Minister]

Purgatory is deduced from Scripture the same way the Trinity and loads of other doctrines are. I don't see you denying any of those.
In fact, Martin Luther didn't necessarily deny Purgatory either. Protestants are against Purgatory, simply, because it is a Catholic belief- whether they realize it or not.

I just put up Scripture, and not one single word has been spoken on any of it. It shows that even in forgiveness, satisfaction is still required. I don't know how that is not registering. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the Scripture that shows it that I have posted, don't sit there and continue to repeat the same thing over and over.

Well I was going to continue to talk with you about this (I was pulled away before I could post scriptures affirming my position) but apparently you are fairly agitated by this discussion. I will instead walk away in favor of keeping things civil. God bless!

 

[steve_bakr]

Purgatory is deduced from Scripture the same way the Trinity and loads of other doctrines are. I don't see you denying any of those.
In fact, Martin Luther didn't necessarily deny Purgatory either. Protestants are against Purgatory, simply, because it is a Catholic belief- whether they realize it or not.

I just put up Scripture, and not one single word has been spoken on any of it. It shows that even in forgiveness, satisfaction is still required. I don't know how that is not registering. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the Scripture that shows it that I have posted, don't sit there and continue to repeat the same thing over and over.

IMHO, Purgatory is a mystery to us and it is difficult to make ironclad statements about it. Purgatory used to be thought of as a harsh place of "punishment." Now it is thought more of as a place of purification. And Catholic theologian Karl Rahner asserted the possibility of the person needing further "progress" after death, and that Purgatory is a "process." So, it is a mystery.

I'm also not entirely comfortable saying that God requires satisfaction for every sin and at all times. It is possible that God may forgo that with any person and any sin at any time. We must leave that possibility open and not restrict the possibilities of God.