The Godhead

[Schlauch Mann]

It says says: “…I am he…”. It doesn’t say “Jesus is I am”.

Depends on the translation. Arguments can be made either way as to whether Jesus is saying "I am he," or merely "I am," in John 8:24.

Notes from the NET translation say this:
Grk “unless you believe that I am.” In this context there is an implied predicate nominative (“he”) following the “I am” phrase. What Jesus’ hearers had to acknowledge is that he was who he claimed to be, i.e., the Messiah (cf. 20:31). This view is also reflected in English translations like NIV (“if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be”), NLT (“unless you believe that I am who I say I am”), and CEV (“if you don’t have faith in me for who I am”). For a different view that takes this “I am” and the one in 8:28 as nonpredicated (i.e., absolute), see R. E. Brown, John (AB), 1:533-38. Such a view sees the nonpredicated “I am” as a reference to the divine Name revealed in Exod 3:14, and is reflected in English translations like NAB (“if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins”) and TEV (“you will die in your sins if you do not believe that ‘I Am Who I Am’”).

 

[Jermayn]

This post isnt to fuel any fires or start arguments over doctrine.(But its inevitable). So I was thinking about the Trinity and Modalism. It seems to me that when Jesus says:


“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”

‭‭John‬ ‭8:24‬ ‭


That as long as we believe that Jesus is “I Am”( Y-hweh) we are good. I know both Trinitarianism and Modalism believe that, the just describe it in different terms. So my first question for you guys is this:

1: Do we as Christians need to believe that the Holy Ghost is God, to be saved? (If so, please provide scripture. If not, please provide scripture.)

2: Is it possible that, because we are fallen beings, both Trinitarianism and Modalism are insufficient to describe the Godhead(I’m not looking for examples for the fear of falling into heresy lol).


Lets keep this civil and scriptural

I've always thought of it as how humans have a body, a spirit, and a soul. That's just my thoughts on it though.

 

[1213]

...What Jesus’ hearers had to acknowledge is that he was who he claimed to be, i.e., the Messiah (cf. 20:31). ....

I also think he was claiming to be the Messiah.

 

[Andrewn]

It seems to me that when Jesus says: “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” John 8:24 That as long as we believe that Jesus is “I Am”( Y-hweh) we are good.

But is it really scriptural to say “Jesus is I am”? John 8:24 doesn’t say “Jesus is I am”.

Right but Jesus says that he is “I AM” see John 8:24

It says says: “…I am he…”. It doesn’t say “Jesus is I am”.

Depends on the translation. Arguments can be made either way as to whether Jesus is saying "I am he," or merely "I am," in John 8:24.

I also think he was claiming to be the Messiah.

I have to side with @Zachm531 and @Schlauch Mann. Jesus was indeed claiming to be the Messiah. But not only that, He was also claiming to Yahweh, himself, the I Am:


Joh 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I’m from above. You are from this world; I’m not from this world. 24 This is why I told you that you would die in your sins. If you don’t believe that I Am, you will die in your sins.”


Christ is the one ‘who springs from above (comp. John 3:31). Wherever Christ speaks of His heavenly descent, He speaks in the consciousness of having had a pre-human, supra-mundane existence (in the consciousness of the Logos), John 17:5, and lays claim to a transcendent relation of His essential nature.” (Meyer's NT Commentary)


“It not merely means ‘that I am the Messiah,’ but is the great name, which every Jew at once understood, I AM. Comp. John 8:28; John 8:58, John 13:19, John 18:5; Exodus 3:14; Deuteronomy 32:39; Isaiah 43:10.” (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)


Few verses later Jesus says:


Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see my day. He saw it and was happy. 58 “I assure you,” Jesus replied, “before Abraham was, I Am.”


Jesus is undeniably not only a human Messiah but also God himself. The Jews understood what He meant, this is why “they picked up stones to throw at him.”

 

[Zachm531]

A

I have to side with @Zachm531 and @Schlauch Mann. Jesus was indeed claiming to be the Messiah. But not only that, He was also claiming to Yahweh, himself, the I Am:


Joh 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I’m from above. You are from this world; I’m not from this world. 24 This is why I told you that you would die in your sins. If you don’t believe that I Am, you will die in your sins.”


Christ is the one ‘who springs from above (comp. John 3:31). Wherever Christ speaks of His heavenly descent, He speaks in the consciousness of having had a pre-human, supra-mundane existence (in the consciousness of the Logos), John 17:5, and lays claim to a transcendent relation of His essential nature.” (Meyer's NT Commentary)


“It not merely means ‘that I am the Messiah,’ but is the great name, which every Jew at once understood, I AM. Comp. John 8:28; John 8:58, John 13:19, John 18:5; Exodus 3:14; Deuteronomy 32:39; Isaiah 43:10.” (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)


Few verses later Jesus says:


Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see my day. He saw it and was happy. 58 “I assure you,” Jesus replied, “before Abraham was, I Am.”


Jesus is undeniably not only a human Messiah but also God himself. The Jews understood what He meant, this is why “they picked up stones to throw at him.”

Amen

 

[Dave L]

This post isnt to fuel any fires or start arguments over doctrine.(But its inevitable). So I was thinking about the Trinity and Modalism. It seems to me that when Jesus says:


“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”

‭‭John‬ ‭8:24‬ ‭


That as long as we believe that Jesus is “I Am”( Y-hweh) we are good. I know both Trinitarianism and Modalism believe that, the just describe it in different terms. So my first question for you guys is this:

1: Do we as Christians need to believe that the Holy Ghost is God, to be saved? (If so, please provide scripture. If not, please provide scripture.)

2: Is it possible that, because we are fallen beings, both Trinitarianism and Modalism are insufficient to describe the Godhead(I’m not looking for examples for the fear of falling into heresy lol).


Lets keep this civil and scriptural

Modalis depicts God as a split personality. Changing into the Son at times, or back into the Father. Much like Norman Bates, in the classic movie "Psycho". Kind of a "Norman Bates psycho Jesus" the bible knows nothing about.

 

[1213]

...Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see my day. He saw it and was happy. 58 “I assure you,” Jesus replied, “before Abraham was, I Am.”

If “I am” means God in that, then it would say: “before Abraham was, God”. That is not “I am God” (nor “I am I am”).

...Jesus is undeniably not only a human Messiah but also God himself....

How do you explain that Jesus says God is greater than him and there is only one true God that lives in Jesus?

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.
John 14:10

How could we deny what Jesus directly says?

 

[Andrewn]

the Father is greater than I. John 14:28

The context of this passage is that Jesus' going to the Father would be a gain. Thus, it's likely that the meaning is that Jesus on earth was inferior to His Father in Heaven.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

There is no problem, there. In the Nicene-Constantinople Creed we say:
"We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,"

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works. John 14:10

There is no problem here, either. In Fact, these words come immediately after a most significant verse:

14:9 Jesus replied, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don’t know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

The inescapable truth is that the Father and the Son are both Yahweh (I Am). As we say in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed:

"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father."

 

[Schlauch Mann]

If “I am” means God in that, then it would say: “before Abraham was, God”. That is not “I am God” (nor “I am I am”).

No, the English would say what the Greek says. And, as already shown in post #22, the Greek is literally "I am", so the English says "I am". The question is, though, what does "I am" refer to. And the argument can be made that it refers to the same "I am" that God claims for a name in the Old Testament.

How do you explain that Jesus says God is greater than him and there is only one true God that lives in Jesus?

Context.

Nothing Jesus said exists in a vacuum. There is a time, a place, an audience, and conditions that exists that determine meaning.

It's a difference in position, not in nature. Just as my boss has a higher position than I do at work; however, that doesn't make me less human than my boss. In the same manner, the Son having a lower position than the Father doesn't make the Son less God than the Father. Further, at the time of His incarnation, Jesus "emptied" Himself of His glory & authority (Philippians 2:5-8) , which, in that context, made Him lower than the Father.

How could we deny what Jesus directly says?

As explained above, we're not denying it at all.

Also, be careful. You seem awful close to arguing against the Trinity. That's a no-no in this section.

 

[1213]

...Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.”...

In this case I think it is good to remember that disciples of Jesus are also one with God.

I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
John 17:11

that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.
John 17:21

I think being one means that we have same will.

 

[Andrewn]

In this case I think it is good to remember that disciples of Jesus are also one with God. . . . John 17:11. . . . John 17:21. . . . I think being one means that we have same will.

I don't need to reinvent the wheel . Here's the response:

For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - John 10:30

 

[1213]

I don't need to reinvent the wheel . Here's the response:

For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - John 10:30

In that link there is this:
“In this context, He can only be asserting His unity with His Father as the author of eternal life and equal in power to Him who is "greater than all."

When one makes interpretations and gives own meanings to what is said in the Bible, I think it would be crucial to then notice everything that is said in the Bible, else the interpretation can easily be wrong. And this is why I want to say, according to the Bible, Jesus is not equal in power to God, as these words of Jesus show:

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

…the Father who lives in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me; or else believe me for the very works' sake…
John 14:10-14

I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don't seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me.
John 5:30

"Most assuredly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
John 5:19

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
John 12:49-50

"My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17

Paul confirms what Jesus said:

When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
1 Cor. 15:28

God exalted him with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
Acts 5:31

I think direct words in the Bible are enough for me, I don’t need interpretations to get new meanings for what is said in the Bible. And those scriptures tell that God lives in Jesus and God is the one that gives the power to Jesus.

 

[Andrewn]

And those scriptures tell that God lives in Jesus and God is the one that gives the power to Jesus.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

And this is why I want to say, according to the Bible, Jesus is not equal in power to God, as these words of Jesus show:

This where we disagree. The Christian view was best expressed by John Kleinig, of Australian Lutheran College, promoted a form of sub-ordinationism and concluded:

"Well then, is the exalted Christ in any way subordinate to the Father right now? The answer is both "yes" and "no". It all depends on whether we are speaking about Him in His nature as God, or about Him in his office as the exalted Son of God. On the one hand, He is not subordinate to the Father in His divine essence, status, and majesty. On the other hand, He is, I hold, subordinate to the Father in His vice-regal office and His work as prophet, priest, and king. He is operationally subordinate to the Father. In the present operation of the triune God in the church and the world, He is the mediator between God the Father and humankind. The exalted Christ receives everything from His Father to deliver to us, so that in turn, He can bring us back to the Father."

Subordinationism - Wikipedia

 

[ViaCrucis]

I've always thought of it as how humans have a body, a spirit, and a soul. That's just my thoughts on it though.

Even assuming trichotomism is true (and I would argue it's not, but that's another debate altogether), it would be a problematic comparison to make.

My soul isn't a person distinct from my body. These are components which make up me as a living-breathing human person.

On the contrary, God is three distinct, co-eternal, consubstantial Persons. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

-CryptoLutheran