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Featured The Godhead

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Zachm531, Jan 7, 2020.

  1. Zachm531

    Zachm531 Member

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    This post isnt to fuel any fires or start arguments over doctrine.(But its inevitable). So I was thinking about the Trinity and Modalism. It seems to me that when Jesus says:


    “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”

    ‭‭John‬ ‭8:24‬ ‭


    That as long as we believe that Jesus is “I Am”( Y-hweh) we are good. I know both Trinitarianism and Modalism believe that, the just describe it in different terms. So my first question for you guys is this:

    1: Do we as Christians need to believe that the Holy Ghost is God, to be saved? (If so, please provide scripture. If not, please provide scripture.)

    2: Is it possible that, because we are fallen beings, both Trinitarianism and Modalism are insufficient to describe the Godhead(I’m not looking for examples for the fear of falling into heresy lol).


    Lets keep this civil and scriptural
     
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  2. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    It's not about believing the right things to be saved, it's about faithfully confessing the true faith.

    Modalism is heresy.
    Trinitarianism is orthodoxy.

    It's not that someone who has a wrong belief about God is somehow going to go to hell, and someone who has the right belief is going to go to heaven. It's about faithfully answering Christ's question, "Who do you say that I am?" That's why things like Christology matter. What we say about God, what we say about Jesus, what we say about the the things of faith matter. Because our worship, our preaching, our confession all depend upon it.

    God is perfectly capable of saving the heterodox. So that's not the issue.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  3. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Sequential Modalism is heresy.

    Does the One God have one will, purpose, and agency?
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  4. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    All three work as One at the same time with no beginning and no ending. All through scripture God appeared in two ways, fire and smoke and human/angel form. He then came in the Flesh as Jesus Christ of Nazareth. He bestowed His will through the power of the Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament there were unique events when people were filled with His Holy Spirit to deliver his message. After Jesus Christ left earth the Holy Spirit dwells inside the believer. This is the Trinity. Ezekiel saw visions of God.
    Ezekiel 1:1-28:22
     
  5. Zachm531

    Zachm531 Member

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    I appreciate the scripture but it does not answer nor address my question
     
  6. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    The historically orthodox answer is one Nature and thus one will. The will of God is the will of God.

    However, as far as agency goes, I would argue for a distinction in agency, not on account of will, but relation.

    "What then, say they, is there lacking to the Spirit which prevents His being a Son, for if there were not something lacking He would be a Son? We assert that there is nothing lacking—for God has no deficiency. But the difference of manifestation, if I may so express myself, or rather of their mutual relations one to another, has caused the difference of their Names. For indeed it is not some deficiency in the Son which prevents His being Father (for Sonship is not a deficiency), and yet He is not Father. According to this line of argument there must be some deficiency in the Father, in respect of His not being Son. For the Father is not Son, and yet this is not due to either deficiency or subjection of Essence; but the very fact of being Unbegotten or Begotten, or Proceeding has given the name of Father to the First, of the Son to the Second, and of the Third, Him of Whom we are speaking, of the Holy Ghost that the distinction of the Three Persons may be preserved in the one nature and dignity of the Godhead. For neither is the Son Father, for the Father is One, but He is what the Father is; nor is the Spirit Son because He is of God, for the Only-begotten is One, but He is what the Son is. The Three are One in Godhead, and the One Three in properties; so that neither is the Unity a Sabellian one, nor does the Trinity countenance the present evil distinction." - St. Gregory Nazianzen, Oration 31 On the Holy Spirit, ch. IX

    It is their "mutual relations" as St. Gregory puts it here, that I argue gives them agency, the Father relates to the Son, the Son to the Father, et al. But all is of one will and one act. The will of the Father is the same will of the Son and the Spirit; but that does not mean the Son and Spirit are not distinct, for the Son can speak concerning the Father, even as the Father can speak concerning the Son. The Father can say, "This is My beloved Son" even as the Son can say, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;". And in the same way could Ananais and Sapphira could lie to the Holy Spirit.

    The unity of the Being and the distinction of the Persons are equally important in our confession.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  7. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    In the other thread (quoted above), I mentioned my belief that the Holy Trinity possessed one "agency." But I was taking a shot in the dark, I wasn't sure. I'm now sure I was right after reading another old thread in the Christian Forums where @Constantine the Sinner wrote:

    "To be simple, the Orthodox believe God has a threefold existence, with one agency, will and operation. Catholics believe God is unitarian in existence, but relating to himself in three different ways."

    The Trinity in Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy

    This explains the difference between our positions. Yours being the Western view and mine being the Eastern view.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  8. Schlauch Mann

    Schlauch Mann New Member

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    I don't see any such requirement. (I can't provide a Scripture of something that isn't in Scripture.)

    I would say it's impossible for our flawed, finite minds to fully comprehend God, so any attempt to fully describe the nature of God must necessarily be insufficient in some way. I will say, however, that modalism is much more insufficient than trinitarianism.
     
  9. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    But is it really scriptural to say “Jesus is I am”? John 8:24 doesn’t say “Jesus is I am”.
     
  10. Zachm531

    Zachm531 Member

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    Right but Jesus says that he is “I AM” see John 8:24
     
  11. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Who do you believe the Holy Spirit is?
     
  12. Zachm531

    Zachm531 Member

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    The Spirit of the Lord, the third Person of the Trinity
     
  13. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    You believe the Holy Spirit is God: the 3rd person of the Trinity. What was your first question about, then?
     
  14. Schlauch Mann

    Schlauch Mann New Member

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    I believe He is the 3rd person of the Godhead.
     
  15. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    It sounds like we all agree. Why then do you believe the Holy Spirit isn't God?
     
  16. Schlauch Mann

    Schlauch Mann New Member

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    What? I never said I believe He isn't God. :scratch:
     
  17. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Sorry for my misunderstanding. I made this conclusion bec of the following exchange:

     
  18. Schlauch Mann

    Schlauch Mann New Member

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    I'm not claiming the HS isn't God, but only that believing He is God is not a requirement for salvation. I'm saying that requirement is not stated anywhere in Scripture.

    In other words, it's possible, for example, to read the Bible, believe it, and come away with the impression that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force from God, but not God Himself. Such a belief, imho, would not disqualify someone from salvation.
     
  19. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    I'm starting to think that a lot of theological doctrines are not required, except believing in the deity of Christ. People who disagree with what I said would quote the following verse:

    Eph 4:5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all.

    They take the word "faith" to mean "doctrines." Only God knows.
     
  20. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    It says says: “…I am he…”. It doesn’t say “Jesus is I am”.
     
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