The Global Flood

[AV1611VET]

I also find it suspect that Hell is never mentioned in the Tanakh, and Paul never mentions it in any of his letters to the Gentile churches. For something so important, it's left out of most of the Bible.

Zophar mentions Hell in Job 11:8.
Moses mentions Hell in Deuteronomy 32:22.
So does David, Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Amos, Jonah (who went there), Habakkuk, Jesus, Peter, and James.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't need the Bible to understand hypocrisy. Nor do I need it to understand that humans make mistakes. Indeed, it's because of these understandings that "I don't need to be forgiven."

That said, what on earth is your point?

Again, nvxplorer, the question isn't that hard.

Would you or would you not be qualified to cast the first stone?

(Start the music, John - nv and av are gonna dance.)

 

[JohnR7]

Paul never mentions it in any of his letters to the Gentile churches.

You never heard it said to never say never Paul does use the word once in a quote from Hosea.

1 Cor. 15:55
"O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?"

1 Cor. 15:57
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[nvxplorer]

Again, nvxplorer, the question isn't that hard.

Would you or would you not be qualified to cast the first stone?

(Start the music, John - nv and av are gonna dance.)

Your question has already been answered.

Fault is a human trait. We are all guilty of hypocrisy. Asking whether I am qualified to engage in hypocrisy regarding the fault of others is nonsensical.

Again, what is your point? Your question is irrelevant to my statement that many of us don't feel a need to be forgiven. We're not lost. That doesn't mean we think we're perfect. To the contrary, we accept our shortcomings, and realize that error is part of human nature.

 

[AV1611VET]

Your question has already been answered.

Fault is a human trait. We are all guilty of hypocrisy. Asking whether I am qualified to engage in hypocrisy regarding the fault of others is nonsensical.

Again, what is your point? Your question is irrelevant to my statement that many of us don't feel a need to be forgiven. We're not lost. That doesn't mean we think we're perfect. To the contrary, we accept our shortcomings, and realize that error is part of human nature.

Consider the question withdrawn - sorry it's too hard for you.

 

[vitodabona]

You never heard it said to never say never Paul does use the word once in a quote from Hosea.

1 Cor. 15:55
"O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?"

Hades does not equal hell or Lucifer. Hades (Roman Pluto) is both the under world (land of the dead) and the ruler of the under world in Greek mythology. All people's shades go to Hades (except the rare few who were defied) regardless of the behavior on earth. This quote seems to be a "cheap shot" at the old religion.

 

[nvxplorer]

Consider the question withdrawn - sorry it's too hard for you.

Oh darn! And I thought we were gonna dance.

If you think you're going to engage me in an (undoubtedly premeditated) attack, you're sorely mistaken.

Answer me this. Are you qualified to drink water? If you see the nonsense of that question, you will understand my answer.

Did you miss this: Fault is a human trait. We are all guilty of hypocrisy...That doesn't mean we [atheists] think we're perfect.

With hypocrisy being a fault, and fault being a human trait, it is in our nature to cast stones. One doesn't require qualifications to act in a natural manner. Comprendes?

"Don't be a hypocrite" is a straightforward message, which your Bible passage poetically illustrates. I am qualified to glean that message. Are you?

 

[AV1611VET]

Comprendes?

NV, I'll try this one more time.

[bible]John 8:1-7[/bible]

Without your comments, without you adding to the story, without you mentioning perfection, hypocrisy, or whatever else you thought the story was talking about:

In your opinion, are you qualified to cast the first stone?

Just 'yes' or 'no'?

 

[Jase]

Zophar mentions Hell in Job 11:8.
Moses mentions Hell in Deuteronomy 32:22.
So does David, Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Amos, Jonah (who went there), Habakkuk, Jesus, Peter, and James.

Actually, that is Sheol - the grave or underworld, which is not equated with the eternal torture version fundamentalists created. Jews don't believe in Hell.

 

[Jase]

Hades does not equal hell or Lucifer. Hades (Roman Pluto) is both the under world (land of the dead) and the ruler of the under world in Greek mythology. All people's shades go to Hades (except the rare few who were defied) regardless of the behavior on earth. This quote seems to be a "cheap shot" at the old religion.

And all New Testament references to Hell are Hades in Greek.

 

[AV1611VET]

Actually, that is Sheol - the grave or underworld, which is not equated with the eternal torture version fundamentalists created. Jews don't believe in Hell.

Actually that is "Hell", a place of fire and brimstone.

I don't care what "sheol" is - (isn't he a foot specialist or something?).

I don't care about Gehenna, or all those other foreign words in Wrong's Concordance, either.

I have a question for those of you who don't believe in Hell, as it is described in the King James Bible:

What, then is the Lake of Fire - which is where Hell itself is ultimately going?

I suppose you're gonna wrest the Scriptures to say that means something else too, right?

 

[nvxplorer]

NV, I'll try this one more time.

Without your comments, without you adding to the story, without you mentioning perfection, hypocrisy, or whatever else you thought the story was talking about:

In your opinion, are you qualified to cast the first stone?

Just 'yes' or 'no'?

Are you still beating your wife?

I'm not going to play your game, so say what you want to say and we can move on.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Again, nvxplorer, the question isn't that hard.

Would you or would you not be qualified to cast the first stone?

What is with this Christian obsession with casting stones? Didn't Jesus warn against that sort of thing?

 

[vitodabona]

Zophar mentions Hell in Job 11:8.
Moses mentions Hell in Deuteronomy 32:22.
So does David, Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Amos, Jonah (who went there), Habakkuk, Jesus, Peter, and James.

These quotes mention the Hebrew Sheol which equates to the grave, and not hell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

 

[nvxplorer]

I don't care about Gehenna, or all those other foreign words in Wrong's Concordance, either.

Too funny.

You do realize that, regarding the Bible, English is the foreign language?

 

[TheBear]

I'd like to have a discussion about the alleged Global Flood and it's problems.

Now from what I understand and used to believe when I was a YEC, most creationists claim the flood occurred within the last 10,000 years. They also claim that all geological events were associated with it. That is things like mountain building, the separation of pangea, limestone calcification, magma cooling, asteroid impacts, valley formation, glacier formation, etc. etc.

Now I'm going to just look at one problem associated with all of this. That is the problem of heat. The detailed explanation can be found here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html#flood

Let's just look at limestone calcification. Based on the amount of limestone found in the Earth's sediment and the amount of heat the process of calcification releases, if only 10% of the limestone on the Earth formed during the flood it would release 5.6 X 10^26 joules of energy. That's enough heat to boil all the flood waters.

Now we look at magma cooling. If the magma on the Earth all cooled from the flood waters, we get a heat release of 5.4 X 10^27 joules of heat, and this isn't counting the amount of heat given off by magma crystallization. That amount of joules of heat is enough to vaporize all the water on the Earth. This in turn would cause steam to rise, raising the air temperature to 1000 degrees Celsius. That's hot enough to boil off the atmosphere, which in turn would cause the rays of the sun to fry the surface of the Earth. If we still had an atmosphere, there would be so much heat contained by it, that it would make the Earth too hot to exist on. It takes millions of years to radiate that kind of heat with an atmosphere.

Now, I just referred to 2 events - magma cooling, and limestone calcification. I'd imagine when you throw in asteroid impacts, and continents colliding hard enough to raise the Earth 30,000 feet in less than a year, it would release enough energy to liquify the lithosphere.

Now remember, I'm just looking at the heat issue. There are certainly other problems to contend with. Now one has to ask how Noah survived such extreme temperatures. If G-d supernaturally protected him, what was the point of the Ark?

And of course, why would G-d go to such great lengths for this? He would literally be breaking every natural law he created in order to do this. Why liquify the entire Earth, making it uninhabitable for billions of years to come, even for the 8 people found righteous, just to kill off some localized biological beings? Doesn't that seem just a bit overkill? Confucius' famous line rings quite true here: "do not use cannon to kill mosquito".

G-d used the angel of death during Exodus. That would have been far more practical to do for the flood. The Bible never mentions G-d doing that many miracles to not only allow the earth and Noah and the animals to survive, but also to clean up the whole mess for after he gets off the ark, only to leave no remnants of the whole event.

Someone more knowledgable here may be able to give us an idea, but I'd imagine the heat released from all of those events, in order to fit the geological events within a year or less would be enough to disintegrate the entire planet. It doesn't seem necessary for G-d to go to those lengths. It just makes no sense.

Any thoughts and additions?

There are a number of problems for the global flood crowd.


(I just wanted to get this thread back on topic. )

 

[Nathan Poe]

Too funny.

You do realize that, regarding the Bible, English is the foreign language?

Silly nv, don't you know that there was no Bible until 1611, when God put it into his language: "The King's English," so to speak?

 

[nvxplorer]

There are a number of problems for the global flood crowd.


(I just wanted to get this thread back on topic. )

Yeah, I know you're a stickler for that. You are correct, of course, but I'm enjoying my "dance" with AV.

 

[nvxplorer]

Silly nv, don't you know that there was no Bible until 1611, when God put it into his language: "The King's English," so to speak?

Not only that. God also dropped the Protestants from the sky.

 

[Nathan Poe]

There are a number of problems for the global flood crowd.


(I just wanted to get this thread back on topic. )

Bravo for trying to rerail this thread