The Genesis Enigma ~ Combined Thread

[cleminson]

Hi. Of course the word evolution does not appear in the Bible, nor does geography, geology or heliocentrisism; but that does not mean that we know now that the world is an orb or that there are strata in our Earth or that we know that the Earth is not the center of the Universe.

What some Christians have done is query, “What if our understanding of the Creation Scriptures is wrong and the scientists are partially right?” If an ancient Earth is real, does it nullify the Creation Scriptures? NO, it does not.

In my understanding of the Genesis Scriptures, which I have laid out in my threads “The Genesis Enigma”, that Adam was created in the third period of Creation, a mix of God’s spirit breath and matter. Adam became a part spiritual being living in a part spiritual, part matter place called Eden. Mankind was created in the sixth period of Creation when God either created them in a “flash” or formed them slowly over billenia, originally from an amoeba that God chose to direct his creative influence over until some changed into “MAN”, when He gave them a soul. I am comfortable that until the missing link is found either could have happened. I am also comfortable that my forefathers came from the sixth period of creation; what does count is that I am now a new creature in Christ and a son of God. Adams sons married with the daughters of men after he fell from the Heavenly Eden.

So man and the Adamic lines are the same and bestiality is a gross sin. I am sure that there are people that have more of an Adamic lineage than others, especially in the Middle East. These people are Christian, Jewish and from Islam. However, after Jesus’ crucifixion, only the sons of God will inherit a place in the Heavenly garden of Eden where the Tree of Life grows.

If you wish to read a synopsis of what I believe but find the whole of “The Genesis Enigma” a bit long, read the last three threads – 21,22,23.

 

[juvenissun]

Why, if Christians regard themselves as “new creations in Christ” and different from the rest of mankind, should they have a problem with God creating two types of human beings? Christians believe that there are two types of people alive on this Earth at this time – those that are new creatures in Christ, new because they have the Spirit of God in them and therefore Christians and those who aren’t. So could there have been two types of people then – the sons of God who could fellowship with Him and the rest of mankind? God calls us “new creatures” after “new birth”, not changed humans, it seems that mystically, being born again transforms humans into a different type of being – a sons of God.

I did not read your WHOLE article, not even one whole chapter. But I am going to raise my question. If my question was address anywhere in your paper, please point me to it.

It seems you think that "sons of man" or "sons of Adam" and "sons of God" are two different creations (on different "day"). So, we, as sons of Adam, are not sons of God. And you do not like the theology which suggested that we, because the receiving of the Holy Spirit, will become, or has already become, the sons of God.

Is this a correct summary on one of your idea?

If you blamed me not reading through your paper, then I am sorry. I do not have time for that. I rather like to read the outline or the abstract of your paper (or even a list of chapter titles) first. But I do not see either of them.

If you think I am naive in the understanding of your paper, that is fine. However, you will not get my comment either. And I don't even know how to pray for you and your paper.

 

[cleminson]

It seems you think that "sons of man" or "sons of Adam" and "sons of God" are two different creations (on different "day"). So, we, as sons of Adam, are not sons of God. And you do not like the theology which suggested that we, because the receiving of the Holy Spirit, will become, or has already become, the sons of God.

Is this a correct summary on one of your idea?

Firstly I do not see you of either being blameworthy nor naive. I am trying to prove that The sons of Adam were the first sons of God. The sons of man can only become sons of God by getting saved. I am sorry that the paper is so long but the theory is dependant on the whole.

 

[juvenissun]

Firstly I do not see you of either being blameworthy nor naive. I am trying to prove that The sons of Adam were the first sons of God. The sons of man can only become sons of God by getting saved. I am sorry that the paper is so long but the theory is dependant on the whole.

I think so too. Why do you need to prove it?

 

[cleminson]

Hi Juvanissun. If you believe that Adam was created as a spiritual being in a spiritual Garden of Eden, falling to Earth after he sinned and died to that Heavenly world. When he arrived on this Earth there were already men alive that could have evolved or as I prefere to say were created by God over many billenium. That the people in the land of Nod were just some of these people who God loved but were not of the Adamic line - not the sons of God but a people that God wanted to bring to himself through his Son Jesus Christ. Whom he also wanted to give that life that Adam lost in Eden. If you believe this then we are singing from the same hymn sheet.

 

[juvenissun]

Brovo! That is what I am looking for: a super abstract. In fact, you can double the length of this summary for a little bit more detail.

Now I start to see what are you getting to. It would still be better if you can put chapter notes (numbers) behind each key idea, so I can go to those chapters for elaboration.

------

The people "already" on earth at the moment when Adam was kicked out is indeed a new idea. Which chapter is that?

Again, I think you should have a content page right at the beginning. Are you skipping that in the post or you do not have it? It just takes 5 minutes to get that important page done.

 

[cleminson]

Juvenissun, the best sections to go to for how I think it might have all happened is part 9 - 12. Though I see micro theology as being vital to our attempts to make sense of the opening chapters of Genesis, I think that we need to take a macro theological view of the whole Bible to really get an understanding.

Yes we do need to try to get the micro translation of the important words right but by doing it we still seem to have discrepancies in our understanding of Genesis. I believe that we need to assign "possibles" to our translation and interpretations to achieve a Macro view, then if it all makes sense at the end, we could have a solution. I am more than happy with what I have found for myself and am glad to share them with someone like you who enjoys thinking outside the box.

 

[juvenissun]

Juvenissun, the best sections to go to for how I think it might have all happened is part 9 - 12. Though I see micro theology as being vital to our attempts to make sense of the opening chapters of Genesis, I think that we need to take a macro theological view of the whole Bible to really get an understanding.

Yes we do need to try to get the micro translation of the important words right but by doing it we still seem to have discrepancies in our understanding of Genesis. I believe that we need to assign "possibles" to our translation and interpretations to achieve a Macro view, then if it all makes sense at the end, we could have a solution. I am more than happy with what I have found for myself and am glad to share them with someone like you who enjoys thinking outside the box.

OK, I read some of them. Let me ask you a question as a result:

Will the special understanding on the creation of Adam and human according to your theology solve any problem which is difficult to answer by a "normal" (means more common) understanding? Namely, Adam is created on Day six.

Yes, according to yours, the description in Gen 2 can be explained. What else?

 

[cleminson]

Juvenissun, I believe it does. The first is that it allows OE, s to believe in a literal Adam. This gives me a better understanding of the spiritual death that Adam and the sons of God lived in and therefore the LIFE that Christ gave us when He died to give us back the life that Adam lost.

It also explains why our Earth is not perfect, it was created from the building blocks of confusion with violence and death going back to the beginning of life, however millions or billions of years ago, with dinosaurs killing one another then and the sickness, disease, violence and fear being the lot of this creation. As opposed to the perfect place that was created for Adam in Eden. Eden is still perfect and still awaits us, with the Tree of Life. It is not God’s fault that floods, earthquakes and wars occur; they are only the fruit of an imperfect world, one that did not even recognise its Creator when He took the form of Jesus Christ and came to us.

Salvation takes on a new depth as we understand exactly what new life means, the gift of an “evolved” human formed, from confusion, yet loved by God and being offered the life that Adam once had in Eden and more importantly a relationship with our Father.

Finally it allows Christians to forget the battle with evolutionists, it is mostly unimportant. What ever they find out about our creation is unimportant to our faith because it should not violate our beliefs. It does not matter how we were created, it only matters that we get saved and come into that new life.

I believe my theory explains, The people in the Land of Nod, God's anger at the sons of God before the flood, His desire for the children of Israel to keep themselves spiritually pure until the savior came, the different "forms" the Jesus went through after His death on the Cross until he rose to sit on the right hand of God the Father.

 

[juvenissun]

Juvenissun, I believe it does. The first is that it allows OE, s to believe in a literal Adam. This gives me a better understanding of the spiritual death that Adam and the sons of God lived in and therefore the LIFE that Christ gave us when He died to give us back the life that Adam lost.

It also explains why our Earth is not perfect, it was created from the building blocks of confusion with violence and death going back to the beginning of life, however millions or billions of years ago, with dinosaurs killing one another then and the sickness, disease, violence and fear being the lot of this creation. As opposed to the perfect place that was created for Adam in Eden. Eden is still perfect and still awaits us, with the Tree of Life. It is not God’s fault that floods, earthquakes and wars occur; they are only the fruit of an imperfect world, one that did not even recognise its Creator when He took the form of Jesus Christ and came to us.

Salvation takes on a new depth as we understand exactly what new life means, the gift of an “evolved” human formed, from confusion, yet loved by God and being offered the life that Adam once had in Eden and more importantly a relationship with our Father.

Finally it allows Christians to forget the battle with evolutionists, it is mostly unimportant. What ever they find out about our creation is unimportant to our faith because it should not violate our beliefs. It does not matter how we were created, it only matters that we get saved and come into that new life.

I believe my theory explains, The people in the Land of Nod, God's anger at the sons of God before the flood, His desire for the children of Israel to keep themselves spiritually pure until the savior came, the different "forms" the Jesus went through after His death on the Cross until he rose to sit on the right hand of God the Father.

Very good. I start to see the structure of your thesis.

As a result, it would take me more time to think about it. Thanks.

Last question: Any theory has problem. What is or are the problems of your theory? Just give one or two of the most obvious ones.

 

[cleminson]

There was one Scripture that caused me to hesitate in publishing this theory on this forum; I did not want to feed error into other peoples minds. The only verses that “stumped” me at the time were Job 38:4-12 where God challenges Job by asking,” Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell if you have understanding! Who has set its measurements, for you know? Or who has stretched the line on it? On what are its bases sunk, or who cast its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it broke forth as it came from the womb? When My limit on it, and set bars and doors, and I said, you shall come to here, but no further; and here your proud waves shall stop. Have you commanded the morning from your days, and caused the dawn to know its place.” God was letting Job know that there is a Godly structure and purpose to his Creation process.

It also made it seem that the sons of God existed before the foundations of matter were laid. If that were the case then could they have been the Adamic line? Could they have been in spiritual existence before the foundations of earth? If you accept my macro theology, then Adam certainly witnessed the foundations of the Earth and lived to give the account that we now have of Creation to his offspring.

I have come to a macro theological view, in that it is possible that He could also be telling us that God’s chosen “sons of God” existed in some spiritual form, before the Universe was created? After all the last verse says that the “morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy”, when the “cornerstone” of creation was first laid. This is also shown in Proverbs 8:22-23 where the prophet says “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.” He could not have been speaking of Jesus here because I believe that Jesus was God but just not God’s spiritual form but God’s Light form which could walk in the Garden with Adam. As opposed to His final form when he became the Human Jesus to walk on our physical Earth.

We know from Revelation that our names were written in the Lamb’s Book of Life before the foundation of the Earth. Philippians 4:3, “And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow laborers, whose names are in the book of life.” And again in Revelations 3:5 “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”

I have just noticed another possible scripture that strengthens my theory. What if the "morning stars that sang together" speak of the Angels singing together before Satan and his cohorts were bound to a semi physical environment. I have not researched this but I will.

Thank you very much for your question.

 

[juvenissun]

I have just noticed another possible scripture that strengthens my theory. What if the "morning stars that sang together" speak of the Angels singing together before Satan and his cohorts were bound to a semi physical environment. I have not researched this but I will. [/I]

Yes, that is what I like to say. Where is the position of angels in your creation theory?

Well, thank you for your thought of 20+ years. If I have more question when read your posts, you will hear me again.

 

[cleminson]

Hi Juvanissun. I believe that the good Angels are Gods messangers. The fallen ones are locked into that part spiritual and part physical existence, that we can not see. I believe also that they have no power over Christians, unless we are foolish enough to give it to them. If we do then there is deliverance in Jesus Christ.

 

[stumpjumper]

MOD NOTE:

Merging threads...

 

[cleminson]

Thank you for putting all my thoughts onto one thread. It embarassed me to see it dominate the forum. Sorry to the Theistic evolution forum for any offence I clearly commited.
cleminson

 

[Akathist]

Thread moved here from Theistic Evolution by OP's request.