The Gay Christian Dilemma

[Truthfrees]

It's not my essay, it's someone elses that I paraphrased, but thank you.

I used to believe that I was destined for a life of celibacy because that was the only way I could be a Christian and be gay. In fact, I believed I was in unescapable sin because I couldn't not be attracted to women, the lustful thoughts I had for women were worse than if they were lusting after men. It was only after meeting other gay Chrstians and getting exposed their world did I began to see the side that I am currently on, but ultimately what convinced me was far from a theological argument. When I first met my then fiancee was I determined to remain celibate, in fact, my original intent behind asking her out to dinner was to end the friendship early before it hurt more with more damage. I'm not exactly sure what "proned me", but I knew that I was in the wrong for wanting to end it because cared for her.

I'll assume you're talking about two gay people of the same sex living together in a relationship, but not engaging in sex? I wouldn't call that unnacceptable, but perhaps unwise if they believe they shouldn't be engaging in sex. That's why before I never really considered that as an option.

Thought provoking. Thank you for sharing this. Beautifully expressed. I'm praying. God bless you.

 

[Hetta]

Thank you. I see what you're saying.

I've noticed also the tendency for denominations to hate each other because of their dissenting scripture interpretations.

I'm wof and mj and both of those groups take a lot of flack from other Christians, which is a small issue compared to what GLBTs are dealing with.

I guess the common denominator is that the hatred is for the sin, and it wrongly gets projected onto the person.

EG. Some Christians think it's a sin for WOF to use their faith in a way that looks prideful and arrogant, or greedy.

Some Christians think it's a sin for MJ to live Torah, because they believe it nullifies the work of the cross of Christ.

People get really upset about these things and get mean and hateful because of it. They don't see it as a different interpretation. They see it as living in sin, an affront to God, etc.

I guess that's the beauty of CF. There's a forum for pretty much everyone, so that everyone can safely share with like-minded believers.

I go to other forums that believe and talk differently than wof and mj and I don't find enough agreeable content to encourage my faith. Whereas wof and mj forums give me the boost I need to walk daily in the things I know to be true in a world that disagrees with most of what I believe.

Do I wish I could find more agreement and acceptance in the real world? Yes. But I can't.

I can live the life I know pleases God, but I can't usually speak of my beliefs openly, because it can cause strife.

The same goes for the different CF forums. When people disagree with a forum, yet come into a forum attacking the beliefs or teaching in contradiction to the beliefs, it upsets the peace and safety of that forum.

IOW, we all need a place to call home, a safe haven, where we can be ourselves.

I think you would have to see some of the posts that are directed at Marius to understand the kind of hatred he is talking about. The thread that existed to discuss the new "married" icons was a typical example. I have watched the spiraling down into hatred this past year, and it has moved me from calling myself a Christian to not being sure about my beliefs any longer. Yes, I believe in a God and Christ, but I don't want to be allied with the kind of people who use their standing as a Christ follower to expound hatefulness towards others. I wonder how a God of love can transform, for them, into a hateful bully. I want nothing of that, or them. We "liberal" Christians are absolutely in the minority on this forum, but we seem to be growing in number and that's a good thing. Attitudes are changing, and I believe that in time the negative individuals will be in the minority, and the rest of the world will realize that it needs to just get on with its own business, its own marriages, its own sexuality, and stop trying to police everyone else! I'll probably be dead by then, but oh well.

 

[Marius27]

As an example of the hate I'm referring to, this is posted in the MJ forum and despite reporting it, the mods have left it there, seemingly having no issue with it:

There is no such thing as a Homosexual because sexual relations are between male and female.

Gay activity is filthy, inverted, deviant behaviour that the Rulers of the World are imposing with increasingly greater force.

Gay Marriage has existed for thousands of years, as Gay People become One with Gayness. Marriage is an act of union.

Contrary to popular belief, Gay People are not seeking Equal Rights, they already have greater rights in the world than all others and use those rights to militantly terrorise, harass, systematically abuse and victimise straight people.

The Genuine Gays <Staff Edit> are the antithesis of Jehovah/Yahweh God.

The World Gets What They Deserve, Do They Not?

The Pink Swastika: Homosexuality in the Nazi Party is a book first published in 1995 by Scott Lively and Kevin Abrams,[1] and currently in its 5th edition.[2] The book has drawn criticism from historians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pink_Swastika


For the record, Scott Lively who co-authored that book is one of the Evangelicals responsible for creating Uganda's "Kill the Gays" bill, and both him and Kevin Abrams blame gays for the Nazi regime and their atrocities.

 

[Marius27]

And because of the level of pain I see here in this forum, I will be extra careful in making sure I speak lovingly to you, and not cause you more pain.

But you seem to be saying God doesn't accept gays as they are since you claim he views homosexuality as sinful and evil. Yet, I believe even Jesus said that people like gays are born that way.

 

[Truthfrees]

I think you would have to see some of the posts that are directed at Marius to understand the kind of hatred he is talking about. The thread that existed to discuss the new "married" icons was a typical example. I have watched the spiraling down into hatred this past year, and it has moved me from calling myself a Christian to not being sure about my beliefs any longer. Yes, I believe in a God and Christ, but I don't want to be allied with the kind of people who use their standing as a Christ follower to expound hatefulness towards others. I wonder how a God of love can transform, for them, into a hateful bully. I want nothing of that, or them. We "liberal" Christians are absolutely in the minority on this forum, but we seem to be growing in number and that's a good thing. Attitudes are changing, and I believe that in time the negative individuals will be in the minority, and the rest of the world will realize that it needs to just get on with its own business, its own marriages, its own sexuality, and stop trying to police everyone else! I'll probably be dead by then, but oh well.

I haven't seen the thread but I believe you. Hatred is not from God. Forgiveness and love is.

 

[Truthfrees]

As an example of the hate I'm referring to, this is posted in the MJ forum and despite reporting it, the mods have left it there, seemingly having no issue with it:

There is no such thing as a Homosexual because sexual relations are between male and female.

Gay activity is filthy, inverted, deviant behaviour that the Rulers of the World are imposing with increasingly greater force.

Gay Marriage has existed for thousands of years, as Gay People become One with Gayness. Marriage is an act of union.

Contrary to popular belief, Gay People are not seeking Equal Rights, they already have greater rights in the world than all others and use those rights to militantly terrorise, harass, systematically abuse and victimise straight people.

The Genuine Gays <Staff Edit> are the antithesis of Jehovah/Yahweh God.

The World Gets What They Deserve, Do They Not?

The Pink Swastika: Homosexuality in the Nazi Party is a book first published in 1995 by Scott Lively and Kevin Abrams,[1] and currently in its 5th edition.[2] The book has drawn criticism from historians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pink_Swastika


For the record, Scott Lively who co-authored that book is one of the Evangelicals responsible for creating Uganda's "Kill the Gays" bill, and both him and Kevin Abrams blame gays for the Nazi regime and their atrocities.

I didn't know that. I'll check this out.

 

[Truthfrees]

But you seem to be saying God doesn't accept gays as they are since you claim he views homosexuality as sinful and evil. Yet, I believe even Jesus said that people like gays are born that way.

Well to clarify what I mean when I say God asks us not to have sexual relationships with the same sex, I'd have to say that:
1. The person is acceptable to God,
2. God asks us to behave in certain ways.
3. This is true of anger, hatred, cruelty, selfishness, murder, etc.

So I don't excuse any behavior God asks us to cease and desist, or excuse any failure to do the good things God asks us to do (forgive, love, be kind).

EG. If God asks us to speak the truth in love, a hateful person is still accepted by God, but the behavior definitely needs to be addressed. The behavior is out of line with God's instructions for right living.

If I made any word choices that give the impression I think GLBTs are unacceptable to God, I will change them if you point them out.

GLBT are acceptable to God as they are just as I am acceptable to God as I am.

But all of us need to change some things. Not to be acceptable, but just to line up with God's way of living.

My interpretation on what scripture says about certain sexual behavior differs from yours, but I agree with you totally on what scripture says about walking in love toward everyone.

Before I came to this forum, I was disassociating the people from the behavior.

IOW, I was talking only about the behavior, not about the person.

Now that I'm thinking about the "human being" rather than the label GLBT, I'm choosing my words differently, just as I do with family situations.

In family situations I think of the value of the human being first, and the behavior issue 2nd.

I now have the "family" mentality toward the GLBT believers since reading the posts here.

 

[Hetta]

This is true of anger, hatred, cruelty, selfishness, murder, etc.

These are bad things. Love isn't bad.

 

[Truthfrees]

These are bad things. Love isn't bad.

Agreed.

 

[Marius27]

Well to clarify what I mean when I say God asks us not to have sexual relationships with the same sex, I'd have to say that:
1. The person is acceptable to God,
2. God asks us to behave in certain ways.
3. This is true of anger, hatred, cruelty, selfishness, murder, etc.

So I don't excuse any behavior God asks us to cease and desist, or excuse any failure to do the good things God asks us to do (forgive, love, be kind).

Does God actually ask us to cease that behavior? Leviticus isn't applicable, because we're not Ancient Israelites and it never refers to gay women. Romans is clearly discussing pagan idolatry, and Augustine said it refers to heterosexuals. Corinthians is a corrupt translation. What's left?

And let's say God does want us to cease same-sex relationships. What then is your solution for gay people? What would you say to a gay person who desperately needs and wants a loving relationship, companionship, emotional and physical intimacy, etc. What's the acceptable choice for them?

 

[RC1970]

Does God actually ask us to cease that behavior? Leviticus isn't applicable, because we're not Ancient Israelites and it never refers to gay women. Romans is clearly discussing pagan idolatry, and Augustine said it refers to heterosexuals. Corinthians is a corrupt translation. What's left?

And let's say God does want us to cease same-sex relationships. What then is your solution for gay people? What would you say to a gay person who desperately needs and wants a loving relationship, companionship, emotional and physical intimacy, etc. What's the acceptable choice for them?

"Then Jesus told his disciples, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?'" ~ Matthew 16:24-25

 

[Truthfrees]

Does God actually ask us to cease that behavior? Leviticus isn't applicable, because we're not Ancient Israelites and it never refers to gay women. Romans is clearly discussing pagan idolatry, and Augustine said it refers to heterosexuals. Corinthians is a corrupt translation. What's left?

And let's say God does want us to cease same-sex relationships. What then is your solution for gay people? What would you say to a gay person who desperately needs and wants a loving relationship, companionship, emotional and physical intimacy, etc. What's the acceptable choice for them?

The previous post about denying yourself and following Jesus is the way Conseratives deal with desires that don't match scriptural directives.

EG. I was born selfish like we all are, and learned from God and scripture to put aside what I want (for the sake of the happiness of others).

Of course I'm still learning, which is why family and friends can still find something I need to change.

I've had many struggles all through life with my desires NOT matching scripture.

I was tormented by these situations until I got God's help with each situation.

Usually it ended up with me saying "God, I'm done here. I can't control myself (thoughts, feelings, behaviors, motives, etc) so I'm through with me. Please do something to change me inside and out so that I match your will".

2 ME's FIGHTING
I noticed in every struggle I had, there was 2 parts of me fighting each other. One part of me wants to do things God's way, the other part of me (flesh, mind, emotions, etc) wants something that contradicts scripture and seriously wants what it wants.

It felt like there were 2 "me"s.

I asked God what was going on and He helped me decide to choose to side with the part of me that agreed with God, and get God's help with the part of me that didn't want to do what God said.

This really isn't as easy as it may sound, but it's the only way I found to get free from a struggle with something that not only contradicts scripture, but also seems unchangeable in me.

ME FIGHTING GOD
Before I became aware of the 2 me's fighting, I used to think I was fighting God. This REALLY made the struggle worse, because that meant that perhaps I didn't love God enough to obey Him. John 14:15

When I thought I was fighting God, I'd have seriously tortuous struggles that lasted years sometimes.

In this state I came to point of deciding I don't care anymore about what I want. I just want the struggle to end. It felt like I gave up on my right to have what I want, to surrender FULLY to what God wants, and get God's help to do what He wants.

When I did this it felt like a permanent death or loss at first, but very soon, my life improved in ways unimaginable because I now was doing what God wanted.

ONLY GOD CAN HELP
Now it's important to note that all my struggles were private. No one but God knew what anti-scripture struggles I had. I didn't have to face anyone but God.

This helped tremendously, because sometimes people judge us, offend us, and then we dig our heels in and decide to show them I'm every bit as good as they are just as I am. Which is true, we're all equal, but people's judgements can interfere with our desire to change and do what God wants.

GOD DOESN'T FORCE ANYONE
My family and friends are all the time pointing out "inconsistencies" in my life, but they've learned to not force me to change, because force (nagging, bullying) hinders me. They now simply say "scripture says this, but you're doing that".

Each time I can choose to do what I want, or I can ask God what's going on, and get His help to do what He says to do. Every time I get God's help to do things His way, everyone around me is much happier. God never forces me to change. He waits for me to decide I want to change, and then He's there helping me all the way through.

THINK OF MYSELF
Sometimes the devil tempts me to forget everyone else and do what I want, but I did that for years, and it doesn't work nearly as well as doing things God's way, which is: think of others and bless others by doing what God says with my life (Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23), and God will bless me.

 

[Marius27]

The previous post about denying yourself and following Jesus is the way Conseratives deal with desires that don't match scriptural directives.

But that doesn't solve the issue for gays. Following Jesus won't remove the need for companionship for the vast majority of people. And if that were the solution, why don't all heterosexuals deny themselves, follow Jesus, and commit to celibacy? Paul says he wishes they all would.

And many people have begged God to change and not be gay. He always say no. Those feelings never change. You say God doesn't force anyone, but gays are forced to be celibate or go to hell. Most people can't handle celibacy. It's a rare gift.

 

[Truthfrees]

Does God actually ask us to cease that behavior? Leviticus isn't applicable, because we're not Ancient Israelites and it never refers to gay women. Romans is clearly discussing pagan idolatry, and Augustine said it refers to heterosexuals. Corinthians is a corrupt translation. What's left?

And let's say God does want us to cease same-sex relationships. What then is your solution for gay people? What would you say to a gay person who desperately needs and wants a loving relationship, companionship, emotional and physical intimacy, etc. What's the acceptable choice for them?

I'm thinking about your 1st paragraph. I'll reply when I have something substantial to contribute on the excellent points you raised.

About the 2nd paragraph:

I know for sure God doesn't want anyone to suffer. God wants people to have a happy fulfilled productive life.

People cause other people to suffer, God doesn't. Cruel hateful people can create isolation, depression, hopelessness in their victims. Sexual predators can create sexual confusion in their victims. Controlling abusive people can create weakness and fear in their victims. Demanding unloving neglectful people can create identity confusion in their victims. Ungodly television and media can create confusion and unscriptural expectations in their victims. Any kind of violence can cause emotional disorders in their victims. Proverbs 23:7

IOW, almost every issue any one of us has, came from some source other than God. But God can help us undo the effects of these sins other people perpetrated against us.

I believe the 1st thing is the need for a safe zone where someone loves us just as we are.

The 2nd thing might be someone who's gifted by God to INSPIRE (not badger) us to grow stronger in God's best for us.

The 3rd thing might be to pray for the person, because whatever issue they're dealing with is most likely rooted in a significant trauma to their life, usually when they were young impressionable vulnerable helpless.

The 4th thing might be to only speak to the person about their issue IF God directs a fully loving expression of truth. Truth told at the wrong time, the wrong words, the wrong attitude will be just as harmful as the initial trauma that caused the person's issue in the 1st place. IT's probably better to pray and be silent until God gives clear direction to say anything, which I think might be what I should do here.

I'm here to find out what I can do to help turn hatred away from GLBTs.

My conservative scripture interpretation might not help the end goal.

If you want me to discuss the scriptures with you I will, but I would really ask that you point me in the direction of the attacks coming against you so that I can take action in stopping it.

The conservative interpretation of scripture isn't going to be changing in the near future, but the conservative understanding of "hate the sin, love the sinner" can be used immediately to help conservatives see what they're doing wrong.

 

[Truthfrees]

But that doesn't solve the issue for gays. Following Jesus won't remove the need for companionship for the vast majority of people. And if that were the solution, why don't all heterosexuals deny themselves, follow Jesus, and commit to celibacy? Paul says he wishes they all would.

And many people have begged God to change and not be gay. He always say no. Those feelings never change. You say God doesn't force anyone, but gays are forced to be celibate or go to hell. Most people can't handle celibacy. It's a rare gift.

Yes. Very good points. Any heterosexual who wants to CONTINUE to disobey God's sexual instructions has to find a way around the clear scripture instructions.

But so do angry hateful people. If they want to continue to disobey God's instructions to love and be kind, they have to make some excuse too.

That's why we all have issues of our own to deal with, and really should be so busy dealing with the log in our own eye that we have no time to be poking the other guy in the eye looking for a speck.

So the hatred being expressed against GLBTs is wrong and needs to stop.

 

[Truthfrees]

And many people have begged God to change and not be gay. He always say no. Those feelings never change. You say God doesn't force anyone, but gays are forced to be celibate or go to hell. Most people can't handle celibacy. It's a rare gift.

I've heard many stories of people not having their feelings change, but I've haven't heard anyone say God told them no. Unless you mean their feelings did not change which equates to a no.

I've had extensive experience in my life with my feelings being changed by God.

Short testimony is that when I'm stressed, fearful, angry, upset, and I ask God to do something for me, like change my feelings, it doesn't happen.

When I have scripture foundations, peace, understanding from God on how to pray, I get much better results.

Faith is a fragile thing that needs scripture help to be strong.

One of the best things I do now is something Smith Wigglesworth said when he raised the dead by the power of God.

He said when he lacked the faith, he reached up and got God's faith.

Now when I have a situation I reach up and get God's motive, God's heart, God's emotions, God's thoughts, God's faith, etc.

I actually find that any ability of mine is usually insufficient and I really just need to get God's ability to do most anything.

 

[Truthfrees]

Swastika has been removed.

 

[Marius27]

I've heard many stories of people not having their feelings change, but I've haven't heard anyone say God told them no. Unless you mean their feelings did not change which equates to a no.

I guess I'm more so referring to they get no indication from God that he will change their feelings. Basically a, this is the way you're made feeling, accept it.

Keep in mind, Exodus International (the largest Ex-gay religious organization) closed with apologies by the President, because none of their members ever changed their orientation and they admitted they caused a lot of harm to people trying to do so.

 

[AceHero]

I think you would have to see some of the posts that are directed at Marius to understand the kind of hatred he is talking about. The thread that existed to discuss the new "married" icons was a typical example. I have watched the spiraling down into hatred this past year, and it has moved me from calling myself a Christian to not being sure about my beliefs any longer. Yes, I believe in a God and Christ, but I don't want to be allied with the kind of people who use their standing as a Christ follower to expound hatefulness towards others.

I noticed that you changed your faith label. I'm glad you still call yourself a follower. I can certainly understand the desire to not be associated with the loudest people in our faith: those that use Christ to demean others.

I wonder how a God of love can transform, for them, into a hateful bully. I want nothing of that, or them. We "liberal" Christians are absolutely in the minority on this forum, but we seem to be growing in number and that's a good thing.

There are a lot of liberal Christians, but I think we tend to not be reactionary. We keep our faith to ourselves. Jesus said He didn't come to condemn the world. The fundamentalists use their words to condemn others. It's up to us progressives to use our actions to help transform others.

Attitudes are changing, and I believe that in time the negative individuals will be in the minority, and the rest of the world will realize that it needs to just get on with its own business, its own marriages, its own sexuality, and stop trying to police everyone else! I'll probably be dead by then, but oh well.

Millennials sure seem to be more progressive than Generation X, but at the same time I think my generation is far less church-going than people in other age brackets. It doesn't help when the major evangelical megachurches attract young people with all the light and noise (I'm certainly guilty of that), while progressive mainline churches struggle to fill seats with people my age.

 

[Truthfrees]

I guess I'm more so referring to they get no indication from God that he will change their feelings. Basically a, this is the way you're made feeling, accept it.

Keep in mind, Exodus International (the largest Ex-gay religious organization) closed with apologies by the President, because none of their members ever changed their orientation and they admitted they caused a lot of harm to people trying to do so.

I know of EI but I'm not aware of their method. IF they used thought reform, cognitive therapy, I can see the shortcomings in that method would cause failure.

I've been a part of many different Christian groups in my life and most of them put the responsibility on you to perform, conform, reform, with only a unexplained mention of "ask God for help". That really put more pressure on me, and didn't get me free from anything.

As a Conservative Christian, I knew that I was still obligated to God to obey Him, so at one point I got angry with God because I thought He wasn't helping me do what He wanted me to do.

In the end when I "friended" God and learned to side with Him, and get Him to work inside me to enable me to both WANT to do what pleases Him AND do it by His power not my own, did my desires, feelings, thoughts, start to truly change. Philippians 2:13

In the end a lot of suffering is caused because we are NOT taught properly how to connect with God and use HIS ability rather than our own. Colossians 1:29

From my experience all I can say is: don't give up BUT don't put pressure on yourself.

Grow in the experience of God's love for you. With faith in God's love for you, ask God how to do what He says.

Perhaps a lot of the failure is also associated with the pressure people put on you to change.

As I said, my success might be due partly to the fact that no one but God knew my struggles, so I only had HIS kindness, love, help to change.

I honestly find people can sometimes be more of a hindrance than a help when I'm trying to change.

God is also the Only One with sufficient wisdom and power to help me on the big issues. IOW, people have NO power to give me (other than praying for me).