The Gap and The Sumer Creation Myth

genez said:

Each race has within it different languages.

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No, God scattered the people gathered at Babel by giving various languages, so that people congregated with others that they could communicate with.

This in NO WAY creates "races". Language has NOTHING to do with the various ethnicities, which is the correct word anyway.

Race had to do with their natural habitat.

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Again, no it doesn't. People can live anywhere. That doesn't change their ethnicity.

I have an adopted daughter from S Korea. Bringing her to the US didn't change any of her physical characteristics. Which is what you seem to believe.

God did not make the black race to live in Igloos and hunt caribou.

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There is no such thing as a "black race". There are people who share physical characteristics collectively known as being "black" even though there are many shades, from light brown to total black.

Again, what people call "race" has to do with physical characteristics, NOT what language they speak or where they live.

How many African languages are there?

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I don't care. It's irrelevant.

How many Oriental languages?

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I don't care. It's irrelevant.

Did God move the Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc people to the continent of Africa? No. If He did? They would have not done well in that eco system and climate.

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Totally irrelevant. Neither language or location "creates" a race. bogus.

Races were the result of God first separating man by languages.

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What people call "race" is determined by physical characteristics.

Haven't you ever heard the words "white race", "black race" "brown race", "yellow race"? That's how people are cagegorized. But there aren't different races among humans, there are different physical characteristics, which is an ETHNIC difference only.

They did not see differences to separate in their appearance until later.

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How do you know that? You don't. I believe God gave the various different languages to those who had similar appearances.

Do you think everyone looked alike at Babel? Why?

God had to move each race to where He not only wanted them adapted physically to live... but to stay as well.

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A whole lot of presumption going on.

Stay until He deemed fit to begin integrating mankind according to His plan.

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His plan has been in effect from Adam. He always knew that He would scatter people by language. And that didn't "create" any race.

So again, there is ONLY the human race and the angelic race.

I have had 2 dogs in my life, one a lab retriever and the other a schnauzer. Are those 2 different races of dog? Of course not. All dogs are in the same category, but there are many variations of "dog".

Same for humans, and you haven't proven your theory.

The only "racist" around is Satan, who hates humanity. He resents that God created another race of intelligent beings to have relationship with.

No Christian should EVER use the word "racist" since it actually attacks Genesis and God's plan for mankind.

I love the look on people's faces when I explain to them that there is only 1 race, the human race, and note that everyone came from Adam.

Quite an icebreaker, actually.

genez said:

This time around God declared to all the angels that He will make man's soul in His image.

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You have misread the Bible. No where does it say what you claim. God said "let US make man in OUR image". God wasn't speaking to any angel when He said that.

The Trinity was speaking among themselves.

genez said:

Each race has within it different languages. Race had to do with their natural habitat. God did not make the black race to live in Igloos and hunt caribou. They were not genetically adapted by God for that type of living. But, if God wanted to? He could have designated Eskimos to speak Swahili.

How many African languages are there? How many Oriental languages? Did God move the Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc people to the continent of Africa? No. If He did? They would have not done well in that eco system and climate.

Races were the result of God first separating man by languages. They did not see differences to separate in their appearance until later. God had to move each race to where He not only wanted them adapted physically to live... but to stay as well. Stay until He deemed fit to begin integrating mankind according to His plan.

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Even so, only Noah and his family survived the flood, plus any animals aboard the ark. All of mankind since then up to now came through Noah's family, obviously. Or do you deny that only Noah and his family survived the flood, and instead think other humans survived it as well? Did Noah have one son that was Chinese, another son that was Japanese, etc, so on and so on? Or maybe some of the women aboard the ark, some were Chinese, some were Japanese, some were Black Africans?

genez said:

When did the sun appear to provide light? Day one? No!

Its not as simple as you wish it to be.

All animals have souls. Nephesh.

This time around God declared to all the angels that He will make man's soul in His image. Thus raising the level of the human soul to something beyond being an animal.

The Prehistoric man was a genius in his abilities compared to the regular animals.. but not possessing a soul in God's image. Look how a spider weaves its web. Genius ability. Look how honey bees make honey their comb. Genius in ability. Coincidence?

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Until you are ready to prove what you allege, with Scripture, you're spouting fantasy in the meantime. If these soulless humans or any humans existed on the earth prior to creation day 1, God would have no reason to not at least inform us about their existence. Instead God deceives some of us by having us wrongly think there was no such thing as mankind until He made that possible on day 6. Mankind constists of both male and female. Mankind is not even possible unless both genders exist.

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish(male') the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Those who propose a gap often argue 'replinish' proves a gap. Yet that same Hebrew word male' is also used in the following.


Genesis 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill(male') the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.


If we look at the previous verse we see this.

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


The text says created, which means they didn't even exist until God created them first. thus they wouldn't be something that is getting refilled again because something happened to the prior ones.. And it is these great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, plus very winged fowl after his kind, that God is applying this to----and fill(male') the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. IOW, produce more kinds like yourselves through the act of procreation. And that is what I take male' to mean in Genesis 1:28 as well---fill the earth with more mankind via the act of procreation.

Yet, some will still argue Genesis 9:1 proves that replenish means what they propose it means in Genesis 1:28.

Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

In this case it does mean to refill the earth again. But this can be Biblically explained since a flood wiped out all of mankind except for a select few, thus the need to refill the earth again with more humans. As to Genesis 1:28, there is nothing in the Bible that explains that the earth needs to be refilled again with more humans because something happened to all of the previous humans.

In order for there to even be any previous humans, one first has to be able to explain using Scripture to back it up, how they came to be to begin with and what methods God used to make them. Where can one read about that in the Bible? Where can one read in the Bible that women already existed before God formed one out of Adam's rib? Because without women the multiplying of mankind is impossible.

DavidPT said:

Even so, only Noah and his family survived the flood, plus any animals aboard the ark. All of mankind since then up to now came through Noah's family, obviously. Or do you deny that only Noah and his family survived the flood, and instead think other humans survived it as well? Did Noah have one son that was Chinese, another son that was Japanese, etc, so on and so on? Or maybe some of the women aboard the ark, some were Chinese, some were Japanese, some were Black Africans?

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Geneticists say that the specific characteristics of the various ethnicities are present in all people. But they are not dominant in those who don't manifest them.

So, all the DNA that determines physical characteristics were present in Adam when God created him. Therefore, just one race. Many ethnicities.

FreeGrace2 said:

Geneticists say that the specific characteristics of the various ethnicities are present in all people. But they are not dominant in those who don't manifest them.

So, all the DNA that determines physical characteristics were present in Adam when God created him. Therefore, just one race. Many ethnicities.

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This is probably one subject involving this discussion that I'm likely to find a lot a agreement with you about. I agree, there is only one race, the human race.

DavidPT said:

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish(male') the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Those who propose a gap often argue 'replinish' proves a gap.

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The evidence of a time gap is found in a proper translation of v2.

In order for there to even be any previous humans, one first has to be able to explain using Scripture to back it up, how they came to be to begin with and what methods God used to make them.

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I don't believe in previous humans. I guess those who do propose that are going on the evidence of very old fossils of what looks similar to humans. I've read about "humanoids", who appeared human-like but were animals. Monkeys, etc would fit that description.

Regardless, all that is speculation and theory. I stick with the words of Scripture, and a legitimate translation of v.2 is, "but the earth became tohu-(wasteland)".

The traditional translation of v.2 is "and the earth was tohu". But that directly contradicts Isa 45:18, which says "God did NOT create the earth tohu".

So, either He did create the earth tohu, or He didn't create the earth tohu.

v.2 says the earth became tohu. That's all I need to believe.

The best understanding of Genesis 1 is that the 6 days were of restoration.

And that fits Heb 11:3 very well.

By faith we understand that the universe was formed [katartizo] at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

This word is translated as "mended their nets" in 2 gospel passages, and as "restore" in Gal 6:1 - Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.

Davy said:

"Behemoth" of Job 40...

Job 40:15-23
15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

19 He is the chief of the ways of God: He That made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.

21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.

22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.

23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
KJV

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Sounds like a hippopotamus to me.

Davy said:

"Behemoth" of Job 40...

Job 40:15-23
15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

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Was Moses present in Genesis One? No, he was not.

Yet he spoke of what was prehistoric with great accuracy.

He was given the spirit of prophesy. Prophesy can go beyond simply foretelling the future. It can speak accurately of what happened in the past.

Keep in mind that the ordeal and testing of Job was to the angels like watching a God produced " hit movie" of the century. When they heard God speak (not Job speaking) God had no problem of speaking of realities that He knew the angels could relate to.

God even speaks of the original creation of the planet earth. He said it began with angels singing and cheering.

Yet? We get none of that celebrating seen in Genesis One.


“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

Job 38:4-7

sawdust said:

Sounds like a hippopotamus to me.

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LOL. Sounds like a kangaroo to me since kangaroos are known for their sizeble tails and that hippos aren't---He moveth his tail like a cedar. I'm not being serious though, since this would be ignoring the other details about the creature in question, I'm just pointing out that you have to consider all of the details, not just some. And one of the details is---He moveth his tail like a cedar. That makes zero sense in regards to hippos. Also, try and do a search on Google for What does a hippo use its tail for?

genez said:

Was Moses present in Genesis One? No, he was not.

Yet he spoke of what was prehistoric with great accuracy.

He was given the spirit of prophesy. Prophesy can go beyond simply foretelling the future. It can speak accurately of what happened in the past.

Keep in mind that the ordeal and testing of Job was to the angels like watching a God produced " hit movie" of the century. When they heard God speak (not Job speaking) God had no problem of speaking of realities that He knew the angels could relate to.

God even speaks of the original creation of the planet earth. Began with angels singing and cheering. We get none of that celebrating in Genesis One.


“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

Job 38:4-7

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Whatever is being described in those verses in Job 40 that you were initially responding about, it cannot be denied when these creatures are living among us.

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

If God made them alongside man---which I made with thee---obviously, they have to exist after man was made, thus live among man. And since Job was someone born after the 6 days of creation, man here has to be meaning men like Job, and not men that allegedly existed before creation day 1.

If Job 40 is describing a dinosaur of some kind, what more proof does one need that dinosaurs have lived among men from the time of creation day 6 until God wiped them out during Noah's flood?

DavidPT said:

LOL. Sounds like a kangaroo to me since kangaroos are known for their sizeble tails and that hippos aren't---He moveth his tail like a cedar. I'm not being serious though, since this would be ignoring the other details about the creature in question, I'm just pointing out that you have to consider all of the details, not just some. And one of the details is---He moveth his tail like a cedar. That makes zero sense in regards to hippos. Also, try and do a search on Google for What does a hippo use its tail for?

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You never seen a cedar whip around in the wind?
I did look at all the attributes. Seems you only looked at one.

ps. You obviously know nothing about kangaroos if you think that description is anything like a roo.

pps. it says it moves like, not looks like so size doesn't matter after all.

FreeGrace2 said:

You have misread the Bible. No where does it say what you claim. God said "let US make man in OUR image". God wasn't speaking to any angel when He said that.

The Trinity was speaking among themselves.

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Says you. Its does not have to mean what the context tells us can mean something different. That is, having the context established based up knowledge and truth by grace.

Please, stay where you are. Not everyone is cut out to be a pioneer. Jesus was our Pioneer of our faith. Its a part of His nature for those He so leads into action in times of need for new offensives against evil who has mastered past "tradition" and conventional thinking that he learns to fence in with societal conditioning by means of lies he devised that conventional thinking can not overcome any longer.

Please...stay where you are. We must leave the pioneering to those God has chosen.


We are told to be "imitators" of Christ. (Eph 5:1-2) Those for whom He calls to become pioneers in their day, will need to break away from the old "established" errors of the static churches. And, as a result. they will receive scorn from some of the traditional conventional thinkers... To do so? Like Christ, they must take up and endure their own crosses in order to follow the Lord.



That's as simple as I can make it.

DavidPT said:

LOL. Sounds like a kangaroo to me since kangaroos are known for their sizeble tails and that hippos aren't---He moveth his tail like a cedar. I'm not being serious though, since this would be ignoring the other details about the creature in question, I'm just pointing out that you have to consider all of the details, not just some. And one of the details is---He moveth his tail like a cedar. That makes zero sense in regards to hippos. Also, try and do a search on Google for What does a hippo use its tail for?

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A dinosaur was most likely being described. Just like the prophet Moses was able to describe the prehistoric times in Genesis 1 while Moses was not alive then.

Moses was not living when the earth was re-established in Genesis One.

Prophesy's Spirit is not limited to time. For the eternal Spirit sees that past and future as clearly as we see the present.


Keep in mind.. To the angels? Job's ordeal was like them going to a sports bar and watching a "world championship game." For all the angels were watching Satan's challenge to the Lord on the field of "Job's soul."

"Will Satan get Job to curse the Lord to his face?"

"How many more rounds to this fight?"

... I wonder what kind of refreshments the angels served while the fight was on...

DavidPT said:

Whatever is being described in those verses in Job 40 that you were initially responding about, it cannot be denied when these creatures are living among us.

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

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Did not God make all things?

It does not say, maketh to be with thee.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You have misread the Bible. No where does it say what you claim. God said "let US make man in OUR image". God wasn't speaking to any angel when He said that.

The Trinity was speaking among themselves.

genez said:

Says you.

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OK, if you insist.

Gen 1:26 - Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Gen 1:27 - So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

There. Says the Bible.

Its does not have to mean what the context tells us can mean something different. That is, having the context established based up knowledge and truth by grace.

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How does the context of ch 1 have anything to do with creation of man?

Please, stay where you are.

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Thank you very much, but I'm content to move where I want.

Not everyone is cut out to be a pioneer. Jesus was our Pioneer of our faith.

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I prefer biblical language. He is the author and finisher of our faith. Heb 12:2

The word "pioneer" sounds a bit outdated.

Please...stay where you are.

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Again, I'll move where I want to.

We must leave the pioneering to those God has chosen.

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Do you have a verse that says God elects pioneers?

And, where does that leave you?

Only 4 out of about 28 translations in biblehub.com had "pioneer" in their translations. Most used "author", "founder", "originator" and "source".

Strong's Concordance
archégos: founder, leader
Original Word: ἀρχηγός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: archégos
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay-gos')
Definition: founder, leader
Usage: originator, author, founder, prince, leader.

FreeGrace2 said:

Gen 1:26 - Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

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Angels, too, were created in His image.

Prehistoric man was not.

The announcement in Genesis 1:26 was to let the angels know that this "man" is not to be like the last "man." This one will be like themselves in their ability to know God and reason about and with God. Animals can do no such thing.

FreeGrace2 said:

Only 4 out of about 28 translations in biblehub.com had "pioneer" in their translations. Most used "author", "founder", "originator" and "source".​

Strong's Concordance
archégos: founder, leader
Original Word: ἀρχηγός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: archégos
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay-gos')
Definition: founder, leader
Usage: originator, author, founder, prince, leader.

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Is a pioneer a originator? Is a pioneer a leader? Is a pioneer an originator? A pioneer is all those things.



The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon


Strong's Number: 747 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
arcegoß from (746) and (71)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Archegos 1:487,81
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar-khay-gos' Adjective
Definition

1. the chief leader, prince
   1. of Christ
2. one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer
3. the author

Jesus became the prototype Christian! That is why we are to be "imitators" of Christ.

This was the spiritual system that Jesus pioneered that dull legalists never can never grasp and comprehend....


Yet a time is coming (when the church appears) and has now come (with Christ showing the way) when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” John 4:23-24


Prior to Jesus no one was walking in the constant filling of the Spirit empowered to walk in Truth. Instead, they had to be "obedient" to will their flesh to conform to the Law.

Jesus pioneered the Way for us to follow by being confronted by evil to tempt him to not live according to God's character.

Jesus had to know the Scriptures completely and to remain without sin to keep the Spirit empowering Him. We are now to do likewise... But, unlike Christ, will all fail at times. And, our ability to know the Word is slow compared to His sinless genius mind.
Some of us fail habitually because our pride makes us arrogant when we see someone having authority that we ourselves do not possess. That authority granted by God to lead the humble to learning more of His Way. Pride is the prick in their balloon that keeps them from getting airborne to overcoming the world in their thinking.

Competitiveness destroys one's chances of seeing a real victory.. In the name of securing a victory in the energy of one's flesh.

grace and peace.......

genez said:

Did not God make all things?

It does not say, maketh to be with thee.

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In the post you are addressing I indicated that this is proof dinosaurs got wiped out in Noah's flood. After rethinking that, that doesn't seem logical, and here is why.

Job would have lived post the flood. There were no tvs back then with channels like National Geographic, no internet to research things on, etc. Why then would God be discussing an animal with Job, as if Job was already familiar with them, but that Job wasn't even aware of because these didn't exist during his days? That sounds contradictory. If meaning a dinosaur type creature, it doesn't look like they got entirely wiped out in the flood after all if Job was familiar with them at the time.


Pretty much every scholar tends to agree with the text, concerning the animal described in Job 40, that this animal was made when man was made during the days of creation. What they don't all don't agree upon is what type of animal is meant.

DavidPT said:

Whatever is being described in those verses in Job 40 that you were initially responding about, it cannot be denied when these creatures are living among us.

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

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It does not say.. "he eateth grass with the ox."

Yet? In the future we are told the wolf will eat straw WITH the lamb.