LDS The Futile Attempt by Mormons to Earn God's Grace

[BigDaddy4]

We do not exclude others, they exclude themselves. It is not man made criteria. The Bible teaches this:

(New Testament | Matthew 7:11 - 14)

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

(New Testament | Matthew 7:1 - 2)

1 JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Jesus did not judge anyone on their "worthiness" to participate in religious rituals. He welcomed everyone. In fact, he chastised the Pharisees for making up rules to exclude people. Just like the LDS. That's the irony of your judgement scripture - they who judge will be judged accordingly. LDS bishops beware!

 

[Rescued One]

Mormons will not allow any Baptist, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Mennonite, or Anglican in their temples when those persons' loved ones are being married.


20 [The Son of God]He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
Joseph Smith—History 1

Doctrine and Covenants 84
74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am.


Our beliefs and actions may differ from those of others, but we, as good Christians, do not criticize other religions or their adherents. “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”
Joseph B. Wirthlin
Christians in Belief and Action


This revelation clearly informs us that any man or woman, not only those in the days of Noah, who heard the Gospel and rejected it, but in this day any man or woman who has had a good chance to have heard the Gospel to receive it and embrace it and enjoy its blessings and privileges, who lived during their life in absolute indifference to these things, ignoring it, and neglected it, need not hope or anticipate that when they are dead the work can be done for them and they gain celestial glory. Don't you Latter-day Saints get the notion that a man or woman can live in defiance or total indifference, having had a good chance -- not a casual chance or opportunity -- and when they die you can go and do the work for that individual and have them receive every blessing that the faithful ones are entitled to. If that becomes the doctrine of the Church we will be worse than the Catholics who believe that you can pray a man out of purgatory. But they charge for it and we don't, so we would be more foolish than they. (Three Degrees of Glory, p.26)
Melvin J. Ballard
http://www.shields-research.org/Gen...llard_Melvin_J/01Three_Degrees_cap400x100.pdf

Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial bidy, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdom, be just what the so-called Christian world
expects us all to be --- neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:288
Full text of "Doctrines of Salvation Volume 2 - Joseph Fielding Smith"

 

[He is the way]

Jesus did not judge anyone on their "worthiness" to participate in religious rituals. He welcomed everyone. In fact, he chastised the Pharisees for making up rules to exclude people. Just like the LDS. That's the irony of your judgement scripture - they who judge will be judged accordingly. LDS bishops beware!

Have you read the book of Judges?

(Old Testament | 1 Kings 3:28)

28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment.

 

[He is the way]

Mormons will not allow any Baptist, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Mennonite, or Anglican in their temples when those persons' loved ones are being married.


20 [The Son of God]He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
Joseph Smith—History 1

Doctrine and Covenants 84
74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am.


Our beliefs and actions may differ from those of others, but we, as good Christians, do not criticize other religions or their adherents. “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”
Joseph B. Wirthlin
Christians in Belief and Action


This revelation clearly informs us that any man or woman, not only those in the days of Noah, who heard the Gospel and rejected it, but in this day any man or woman who has had a good chance to have heard the Gospel to receive it and embrace it and enjoy its blessings and privileges, who lived during their life in absolute indifference to these things, ignoring it, and neglected it, need not hope or anticipate that when they are dead the work can be done for them and they gain celestial glory. Don't you Latter-day Saints get the notion that a man or woman can live in defiance or total indifference, having had a good chance -- not a casual chance or opportunity -- and when they die you can go and do the work for that individual and have them receive every blessing that the faithful ones are entitled to. If that becomes the doctrine of the Church we will be worse than the Catholics who believe that you can pray a man out of purgatory. But they charge for it and we don't, so we would be more foolish than they. (Three Degrees of Glory, p.26)
Melvin J. Ballard
http://www.shields-research.org/Gen...llard_Melvin_J/01Three_Degrees_cap400x100.pdf

Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial bidy, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdom, be just what the so-called Christian world
expects us all to be --- neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:288
Full text of "Doctrines of Salvation Volume 2 - Joseph Fielding Smith"

You said: "Mormons will not allow any Baptist, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Mennonite, or Anglican in their temples when those persons' loved ones are being married."

Do you believe that Jesus allowed the money changers back into the temple? Jesus threw them out of the temple. He said:
(New Testament | John 2:16)

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

There were others who were not allowed in the temple.

 

[Ran77]

Do you even realize what quote you were responding to that started this conversation?

Yes. I do.

 

[Ran77]

Oops. Only if we are talking about judgement day, the end times, or judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Which we are not. OOOPS!

I stated it was problematic. I didn't place it into a specific category of theological discussion. The funny part is that your statement agrees that it is problematic.

Once again, we have agreed on something and you continue as if that is grounds for argument. Strange.

 

[Ran77]

Jesus did not judge anyone on their "worthiness" to participate in religious rituals.

Do you have scripture to back up this claim?

 

[BigDaddy4]

Have you read the book of Judges?

(Old Testament | 1 Kings 3:28)

28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment.

Another irrelevant drive-by scripture posting?

 

[BigDaddy4]

I stated it was problematic. I didn't place it into a specific category of theological discussion. The funny part is that your statement agrees that it is problematic.

Once again, we have agreed on something and you continue as if that is grounds for argument. Strange.

We agree that you post scripture that is irrelevant to the discussion and you call it "Strange."?? That is strange.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Do you have scripture to back up this claim?

Strange request. Do you have scripture that says he did? I cannot think of anywhere Jesus refused to allow someone to participate in a religious ritual based on their "worthiness".

 

[He is the way]

Another irrelevant drive-by scripture posting?

God did set up judges and He does judge through them. He did not want money changers in His Holy House. He expects reverence in Holy places:

(New Testament | Acts 7:33)

33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.
You don't seem to understand what God expects.

 

[Ran77]

We agree that you post scripture that is irrelevant to the discussion and you call it "Strange."?? That is strange.

We don't agree on that. You have posted a false statement. My comments have been accurate and true. I can point to exactly where in this discussion you have agreed with what I posted. I challenge you to do the same. Where have I stated, or indicated, that the scripture I post is irrelevant to the discussion? Relying on false statements will not help you to prove any point.

 

[Ran77]

Strange request. Do you have scripture that says he did? I cannot think of anywhere Jesus refused to allow someone to participate in a religious ritual based on their "worthiness".

I believe that we have uncovered one of the problems here. When a request for scripture support is considered "Strange" I know that rational discussion is impossible. I also know that what is being offered is not what God has said, but the personal opinion of the poster.

 

[Peter1000]

Your claim of understanding mercy, grace, and service are according to Mormon definitions which do not align with non-Mormon understandings. Your view is defined by Joseph Smith and his religion.

“There will be a wise and just God to sit in judgment on all men. … The wicked may prosper for a time, the rebellious may seem to profit by their transgressions, but the time is coming when, at the bar of justice, all men will be judged, ‘every man according to their works’ (Rev. 20:13). No one will ‘get by’ with anything. On that day no one will escape the penalty of his deeds, no one will fail to receive the blessings he has earned. Again, the parable of the sheep and the goats gives us assurance that there will be total justice.”
Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 305

How is that different than the covenant God had with Israel prior to Christ's sacrifice for the sins of believers?

Sorry, but our understanding of mercy, grace, and service are according to the bible as much as JS. For instance we believe Matthew 25:32-46. Do you?

 

[BigDaddy4]

God did set up judges and He does judge through them.

Please show me where he set them up to judge the worthiness to participate in a religious ritual.

He did not want money changers in His Holy House.

Were the money changers trying to participate in a religious ritual?

He expects reverence in Holy places:

Does he exclude anyone from entering into the "Holy places"?

You don't seem to understand what God expects.

You don't seem to understand how to answer a direct question with a direct answer.

 

[BigDaddy4]

We don't agree on that. You have posted a false statement. My comments have been accurate and true. I can point to exactly where in this discussion you have agreed with what I posted. I challenge you to do the same. Where have I stated, or indicated, that the scripture I post is irrelevant to the discussion? Relying on false statements will not help you to prove any point.

Interesting back track.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I believe that we have uncovered one of the problems here. When a request for scripture support is considered "Strange" I know that rational discussion is impossible. I also know that what is being offered is not what God has said, but the personal opinion of the poster.

An irrational request from an irrational person. A rational person would know that one can't provide scripture that says that Jesus didn't say something and so would not request such a thing.

 

[Rescued One]

You said: "Mormons will not allow any Baptist, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Mennonite, or Anglican in their temples when those persons' loved ones are being married."

Do you believe that Jesus allowed the money changers back into the temple? Jesus threw them out of the temple. He said:
(New Testament | John 2:16)

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

There were others who were not allowed in the temple.

Christians aren't money changers. Your temples are definitely not of God. John 2:16 has nothing to do with the LDS opinion of Christians.

 

[Rescued One]

Sorry, but our understanding of mercy, grace, and service are according to the bible as much as JS. For instance we believe Matthew 25:32-46. Do you?

I absolutely believe God's word! And I don't believe that God only shows mercy to those whom Mormons consider righteous.

 

[Ran77]

Interesting back track.

Evasion noted.