LDS The Futile Attempt by Mormons to Earn God's Grace

[Ran77]

An irrational request from an irrational person. A rational person would know that one can't provide scripture that says that Jesus didn't say something and so would not request such a thing.

Again, when a request for scripture to support a claim is considered irrational I know that rational discussion is not possible. This is then followed by name-calling. Calling me an irrational person is evidence that mature and respectful discussion is also not possible.

It appears that you don't have anything to offer me. Not civil discussion. Not better theology, either by example or by explanation.

 

[He is the way]

Please show me where he set them up to judge the worthiness to participate in a religious ritual.


Were the money changers trying to participate in a religious ritual?

Does he exclude anyone from entering into the "Holy places"?

You don't seem to understand how to answer a direct question with a direct answer.

You said: "Please show me where he set them up to judge the worthiness to participate in a religious ritual."

"To qualify for the blessings of the temple, each of us must ensure that our lives are in harmony with the teachings of the Church. Before going to the temple, you are interviewed by your bishop. In that interview you certify to him that you meet a standard of conduct relating to the holy temple. We want you to decide today that you will always maintain this standard and be worthy of the privilege of going to the house of the Lord."

From: Your Temple Recommend

(Old Testament | Exodus 19:20 - 24)

20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.
21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish.
22 And let the priests also, which come near to the LORD, sanctify themselves, lest the LORD break forth upon them.
23 And Moses said unto the LORD, The people cannot come up to mount Sinai: for thou chargedst us, saying, Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it.
24 And the LORD said unto him, Away, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest he break forth upon them.

(Old Testament | Leviticus 22:25 - 26)

25 Neither from a stranger's hand shall ye offer the bread of your God of any of these; because their corruption is in them, and blemishes be in them: they shall not be accepted for you.
26 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

You said: "Does he exclude anyone from entering into the "Holy places"?"

The answer is yes:

(Old Testament | Exodus 28:41 - 43)

41 And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.
42 And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:
43 And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.

I could add Exodus chapter 29 but it is lengthy perhaps you will read it yourself.

(Old Testament | Exodus 39:41)

41 The cloths of service to do service in the holy place, and the holy garments for Aaron the priest, and his sons' garments, to minister in the priest's office.

And there are many others. That being said anyone can go in the temple until it is dedicated.

You said: "You don't seem to understand how to answer a direct question with a direct answer."

You don't want the answer and most likely won't accept it anyway.

 

[Rescued One]

"To qualify for the blessings of the temple, each of us must ensure that our lives are in harmony with the teachings of the Church. Before going to the temple, you are interviewed by your bishop. In that interview you certify to him that you meet a standard of conduct relating to the holy temple. We want you to decide today that you will always maintain this standard and be worthy of the privilege of going to the house of the Lord."
- Mormonism

To allow Christians to attend their childrens' weddings, doesn't equate to qualifying for LDS endowments and sealings.

Being worthy of God's blessings is something humans can't make themselves worthy of. God decides whom He will bless, and a Mormon bishop or oneself can't decide that. There is only one mediator between God and man.

 

[He is the way]

"To qualify for the blessings of the temple, each of us must ensure that our lives are in harmony with the teachings of the Church. Before going to the temple, you are interviewed by your bishop. In that interview you certify to him that you meet a standard of conduct relating to the holy temple. We want you to decide today that you will always maintain this standard and be worthy of the privilege of going to the house of the Lord."
- Mormonism

To allow Christians to attend their childrens' weddings, doesn't equate to qualifying for LDS endowments and sealings.

Being worthy of God's blessings is something humans can't make themselves worthy of. God decides whom He will bless, and a Mormon bishop or oneself can't decide that. There is only one mediator between God and man.

View attachment 280010

Anyone can choose to LOVE Jesus Christ and keep the commandments. We don't need to wait for God to bless us with the ability to keep them. Job did not wait he just did it. Abraham kept the commandments too. We know very well what happens to those who lie to God:

(New Testament | Acts 5:1 - 11)

1 BUT a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

We all make our own choices.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Evasion noted.

Noting your back tracking is evasion??

 

[BigDaddy4]

Again, when a request for scripture to support a claim is considered irrational I know that rational discussion is not possible. This is then followed by name-calling. Calling me an irrational person is evidence that mature and respectful discussion is also not possible.

It appears that you don't have anything to offer me. Not civil discussion. Not better theology, either by example or by explanation.

I explained why you were irrational. Can someone prove Jesus didn't say something? No, that's irrational. I've already stated that I could not recall any examples of Jesus denying entry or participation in a religious ritual based on that persons "worthiness". Do you have something of substance that counters my statement? If you can't, then you don't have anything to offer and I will consider our interaction ended.

 

[Ran77]

I explained why you were irrational.

Even if you were correct in your claim, it is still name-calling. Anyone who has to rely on personal attacks to make their point most likely has nothing credible to offer and definitely doesn't have anything useful to me.

Can someone prove Jesus didn't say something?

I didn't ask you to prove Jesus didn't say something. That is a twisted version of what I actually asked. In other words, a misdirection or possibly a deception. I asked if you had any scripture to back up your claim. If what you stated is a doctrine given to us by Christ or one of his apostles, then there will be evidence of that in the scriptures.

It's even possible to offer a logical conclusion based on the scriptures. But not even that was given. You have nothing. Unless you have something substantial to offer, something other than personal attacks, I must conclude that continuing a dialogue with you is a waste of my time.

I've already stated that I could not recall any examples of Jesus denying entry or participation in a religious ritual based on that persons "worthiness".

Can you point out where you made this statement?

Do you have something of substance that counters my statement? If you can't, then you don't have anything to offer and I will consider our interaction ended.

Excellent.

 

[Peter1000]

Mormons will not allow any Baptist, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Mennonite, or Anglican in their temples when those persons' loved ones are being married.


20 [The Son of God]He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
Joseph Smith—History 1

Doctrine and Covenants 84
74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am.


Our beliefs and actions may differ from those of others, but we, as good Christians, do not criticize other religions or their adherents. “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”
Joseph B. Wirthlin
Christians in Belief and Action


This revelation clearly informs us that any man or woman, not only those in the days of Noah, who heard the Gospel and rejected it, but in this day any man or woman who has had a good chance to have heard the Gospel to receive it and embrace it and enjoy its blessings and privileges, who lived during their life in absolute indifference to these things, ignoring it, and neglected it, need not hope or anticipate that when they are dead the work can be done for them and they gain celestial glory. Don't you Latter-day Saints get the notion that a man or woman can live in defiance or total indifference, having had a good chance -- not a casual chance or opportunity -- and when they die you can go and do the work for that individual and have them receive every blessing that the faithful ones are entitled to. If that becomes the doctrine of the Church we will be worse than the Catholics who believe that you can pray a man out of purgatory. But they charge for it and we don't, so we would be more foolish than they. (Three Degrees of Glory, p.26)
Melvin J. Ballard
http://www.shields-research.org/Gen...llard_Melvin_J/01Three_Degrees_cap400x100.pdf

Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial bidy, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdom, be just what the so-called Christian world
expects us all to be --- neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:288
Full text of "Doctrines of Salvation Volume 2 - Joseph Fielding Smith"

We don't even allow the Mormon mother or father of a daughter who is being married in the temple if her parents does not have a recommend to go to the temple.

The point is, you have to have a recommend to get into the temple. If a baptist wants to go to the temple with their son or daughter, then all they have to do is get a recommend, and they can go.

If you reject the temple and do no want a recommend, then you cannot go to the wedding ceremony.

 

[Peter1000]

I absolutely believe God's word! And I don't believe that God only shows mercy to those whom Mormons consider righteous.

You are right. God is an entity all by himself. However, he has given the leaders of our church the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and that gives our priesthood the power to bind and loose.
Which means that if our leadership binds a marriage here on earth, God in heaven binds it in the books in heaven.

If our leadership looses a person from the church and the saving ordinances that they once took upon themselves, the God recognizes that in heaven and looses them from the book of life in heaven.

Of course repentence is available to all, and when that happens, then our leaders bind this person back into full fellowship in the church and restores all the saving ordinances and God recognizes that binding power and binds them in heaven and adds their names back into the book of life.

 

[Peter1000]

"To qualify for the blessings of the temple, each of us must ensure that our lives are in harmony with the teachings of the Church. Before going to the temple, you are interviewed by your bishop. In that interview you certify to him that you meet a standard of conduct relating to the holy temple. We want you to decide today that you will always maintain this standard and be worthy of the privilege of going to the house of the Lord."
- Mormonism

To allow Christians to attend their childrens' weddings, doesn't equate to qualifying for LDS endowments and sealings.

Being worthy of God's blessings is something humans can't make themselves worthy of. God decides whom He will bless, and a Mormon bishop or oneself can't decide that. There is only one mediator between God and man.

View attachment 280010

What kind of power do you think Jesus gave Peter when Jesus gave Peter the 'keys of the kingdom of heaven'?

Our leaders have the same power. This power must exist on earth to grow and govern the people of the Church of Jesus Christ. Jesus gave it, beause he knew he would not be here to judge all things and so he found good men to do this job, his apostles.

Same today, whether you believe it or like it or not. It is in the bible so you should believe it, if you truly think the bible is of God.

 

[Rescued One]

You are right. God is an entity all by himself. However, he has given the leaders of our church the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and that gives our priesthood the power to bind and loose.
Which means that if our leadership binds a marriage here on earth, God in heaven binds it in the books in heaven.

If our leadership looses a person from the church and the saving ordinances that they once took upon themselves, the God recognizes that in heaven and looses them from the book of life in heaven.

Of course repentence is available to all, and when that happens, then our leaders bind this person back into full fellowship in the church and restores all the saving ordinances and God recognizes that binding power and binds them in heaven and adds their names back into the book of life.

I repented:

2 Corinthians 6
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

[Rescued One]

What kind of power do you think Jesus gave Peter when Jesus gave Peter the 'keys of the kingdom of heaven'?

Our leaders have the same power. This power must exist on earth to grow and govern the people of the Church of Jesus Christ. Jesus gave it, beause he knew he would not be here to judge all things and so he found good men to do this job, his apostles.

Same today, whether you believe it or like it or not. It is in the bible so you should believe it, if you truly think the bible is of God.

The Mormon interpretation of the Bible is not trustworthy.

Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[He is the way]

The Mormon interpretation of the Bible is not trustworthy.

Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It is very important to know God:

(New Testament | John 17:1 - 3)

1 THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(New Testament | 1 John 2:3 - 6)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Who loves Jesus Christ enough to keep His commandments of LOVE? So let us LOVE God and LOVE our neighbor. ALL of the commandments are based on these two commandments. We should also walk as He walked. It is our duty to do the works!

 

[Rescued One]

And if a person is a Christian, God has made Himself known to that person.

 

[Rescued One]

It is very important to know God:

(New Testament | John 17:1 - 3)

1 THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(New Testament | 1 John 2:3 - 6)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Who loves Jesus Christ enough to keep His commandments of LOVE? So let us LOVE God and LOVE our neighbor. ALL of the commandments are based on these two commandments. We should also walk as He walked. It is our duty to do the works!

God sent His Son to pay for our sins. We can't save ourselves. Our works are the result of God working in us. The person who loves God doesn't proclaim that everyone must spend hours and hours working for the church, researching documents and doing temple work for those who have died, visiting the sick, the elderly, those in prison, attending multiple meetings, teaching your children, accepting positions within the church to teach other members; no one can do everything. God gives different tasks to different Christians.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Can you point out where you made this statement?

See post 90.

 

[He is the way]

And if a person is a Christian, God has made Himself known to that person.

Only if they keep the commandments, otherwise they CAN'T know Him.

 

[He is the way]

God sent His Son to pay for our sins. We can't save ourselves. Our works are the result of God working in us. The person who loves God doesn't proclaim that everyone must spend hours and hours working for the church, researching documents and doing temple work for those who have died, visiting the sick, the elderly, those in prison, attending multiple meetings, teaching your children, accepting positions within the church to teach other members; no one can do everything. God gives different tasks to different Christians.

It is true that we can't save ourselves, we don't say that we can save ourselves. Even the topic of this thread is wrong. We know that we can't earn grace. Grace is a gift given to those who obey Jesus Christ and keep the commandments. It is our duty to do the works or end up in hell like the rich man who didn't help Lazarus. You should know fine well what will happen to unprofitable servants:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:30)

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Not very many will be saved:

(New Testament | Matthew 7:13 - 20)

13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

[Rescued One]

We don't even allow the Mormon mother or father of a daughter who is being married in the temple if her parents does not have a recommend to go to the temple.

The point is, you have to have a recommend to get into the temple. If a baptist wants to go to the temple with their son or daughter, then all they have to do is get a recommend, and they can go.

If you reject the temple and do no want a recommend, then you cannot go to the wedding ceremony.

That is judgmental.

 

[Rescued One]

It is true that we can't save ourselves, we don't say that we can save ourselves. Even the topic of this thread is wrong. We know that we can't earn grace. Grace is a gift given to those who obey Jesus Christ and keep the commandments. It is our duty to do the works or end up in hell like the rich man who didn't help Lazarus...

The rich man was not a Christian. Salvation comes only through faith in Christ. Not one person can produce fruit that endures apart from faith in Christ.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.