The fundamental question: How did Jesus' death atone for our sins?

[FireDragon76]

I don't think God needs a sacrifice to forgive us, indeed, that would limit God's omnipotence and freedom and is an idea unworthy of him. It's more like, we need a sacrifice to make peace with God. Jesus's sacrifice is God giving us forgiveness in a form we can understand, given how big of a mess we made of the world. Jesus has to become one of us in all the horror and messiness of human life. Including being the one that we kill in our frustration, trying to appease a frequently mysterious and remote God. Well, moralism didn't work out so well for Israel, their religious leaders just became big hypocrites and in fact were motivated to kill Jesus because he threatened their system of religion, so like Lutheran Pastor Nadia Bolz-Weber put it, the Cross is God in Jesus saying I'd rather die than be in your kind of sin-tracking business.


There has to be a sacrifice so scandalous it questions our basic premise of religion as appeasing God, of trying to make him love us despite the fact we know we can do some horrible things, and usually do not feel worthy of love. As a Lutheran, I don't believe religion is about appeasing God. I believe true religion is about receiving the grace of God, the gift of eternal life, and in response living your life loving God and your neighbor.

There are other possible meanings of the cross too, like victory over death, or identification with suffering and the frequent absence of God . There's not just one meaning that is true for everyone.

 

[Serving Zion]

OP, I love where you are coming from! You are guarding your values and questioning that which doesn't make sense, but also you have given God the benefit over the doubts, being patient and expecting to find the true knowledge in time. You know in your heart that God loves us and is righteous, but you can't reconcile how a loving, righteous God could be pleased that an innocent one should suffer for a guilty one.

We are suffering by being amongst 2,000 years of apostasy, that makes the doctrine of salvation vastly over-simplistic and not well understood. For example 2 Peter 2:1-3, where St. Peter writes of false teachers introducing destructive heresies that would bring the way of truth into disrepute. One such destructive heresy is, as you have identified, an idea that God cannot forgive unless a life is taken.

Rather, all of God's attitude through the prophets is, that God requires our repentance.

Love keeps no record of wrongs. (1 John 4:16, 1 Corinthians 13:5). God does not need to execute punishment to appease His wrath. Instead, His wrath is appeased by our willingness to do the right thing. Examples such as Ezekiel 18:23 and Isaiah 1:11-17 show us that He desires us to choose good and reject bad.

There is no way to pay-off some debt that has been accrued by past errors, because what has already been done cannot be undone. Two wrongs do not make a right. Accepting that we have been wrong and choosing instead to do right, is what we call "repentance".

Essentially, sin causes resentment in the ones who are wronged. Only by preventing that resentment, the world can be fixed. There is no way to take away resentment except for forgiveness, and there is no way to forgive without letting the past be the past. Sometimes, human reasoning finds that if the sinner has to suffer punishment, then the victim can have some short-term relief, and that might help the victim to put the past behind them. But they will still need to let the past be the past in order to forgive.

Therefore, shedding of Christ's blood cannot really make forgiveness any easier for God. In fact, it just goes to show the extent of love that God has for us, that He even gave up His only-begotten, hoping that we will come to repentance so that He can forgive us with His whole heart.

As it so happens, we humans are born into a world of a fallen state where we are encouraged and taught to become sinners before we even know it. God finds that some of us do in fact commit to repentance when we realise that our sinfulness is actually not a good way to be.

God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:8

In this way, the gift of life to us through the way of Jesus is greater than the death to us through the way of sin (Romans 5:15), because Jesus' sacrifice empowers us to overcome sin (John 1:12-13).

Where a blood sacrifice is made in the Old Testament, it is not as the irreverent objectification of animal life as the way of the nations today. Rather, for the holy ones of ancient Israel, animal life was seen as innocent and to be respected - these simple creatures are without sin, being those which we as the image of God are to rule over responsibly. The blood of an animal is seen as innocent blood. Therefore a certain remorse comes upon them as they acknowledge the innocent is to suffer and die on account of the guilty.

However, we observe that by the time Jesus' ministry had begun, the nation of Israel had adopted many unholy customs from it's integration with the idolatrous nations, against God's command. The temple had become operational not as a place of worship and reverent prayer, but as a transactional machine (Luke 19:45-48).

This is how St. Paul is able to write in Hebrews 10:4 that it is impossible for the blood of animals to take away sins, and goes on to write in Hebrews 10:29 that the blood of Jesus which was sacrificed by God in order we might live (Malachi 4:5-6, Amos 5:18, John 15:13) - (being innocent blood sacrificed for the sake of sinners who would yet repent), the blood of Christ being no such common thing as that of an animal.

In this way, every time we struggle against a temptation to sin, we remember that to do sin is to trample the blood of Christ underfoot, to insult the spirit of grace by which we were sanctified, to regard the blood of The Only-Begotten Son of God as a common thing.

This is how Hebrews 7:22 states that Jesus is the guarantor for a better covenant - one which is able to truly and completely purge sin from our very desires (Hebrews 10:1, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 1:9, Romans 6:22).

My biggest question would be how exactly Jesus' death on the cross atoned for the sins of humanity.

Hebrews 10:26-27 and 1 Corinthians 6:20 : It is now unthinkable that we should consider doing sin, rather we will always hate sin on account of our love for God and The Lord Jesus Christ.

What confuses me is why God would send his only son to Earth as a sacrifice on behalf of humanity when He was the one demanding the sacrifice in the first place.

If you would insist, I request to see the scripture that you view to support this idea "He was the one demanding the sacrifice in the first place."

It always sounds to me like He basically made a sacrifice to Himself to save mankind from His own wrath, which doesn't make any sense.

Indeed.

"Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, for many false prophets have gone into the world."
"This is how the world will know that you are my disciples: if you have love for one another."

I also don't understand how a sacrifice would atone for humanity's sins anyway.

Why would God demand that someone die, or that animal sacrifices be made, to make up for sins? Why not something else?

Have you ever noticed that when we sin, we trigger another person to respond sinfully? Whether our selfishness to cut off the right-of-way in traffic causes them to become angry, or some lust causes her husband to become jealous? Well, when we sin, it causes a displacement of The Holy Spirit. An unholy spirit then comes to abide in us (as it does in those whom we trigger sin). Evil spirits are those who steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10). This is why we are commanded to be the living sacrifice (Romans 12:1), to turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). To intercede for the transgressors (Isaiah 53:12), to live the way Jesus Christ lived, suffering to forgive others their sin, loving and healing people, because this is what it means to be His disciple (ie, Isaiah 53:3-5).

Where there is not provision for our sin to be absorbed (ie, if we have sinned against one who is not of Godly-nature), then God provides a sacrifice by way of blood, that the accuser (our spiritual enemy - the evil that has come to be inside our victim) may be silenced. We have our guilt atoned for in God's view, which gives us the strength of character (conviction, vindication/righteousness - Isaiah 54:17) so we might heal that victim's resentment. We are deeply regretful that our sin has brought suffering and death. We learn how to overcome such sin so that we do not make victims again through future occurrences.

X-Pres wants a minimal amount of theological jargon and preaching in our responses. He wants a rational philosophically sound explanation of how Jesus' atonement mediates divine justice and forgiveness.

Messianic prophecies show that Jesus Christ will overcome the enemy and redeem the world from the cursed generation that sin has yielded it unto, but also that His life was cut short. Because the conditions around His execution were unjust, God has raised Him to rule from heaven while the remainder of His work is completed. While Jesus rules in heaven, we represent Him on earth, to go, do and say what He requires of us, that His Messianic duties are completed. Because we enter into covenant with Him, to be His slaves, then we have become His property. We hand to Him the issue of our past sin, where He pleads before God on our behalf against the accuser (1 John 2:1, Romans 6:4-7), and we begin our life of service to God with a clean record and a new appreciation for the importance to live a life that is holy and blameless (1 Peter 3:21).

 

[adhidw]

I posted this in my introduction thread (link below) and decided to move it here:

Starting from scratch...



I've wrestled with this for a long time and feel that it's the main thing holding me back from being able to rightly call myself a Christian, and I have yet to come across an answer that made sense.

(Note: If you answer, please try to avoid using too many religious terms that a layman wouldn't know. I'm pretty new to this. Thanks!)

Why does God create us ?.

Isa43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him

We know that God is eternal, and we are perishable creatures , so surely His goal (bring glory to Him) is not for us who live in limited time in this perishable planet instead of us in NHNE which live eternally .

Then what’s for we have to be created in this perishable realm first before be move to the eternal realm ?.
For growth, only this perishable realm has possibility in growing , then we insert a question ; cannot God use His faithful angels (granted the glorious bodies and put them in the eternal land ) to bring glory to Him ?. no they cannot.

Let’s see these allegories model;
1 God created His people (recorded in the book of life before the creation of the world) at once, there was no forbidden tree, there was no devil , in this option : His people surely will live forever , millions years later they are asked : How can you all live peacefully in a glory without decease without pain ? surely they answer “ Surely , We were created like resemble to God” , does their answer brings glory to God? (full state similar to: if God took His faithful angels with glorious body and placed in NHNE) .

2 God created His people at once, There was the forbidden tree where the fruit not allowed to be eaten, there was no devil ( His people already in full state/ there was nothing to do with the devil), millions years later God came to them and judged , all the rebels died in that time, now the rest only the obedient ones , then they are asked : How can you live in a glory not like them who were thrown to the lof ? (similar to: when God created His angels with the eternal bodies /they were all full state) surely they answer “ surely, we are all more obedient than them”, does their answer bring glory to God?.

3 God creates as written in the bible (zero state), then the winners (Rev3:5) / the saveds are asked in NHNE : How can you live in a glory with God , not like the devils and the losers who are thrown to the lof , surely they answer” actually there is nothing more within us than they are ,if they are thrown to the lof , we shall be thrown too ( Isa64:6, Isa26:12, rev19:8 ), but if now we live in this eternal land peacefully that all comes from His Glory only”, does their answer bring glory to God?.

Isa64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


Isa26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.


Rev19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Angels = full state ( have full knowledge, and full abilities ).
Adam, Eve, Abel, Seth,……, Noah, …….., Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, ……last name in the book of life = His people = He intended to create physically to bring glory to Him = they were chosen already before the creation of the world = they should be sent first to the perishable earth for their growth = they were all zero state (with no knowledge and with no ability).


Men can bring glory to God , when they understood and admitted that “ salvation is only by God’s Grace “ …so the scriptures (OT and NT) were given for that purpose.

After A and E were kicked out from Eden and had their offspring in this perishable realm no one realized and admitted that they were spiritually dead in the eyes of God, as time went by God gave them hundreds of law the Torah laws, actually God wanted them to realize about their spiritually dead in the eyes of God but no one admitted it.

Let’s us review what was the reason God drove them out from Eden?.
Wasn’t it about their incapability to keep not eat the fruit of the tree of life intentionally or in other words they surely ate the fruits, they and all their offspring without exception or they surely failed to fulfill just only this simple ordinance.
How could they feel proud that they surely fulfill the Torah laws which were more more complicated than the previous one? Silly .

Then God felt that the time given to the men for verification about their dead was enough and men not realized either , so He should come to open the men eyes by force ---> as the Messiah/ the Redeemer/ the Savoir , Actually God said in OT that men surely need a Savoir ,a Redeemer for their own salvation so this is a necessity and He is God Himself ( Isa43:3 ,43:11 ,47:4 ,63:16 ).

In OT have already said that man is sanctified by sprinkling the blood of the sacrifice lamb were done by the priest = being saved = resurrecting from dead , these were the tasks that the messiah should demonstrate in order men could understand that their salvation is only by God’s Grace .

We sum them as :” Men ,You will never save your self or others what ever effort you may try, cause the salvation is only by God’s grace (Eph2:8) , that is what I want to demonstrate to you, I will be killed and three days later I shall resurrect from dead that you may know : the sacrifice blood is my blood = God blood , the priest is me as manifestation of God, the man who is sanctified will be acted by Me that shows you if the salvation is only for the chosen ( not man who says want , but only he or she whom the heart is made to want /names that were written already before the creation of the world in the book of life ) , then by this event comes to pass you will understand that the salvation is only by God’s Grace, and you that believe (believe if this event is really manifestation of God’s grace ) is the winner you shall be resurrected too in the last day, and you that don’t believe you are the loser cause you will surely say that I am not God Him self , and consider Me as created being as you are , then if I am created being surely I am spiritually dead too as you are then I shall reach My salvation too by this event (I shall pay my own sins by this event) means this event surely not a manifestation of God’s Grace or there is no premise “salvation is only by God’s Grace “ and every one shall pay their sins by their own effort , then why can’t you fulfill the Torah laws? , why am I said savoir? (Luk2:11), why am I said Redeemer? (Eph1:7), you that don’t believe you are really a loser certainly you are walking to the lof “.

Isa43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee

Isa43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior

Isa47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel

Isa63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Rev1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

Rev5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation


Luk2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord

Eph1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Hence by His demonstration from that day men began to know that the salvation is only by God Grace by this understanding means men can bring glory to God , then if men were stated as saved meant all their sins were atoned entirely ----> OP’s question is answered.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Please see my post #53!

 

[Ron Gurley]

Q: Why does/did (the TRI-UNE) God "create" us (mankind) ?
A: To bring glory to Himself !

1 Chronicles 16:29
Ascribe to the Lord the glory due His name; Bring an offering, and come before Him; Worship the Lord in holy array.
Psalm 96:8
Ascribe to the Lord the glory of His name; Bring an offering and come into His courts.
Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
John 17:5
Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

 

[bling]

Please see my post #53!

Read my post 58

 

[Ron Gurley]

Post #58 had too many words, not enough Scripture...IMO

 

[Ron Gurley]

OP Q: How did Jesus' death "atone" for our sins?
A: The voluntarily shed Holy blood of Jesus the Christ, The Divine Messiah, Son of God, Son of Man, The God-Man on the unjust Cross paid the price required and covered ALL sin of ALL men for ALL time.

Bleeding of Jesus' body/soul is the most OBVIOUS cause of death (autopsy). Flogging, beating, crown of thorns, carrying cross, dehydration, crucifixion through wrists and feet tendons, spear?

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the (new) covenant, which is poured out for many (who accept) FOR forgiveness of sins.

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus
you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 10:19
Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence
to enter the holy place (presence of God) by the blood of Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,
and to the (His) sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead
the great Shepherd of the sheep
through the blood of the eternal covenant,
even Jesus our Lord,

1 Peter 1:2 ...a peek at the TRI-UNE GOD?
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
by the sanctifying work of (God) the (Holy) Spirit,
to obey (God the Son) Jesus Christ
and be sprinkled with His blood:
May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

1 John 1:7
but if we (believers) walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light,
we have fellowship with one another, and
the blood of Jesus His Son CLEANSES (washes away) us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ,
the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

Luke 22:19
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying,
"This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

1 Corinthians 11:24-25
and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said,
"This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying,
"This cup is the new covenant in My blood;
do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

SEE: post #53 for Scripture supporting the "substitutionary atonement" doctrine.
ALSO: Substitutionary atonement - Wikipedia

 

[aiki]

"My biggest question would be how exactly Jesus' death on the cross atoned for the sins of humanity."

God has so ordained that in His universe "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." Why? I don't know. And God doesn't offer much of a rationale for His rule. Like gravity or our carbon-based physical forms, it's just the way He decided it would be. Is God obliged to give us a rationale for His choices as Creator? I don't see how. Do His actions and rules always have to be perfectly clear and acceptable to us before He enacts or institutes them? Not that I can see. Anyway, as a consequence of God's rule concerning the remission of sin, blood had to be shed if sin-prone humans were to atone for their wickedness. Mercifully, early on God allowed the blood of animals to cover human sin. But such shedding of blood had to be regularly repeated which was a less than perfect solution to the need for atonement for mankind's evil. To fully, perfectly atone once-and-for-all for sin, God shed His own blood on a cross. Divine blood both perfect and infinite satisfied for all time God's demand for sin's atonement - something no created creature could ever accomplish.

"What confuses me is why God would send his only son to Earth as a sacrifice on behalf of humanity when He was the one demanding the sacrifice in the first place."

Because God did not set Himself above His own law. He did not institute the rules and consequences governing morality only to flout them when it became difficult to satisfy them. Inasmuch as God's Moral Law is a reflection of His own moral nature, He could not act in contradiction to, or circumvention of, that Law. And so, knowing we could never properly atone for our sin ourselves, and being a merciful, gracious and loving God, He took on human form and died in atonement for our sin in our stead.

"It always sounds to me like He basically made a sacrifice to Himself to save mankind from His own wrath, which doesn't make any sense."

Christ's sacrifice on the cross was for the expiation of the sin of humanity, not to satisfy the wrath of God. His sacrifice was not to God but for sin.

"I also don't understand how a sacrifice would atone for humanity's sins anyway. Why would God demand that someone die, or that animal sacrifices be made, to make up for sins? Why not something else?"

Why is the sky blue? Why didn't God make it purple or yellow? Why are planets made of inorganic matter? Why didn't God make them of chocolate or swiss cheese? Why do humans have only one nose and two eyes? Why didn't God give us ten eyes and three noses or no eyes and noses at all? These sorts of "why?" questions are both endless and an exercise in futility. God made His universe the way He made it. As the Maker of the universe, that's His prerogative. And He isn't the least obliged to give us any explanation as to why He made things as they are. He's God. 'Nuff said.

Selah.

 

[bling]

"My biggest question would be how exactly Jesus' death on the cross atoned for the sins of humanity."

God has so ordained that in His universe "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." Why? I don't know. And God doesn't offer much of a rationale for His rule. Like gravity or our carbon-based physical forms, it's just the way He decided it would be. Is God obliged to give us a rationale for His choices as Creator? I don't see how. Do His actions and rules always have to be perfectly clear and acceptable to us before He enacts or institutes them? Not that I can see. Anyway, as a consequence of God's rule concerning the remission of sin, blood had to be shed if sin-prone humans were to atone for their wickedness. Mercifully, early on God allowed the blood of animals to cover human sin. But such shedding of blood had to be regularly repeated which was a less than perfect solution to the need for atonement for mankind's evil. To fully, perfectly atone once-and-for-all for sin, God shed His own blood on a cross. Divine blood both perfect and infinite satisfied for all time God's demand for sin's atonement - something no created creature could ever accomplish.

"What confuses me is why God would send his only son to Earth as a sacrifice on behalf of humanity when He was the one demanding the sacrifice in the first place."

Because God did not set Himself above His own law. He did not institute the rules and consequences governing morality only to flout them when it became difficult to satisfy them. Inasmuch as God's Moral Law is a reflection of His own moral nature, He could not act in contradiction to, or circumvention of, that Law. And so, knowing we could never properly atone for our sin ourselves, and being a merciful, gracious and loving God, He took on human form and died in atonement for our sin in our stead.

"It always sounds to me like He basically made a sacrifice to Himself to save mankind from His own wrath, which doesn't make any sense."

Christ's sacrifice on the cross was for the expiation of the sin of humanity, not to satisfy the wrath of God. His sacrifice was not to God but for sin.

"I also don't understand how a sacrifice would atone for humanity's sins anyway. Why would God demand that someone die, or that animal sacrifices be made, to make up for sins? Why not something else?"

Why is the sky blue? Why didn't God make it purple or yellow? Why are planets made of inorganic matter? Why didn't God make them of chocolate or swiss cheese? Why do humans have only one nose and two eyes? Why didn't God give us ten eyes and three noses or no eyes and noses at all? These sorts of "why?" questions are both endless and an exercise in futility. God made His universe the way He made it. As the Maker of the universe, that's His prerogative. And He isn't the least obliged to give us any explanation as to why He made things as they are. He's God. 'Nuff said.

Selah.

So you think God is blood thirsty?

Read my post 58.

 

[aiki]

So you think God is blood thirsty?

Read my post 58.

I don't recall describing God this way anywhere in my last post... The Bible, however, teaches us:

Hebrews 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Matthew 26:28
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 20:28
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Romans 5:8-9
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Ephesians 1:5-7
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Selah.

 

[bling]

I don't recall describing God this way anywhere in my last post... The Bible, however, teaches us:

Hebrews 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Matthew 26:28
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 20:28
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Romans 5:8-9
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Ephesians 1:5-7
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Selah.

Let me ask you this way: "What does Christ being tortured, humiliated and murdered do for God" if it is not done to quench a thirst for blood?

 

[aiki]

Let me ask you this way: "What does Christ being tortured, humiliated and murdered do for God" if it is not done to quench a thirst for blood?

It satisfies the demands of His justice.

Selah.