The fundamental question: How did Jesus' death atone for our sins?

[XPres]

I posted this in my introduction thread (link below) and decided to move it here:

Starting from scratch...

1. My biggest question would be how exactly Jesus' death on the cross atoned for the sins of humanity. This has stumped me for a long time and I feel it's a huge road block. What confuses me is why God would send his only son to Earth as a sacrifice on behalf of humanity when He was the one demanding the sacrifice in the first place. It always sounds to me like He basically made a sacrifice to Himself to save mankind from His own wrath, which doesn't make any sense. I also don't understand how a sacrifice would atone for humanity's sins anyway. Why would God demand that someone die, or that animal sacrifices be made, to make up for sins? Why not something else?

I've wrestled with this for a long time and feel that it's the main thing holding me back from being able to rightly call myself a Christian, and I have yet to come across an answer that made sense.

(Note: If you answer, please try to avoid using too many religious terms that a layman wouldn't know. I'm pretty new to this. Thanks!)

 

[ewq1938]

In Judaism God required a spotless lamb to be sacrificed so sins could be forgiven. Jesus is a symbolic lamb and is spotless sin-wise so he fulfilled this animal sacrifice ritual once and for all so it never has to be done again.

 

[Adstar]

I posted this in my introduction thread (link below) and decided to move it here:

Starting from scratch...



I've wrestled with this for a long time and feel that it's the main thing holding me back from being able to rightly call myself a Christian, and I have yet to come across an answer that made sense.

(Note: If you answer, please try to avoid using too many religious terms that a layman wouldn't know. I'm pretty new to this. Thanks!)

The price of sin is death... It is the penalty..

God being perfect must be a perfect Judge and therefore must judge sin [transgressions of what is good]... Thus the second death must be upon all sinners upon the day of judgement.. [ second death= Eternal seperation from God in the eternal lake of fire] ..

So under this situation,Aall Humanity are doomed to be declared guilty of sin and will suffer the second death.. Because all humanity has sinned during their life times ( except for little innocent ones who have no sin) ..

Gods Solution.. Pay the penalty for Humanity by suffering the penatly of death thus paying the penalty for Humanity..

It is justice to have mercy upon the repentant..

Therefore Both the sacrafice / Atonement of the Redeemer (Jesus).. AND repentance of the sinner (human individuels) are both needed for forgivness to be justly given and recieved...

Because it would not be justice to grant Atonement for one who does not aknowledge their sin as sin and does not aknolwedge Gods Atonement as being needed for them to be Redeemed / Saved / have their penalty paid for..

 

[Adstar]

I will also add some more points:::

God is Perfect..

God cannot allow any imperfection to exist in His eternal perfect existence.. If He did then His eternal existence would no longer be perfect and thus God would be revealed as being imperfect for allowing it, to the heavenly Host (Angels) ... Angels and a particular the fallen angel satan / lucifer / devil... Thus the claim of satan that God is not justified to be the One and only God of all existence would have evidence support..

If God decided to destroy His human creation then satan can declare to the heavenly host (the other Angels) that God's creation was a failure because God had to destroy it all.. Thus again satan could say that God was not perfect or justified to be the one and only God of all existence..

So God must Demonstrate the legitimacy of His Godhood by Redeeming (saving ) His creation in a Way that fulfills the requirement of Perfect Justice. To end the satanic challenge to Gods Ultimate Authority and thus Justify His rightful position as God and also showing to the Angels why the satanic challenge is false...

 

[XPres]

So let's see if I understand this correctly...

God indeed did sacrifice Himself--in the form of His son-- for the sins of humanity, but He had a reason for doing it: He couldn't let his creation fail because that would undermine the fact that He was perfect and incapable of failure.

 

[ewq1938]

He couldn't let his creation fail because that would undermine the fact that He was perfect and incapable of failure.

I wouldn't include this per se'....most people will not be saved since Christ said only a few make it and the road to destruction was wide and populated and that doesn't make God a failure. People fail themselves. Our failures are not God's failures

 

[Winken]

I posted this in my introduction thread (link below) and decided to move it here:

Starting from scratch...



I've wrestled with this for a long time and feel that it's the main thing holding me back from being able to rightly call myself a Christian, and I have yet to come across an answer that made sense.

(Note: If you answer, please try to avoid using too many religious terms that a layman wouldn't know. I'm pretty new to this. Thanks!)

Before the beginning of space and time, GOD.

GOD, the Creator, created; He created Heaven and Earth.

He created people. He placed them in a special Garden. The only rule was "don't question your existence. I'll handle everything."

They questioned their existence. God said, "See that exit over there? You can leave." They did.

Their departure resulted in people doing their own thing, without any guidance from any source whatsoever. They made a complete mess of it.

Eventually, our Creator spoke to a man named Abram. He said "Abram, I want you to coral a bunch of people and lead them to a place I'll call the Promised Land." Abram said OK, assembled a group of folks who became known as Hebrews. He became known as Abraham. They set out toward the Promised Land. Along the way they began to grumble, moan and groan. Their calling had included the promise of Grace, the free Gift of God, in the Promised Land, no strings attached, known as the "Abrahamic Covenant." It included the promise of a Messiah (The Christ), who would dwell with them all of their days. It would be like a return to the special Garden. All they had to do was say "yes" to the Messiah. They exited their calling, abandoning their promised land in the process.

Our Creator then called a guy named Moses to take over. He said "Moses, lead my chosen to the Promised Land." God's chosen were a restless group. Along the way our Creator told Moses to coral them by carving out ten commandments. Moses carved them out. The Hebrews began to grumble, moan and groan. They violated every last one of the ten commandments. They came within view of the Promised Land, but couldn't cross over due to their own disobedience.

God said "I'm going down there." In the Person of Jesus He visited earth in a little town known as Bethlehem. 30 years later a guy named John went about announcing that the promised Messiah was right there among them. All they had to do was acknowledge Him. He would take care of all their grumblings, moanings and groanings since Day 1. They'd be set free from all their disobedience. They'd have a home known as the Kingdom of God right there on earth, starting out as .... guess what? The fulfillment of the promised land promise.

They rejected Him. They had Him nailed to the Cross. They didn't understand that in so doing the penalty for humankind's disobedience was forgiven. He took the guilt for their sins. They even rejected that.

Now our Creator said "I'm going to call that wicked Pharisee, Saul, to be my witness not only to the Hebrew folk (the Jews) but to the Gentiles (non-Jews) as well." And He did.

You can read about it right now, in Acts Chapter 9.

You can also read about eternal life in a brand new Garden known as Heaven. Turn over to Romans 10:8-13, then to Romans 8:1. Now check out John 5:24, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3:6-17. There's a whole lot more of those promises. Once you get past Romans 10:8-13, you'll be in the Promised Land forever. And you'll never grumble, moan and groan.

 

[miamited]

Hi xpres,

I believe the easy answer for any of us to accept is that Jesus' Father and our Father and Creator has said so. Sometimes it's easier just to believe God and be done with it. We really don't need to know all the why's, how's and wherefore's. Our God and Creator created this realm in six days. I find it much easier just to believe His testimony concerning it than to try, through the knowledge of the feeble minds of men, to figure out 'how' He did it.

I know that I am like a spawning salmon swimming against a raging river rapid in this, but...

The sin of Eve was that she couldn't be satisfied with the knowledge that God had given her. God had told them that eating the fruit would give them the knowledge of good and evil.

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Even Satan knew that it was the consequences of this knowledge of good and evil from which God was trying to spare Adam and Eve.

“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

If the not understanding the 'why' Jesus' sacrifice can atone for your sin is keeping you from God, then I'd say you don't have much trust in Him anyway. One can only trust God, if they believe God.

I hope that explanation wasn't too religious for you.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Adstar]

So let's see if I understand this correctly...

God indeed did sacrifice Himself--in the form of His son-- for the sins of humanity, but He had a reason for doing it: He couldn't let his creation fail because that would undermine the fact that He was perfect and incapable of failure.

He had to demonstrate Why God can be the Only God.. If God had just zapped satan then would the Angels have willingly aknowledged God as the One and only True God.. Or would they have just submitted out of fear of His ultimate power? The Angels would have looked upon God as being unjustified but they would have simply had to accept the situation of being ruled by a all powerful dictator..

By creating the universe and humanity and by allowing satan sabotarge attempt and then God resolving the problem in a Just and perfect Way.. God has defeated the satanic challenge by a demonstration of His perfect Love and Perfect Wisdom thus winning the willing aknowledgement of all creation as being the justified one and only God of all existence..

 

[mark kennedy]

I posted this in my introduction thread (link below) and decided to move it here:

Starting from scratch...



I've wrestled with this for a long time and feel that it's the main thing holding me back from being able to rightly call myself a Christian, and I have yet to come across an answer that made sense.

(Note: If you answer, please try to avoid using too many religious terms that a layman wouldn't know. I'm pretty new to this. Thanks!)

Not an easy question, one that I struggled with myself but here goes. God is righteous and the only source for righteousness is God himself. God had to make sin obvious in a way that was undeniable so he demonstrated how sin treated him, incarnate and without blame.

 

[Deadworm]

If I understand X-Pres's issues correctly here, posters have so far done little more than spout the doctrinal clichés that have given rise to X-Pres's doubts in the first place. His real issues are far more fundamental. Why would God want blood sacrifice in the first place? Is God bloodthirsty? We are all responsible for our own sins and mistakes. So why should an innocent lamb or Jesus as the Lamb of God have to suffer for our sins?
Why does God need to take His wrath out on an innocent Jesus? What satisfaction does God get out of that? In what sense is that justice in any way we can understand the concept? Why couldn't God just offer us grace and forgiveness in response to our repentance? X-Pres, did I get that right? Or would you want to alter aspects of my characterization of your issues with atonement?

 

[mark kennedy]

If I understand X-Pres's issues correctly here, posters have so far done little more than spout the doctrinal clichés that have given rise to X-Pres's doubts in the first place. His real issues are far more fundamental. Why would God want blood sacrifice in the first place? Is God bloodthirsty? We are all responsible for our own sins and mistakes. So why should an innocent lamb or Jesus as the Lamb of God have to suffer for our sins?
Why does God need to take His wrath out on an innocent Jesus? What satisfaction does God get out of that? In what sense is that justice in any way we can understand the concept? Why couldn't God just offer us grace and forgiveness in response to our repentance? X-Pres, did I get that right? Or would you want to alter aspects of my characterization of your issues with atonement?

I would like to understand this better, what else would you like to share here? I should say, I'm an evangelical and I'm all in favor of someone finding God, in spite of what reservations I might have about how. Please feel free to elaborate, I'm very interested.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[truefiction1]

The answer is "God is Love". The Cross, which produces the "fruit of the tree of Life" which we partake of and Who saves us, is the Way. Take up your own crosses and follow, and you will come to see God as God Truly is, and to know God, having become by grace as God is by nature.

Atonement is not "understood", it is known directly -- face to face in intimate relationship with the only True God -- by personal experience only. Verbal explanations of Redemption are merely metaphors: they are not scientific formulas for Salvation. Communion with God alone is salvation. Communion with God transcends intellectual circumspection, and so Atonement does also.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[SkyWriting]

I posted this in my introduction thread (link below) and decided to move it here:Starting from scratch...
I've wrestled with this for a long time and feel that it's the main thing holding me back from being able to rightly call myself a Christian, and I have yet to come across an answer that made sense.(Note: If you answer, please try to avoid using too many religious terms that a layman wouldn't know. I'm pretty new to this. Thanks!)

We must start with a premise: The wages of sin is death.

So the premise is that while God enjoys company, He is not compatible
with anything less than perfection. That's the hard part to swallow.

Anything less than perfection will dissolve or cease to exist when in the
presence of God. Think Indiana Jones.

So God gave man the option to not be perfect. The benefit to
us is that we voluntarily love God. Evidently love by choice
is better than a love/slave.

So, given that we chose imperfection as a way of life...what to do?
All men sin, so they must all suffer death.

So to bridge this chasm, God sent his only Son to die for our Sins.

The "wages" of sin is death. Meaning if you sin, the "normal payment"
for even one such sin is death.

So Jesus was sent to pay the price for all our sins.
The only "work" needed is to accept His death as sufficient.

 

[Deadworm]

X-Pres wants a minimal amount of theological jargon and preaching in our responses. He wants a rational philosophically sound explanation of how Jesus' atonement mediates divine justice and forgiveness. In my discussion with him, I surmise that he would respond the way I presume to speak for him below, but I'm eager for him to correct my assumptions and clarify his burning questions on the atonement question.

Sky W: "We must start with a premise: The wages of sin is death.
But for XPres, it is precisely that premise that is problematic.

Sky W: "So the premise is that while God enjoys company, He is not compatible with anything less than perfection. That's the hard part to swallow."

So X-Pres asks, "Why would God make an imperfect universe with so much unfair suffering and imperfection and then demand perfection?" We remain imperfect after Jesus' death and even after we believe in Him. So how is it rational to suppose that God looks on those who trust in Jesus' atonement, as if they are perfect? Why would God do that? If you say, "For love," then why not just love us enough to forgive us without the perfection demand?

Sky W: "So to bridge this chasm, God sent his only Son to die for our Sins."

So X-Pres asks, "How can Jesus do that even in principle? Does God need to take out His anger on a scapegoat like Jesus? How is that justice? How can anyone, even God's Son, take responsibility for my guilt?"

Sky W.: "So Jesus was sent to pay the price for all our sins."

So X-Pres asks: "What exactly does that mean? How can Jesus' death pay any "price," let alone the price for our sins?
Does God say, "People have sinned, and I demand blood--someone else's blood, if necessary?" If I am responsible for my own mistakes, how can anyone, even God's Son, pay the penalty for MY sin? That, I believe is X-Pres's issue. You are preaching jargon-ridden doctrine and he wants rational explanation.

insigh4u: "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin."

So X-Pres asks: "You are quoting Scripture and make Jesus sound blood-thirsty." How does it make logical sense for bloodshed to be a necessary condition for divine pardon? Why can't we just repent and have God forgive us? If you reply, "But someone or something has to die for our sin, X-Pres's question is "Why?"

 

[Chriliman]

I posted this in my introduction thread (link below) and decided to move it here:

Starting from scratch...



I've wrestled with this for a long time and feel that it's the main thing holding me back from being able to rightly call myself a Christian, and I have yet to come across an answer that made sense.

(Note: If you answer, please try to avoid using too many religious terms that a layman wouldn't know. I'm pretty new to this. Thanks!)

The cross is God's reaction to mans wrath.

The wrath of God is against that which causes deception, destruction, suffering and death and the way in which he overcame these things was to subjective himself to them on the cross.

 

[XPres]

@Deadworm is spot on in his above post. There have been some good answers so far, but for the most part they didn't get to the roots of my questions. I'd suggest reading Deadworm's take on it before posting, because he articulated it better than I could in the OP.

Hi xpres,

I believe the easy answer for any of us to accept is that Jesus' Father and our Father and Creator has said so. Sometimes it's easier just to believe God and be done with it. We really don't need to know all the why's, how's and wherefore's. Our God and Creator created this realm in six days. I find it much easier just to believe His testimony concerning it than to try, through the knowledge of the feeble minds of men, to figure out 'how' He did it.

I know that I am like a spawning salmon swimming against a raging river rapid in this, but...

The sin of Eve was that she couldn't be satisfied with the knowledge that God had given her. God had told them that eating the fruit would give them the knowledge of good and evil.

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Even Satan knew that it was the consequences of this knowledge of good and evil from which God was trying to spare Adam and Eve.

So I'm distrusting God by trying to understand a fundamental Christian principle? That doesn't sound right. The story of Jesus' life and death was recorded in the Bible for all to read; why would this have been done if not to allow mankind to understand what happened? What would be the point of recording any of it if it was never meant to be read and understood? And how can you have a relationship with God if you don't know Him and can't comprehend His ways?

 

[truefiction1]

@Deadworm is spot on in his above post. There have been some good answers so far, but for the most part they didn't get to the roots of my questions. I'd suggest reading Deadworm's take on it before posting, because he articulated it better than I could in the OP.



So I'm distrusting God by trying to understand a fundamental Christian principle? That doesn't sound right. The story of Jesus' life and death was recorded in the Bible for all to read; why would this have been done if not to allow mankind to understand what happened? What would be the point of recording any of it if it was never meant to be read and understood? And how can you have a relationship with God if you don't know Him and can't comprehend His ways?

Every human being experiences existential guilt, because of death. The Cross shows that God does not hold us guilty, because God Himself dies to give us the hope of Eternal Life, which His own Resurrection which He will extend to all at the end of the ages. That is why I said in the beginning that the answer is "God is Love".

Believe in the Son and repent of sin in order to come to know God's mercy and forgiveness: to know God even as you are known by Him. Salvation is not a mathematical formula with one component being the death of Christ on the Cross. Salvation is personal experience of Communion with God. No one can give you this experience packaged up in words and explanations. Such dead belief can be had by any intelligent being, and has no power to save.

"how can you have a relationship with God if you don't know Him and can't comprehend His ways?"

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:9)

We'll know God to the extent that we know how to be merciful and to forgive even our enemies and those who hurt and hate us.

 

[Deadworm]

X-Pres's atonement issues are very complex and a decent reply runs the risk of losing the forest in the trees. So it seems initially best to outline just 10 theses that can be defended on biblical grounds and then document each thesis later.

(1) Anthropological studies demonstrate that religious rituals and systems of sacrifice are universal in antiquity. Human regulation of values and behavior needs the structure that rituals rich in symbolism provide. This symbolism may even express archetypes that have evolved in the human psyche.

(2) Divine truth must be revealed through a process of progressive revelation. Cultural biases and ritual practices are deeply ingrained and any efforts to repudiate them are generally rejected as divinely unauthorized. So we must consider the possibility that God adapts His revelation to rituals which He might otherwise not approve so as to reach people.

(3) God makes it clear that He never authorized the sacrifice system in the Law of Moses in the first place! Rather, He gradually reveals His priorities through progressive revelation, so that the sacrifice system can be adapted to serve His spiritual and ethical purposes.

(4) Atoning rituals are valued by God only when they serve as outward demonstrations of an inner spiritual reality. When Israel's atonement rituals fail to demonstrate an outward manifestation of inner transformation, gratitude and love for God, and ethical conduct. God lifts the veil of His true priorities and rejects, even ridicules, the rituals.

(5) The Bible often uses the language of atoning sacrifice to express spiritual virtues and qualities in order to reinforce the worthlessness of a mechanical performance of such rituals.

(6) Christ's incarnation addresses the problem of how to authenticate God's willingness to work within the structure of Jewish atonement theology and practice, and yet, demonstrate that this practice has served its purpose and must now be abolished in favor of something better.

(7) Jesus is born at the ideal time because, as He knows, the Jerusalem Temple is about to be destroyed, so that atonement rituals will have to end. Awareness of this impending disaster opens the door for believers to understand Jesus' death as the sacrifice to end all sacrifices.

(8) Through progressive revelation, God wants to end the sacrifice system in a way that acknowledges its prior validity in terms of symbolic typology that finds fulfillment in Jesus' atoning death on the cross. This fulfillment is made possible by Jesus' mission to fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah 53 of a Suffering Servant whose horrible death will atone for the sins of God's people. Jesus' atoning mission can now be embraced because the Judaism of His day has grown to accept the concept of righteous martyrs (not just animals) atoning for the sins of Israel.

(9) Jesus' crucifixion functions as an atoning death in 2 ways:
(a) "Atonement" can be understood as "at-one-ment. Jesus' atoning death means that, by grace through faith, we are no longer separated from redemptive fellowship with God. I love this admittedly hokey way of expressing this concept:
Jesus' crucifixion means that God buries our sins in the sea of His forgetfulness and puts up a sign that reads "No Fishing!" So when we wallow in guilt, we are fishing in a No Fishing zone and disrespecting the awesome beauty of God's grace.

(b) Jesus can be our sin bearer in the sense that He is God incarnate and, as such, God can demonstrate through Jesus' crucifixion that God is taking responsibility (not blame!) for creating us with our sinful natures, and in so doing, is offering us salvation by grace (not merit) when we embrace God's claim that He will no longer hold us accountable for our sinful past, if we live lives that constantly make our gratitude real for this offer of salvation.

(10) Regular participation in Communion serves 2 purposes:
(a) If taken with the right attitude and expectation, Holy Communion renews an intimate connection with the Risen Lord. In Jesus' day, mystery religions used sacred meals as a tool to participate in the death of a dying and rising god. Communion allows early Christians to take advantage of that expectation, which may well have a deeply ingrained archetypal connection in the human unconscious. Communion gives concrete expression to biblical commands to feed on God, to taste the goodness of His presence, and to drink in His Holy Spirit.

(b) As already mentioned, "atonement" can be construed as "at-one-ment. For St. Paul, Communion bread has a twofold meaning: Jesus' body on the cross and the church as the corporate Body of Christ. So an intimate connection with Christ through Communion is only possible if such participation is an authentic expression of the bonds of unity and love with the other believers. Otherwise, Communion is transformed into an irreverent act and, warns Paul, can even be harmful to your health!